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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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So had the MOT test today, and it failed on emissions...

They tested it as a "Catalyst Equipped - closed loop vehicle", even though I told them it was running on LPG... They said they tested on both petrol AND LPG and it failed both times.

Just got home and checked last year's paperwork (was tested at the same place) and it was tested as a non-catalyst vehicle, with fuel type listed as LPG - and passed, with the CO values pretty close to what they were this year...

I called them up and booked a retest for tomorrow and told them it was tested incorrectly - which they didn't like being told, they just said "it's been tested on both and if it's failed, then it's failed"... despite the past 2 years being tested as a non-cat vehicle on LPG.

Am I correct in thinking they've tested it incorrectly? They said there were emissions changes this year, but I thought that only affected Diesel vehicles with DPF and things like that.

I've been having a trawl of the internet, but can't find anything out there on LPG vehicles and emissions testing - as if it should be done as a non-cat test, then I'd like to go back in there tomorrow with the previous 2 years test results and something in black and white to say what it should be tested as. I noticed the testers name was different this year to the past 2 years, so wonder if the guy doesn't really know what he's doing!

It also failed on the crack in my bumper having sharp edges (first year it went in like that they actually put tape over it and passed it!) so I'll get the dremel and duct tape out this afternoon to attend to that.. but I don't want to end up having an argument with them over emissions without some evidence from my side over how it should be tested - if they disagree...

Marty

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Joined: Dec 29 2016
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If the readings are the same as last year, I don't see how it can possibly fail.

I usually take mine for a good Italian tune up before MOT for the emissions but yours shouldn't need it if the readings haven't changed.

David.

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The CO reading was a tiny bit higher than last year, but still well within the limits of what it was tested on last year as a "Non catalyst equipped vehicle"

The test this year as a "Catalyst equipped vehicle with closed loop control" has lower limits and it's well over double those...

I've posted last years and this years emissions sheets below...

Last Year (with what I believe to be the correct test):
Last Year Pass

This Year (different test):
This Year Fail

Thoughts? Can I argue the testing procedure if they do a full catalyst test again tomorrow when it's rebooked in?

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Yes you can, see the testers manual here https://www.mot-testing.service.gov.uk/documents/manuals/class3457/, section 8.2, Chart 1. They've done the CAT test when it should have been done to the BET standard. The emissions regs have changed but only for diesel, nothing has changed for petrol/LPG engines. It should be tested on the fuel it is running on when presented for test so as long as you are running on gas when you take it in, that is what they test it on.

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I looked at that, but I am guessing that they have gone on Chart 2 - which is for "Passenger cars on or after 1 August 1992" which is what the P38 (especially mine) does technically fall under. There are also listings in the EGA database for emissions for all models of P38 (well, LP Range Rover) which correspond to how it's tested.

The only thing is that it doesn't split out into LPG on the second chart - which I guess when I question it, they'll throw back at me...

I've decided to order a new Y pipe/Cats (the one on there has been off recently when I had the gearbox done - so shouldn't be too much of a pain to replace) and I've moved the retest to Monday - so hopefully whether they agree to retest it as the non-cat test or not, it should pass.

EDIT Or am I interpreting the flowchart wrong? Should it go from the BET section in chart 1, and then onto chart 2 (as it's starred with the note)?

Typical though from how my year with things is going!

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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What were your numbers?
when I got the MOT on my Jeep a week ago I'd run out of gas (and time) so they tested it running on petrol but they said they'd declare it as LPG as the limits were not as strict. I'm not sure how that works but it passed
The limits on my pass sheet for LPG are 3.50% CO and 1200ppm HC.
(Jeep 4.0 designed in the late 14th Century achieved 1.03% and 195ppm on petrol - with cat).
Range Rover 4.6 on LPG achieved 0.00% and 28ppm - a clear victory!

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My numbers are in the pictures above of the test results...

CO: 0.498%
PPM: 158

Second fast idle test was
CO: 0.604%
PPM: 39

Which is still under the amount for the non-cat test (3.5%/1200ppm)

Last year when they tested it as non cat, it was 0.522% CO and 481PPM

Either way by the time it gets retested on Monday it will have new cats... it's also just had 2 new O2 sensors again as for some reason they'd both failed... which is strange, but hey - it seems to want some attention this year!

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Martyuk wrote:

EDIT Or am I interpreting the flowchart wrong? Should it go from the BET section in chart 1, and then onto chart 2 (as it's starred with the note)?

Yes you are and so are they. You start at the beginning with Chart 1, then continue with Chart 2. Chart 1 ends with doing the BET test and if the vehicle is later than 1992 you then go onto Chart 2. First entry on Chart 2 is BET passed, test complete, you only continue if it failed the BET.

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That's fine.

I'll print that out and take it with me and see what they say on Monday.

Really hate having these bloody arguments... Puts the RR out of use for the weekend.. not that I have anywhere I need to be, but even so...

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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Guessing you know about this forum already Marty: http://mot-testers.proboards.com/

Sounds like they are getting confused, "tested and failed on both fuels" ?? Did they show/print these results out ?
I would argue a little more with them: Seems like lots of folks are being rather over-pedantic about the "new" rules....

It is odd that both your Hegos have failed though. As above an Italian tune-up works wonders, as does making sure
your Cats are good and hot before the Emissions test...

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Gilbertd wrote:

Martyuk wrote:

EDIT Or am I interpreting the flowchart wrong? Should it go from the BET section in chart 1, and then onto chart 2 (as it's starred with the note)?

Yes you are and so are they. You start at the beginning with Chart 1, then continue with Chart 2. Chart 1 ends with doing the BET test and if the vehicle is later than 1992 you then go onto Chart 2. First entry on Chart 2 is BET passed, test complete, you only continue if it failed the BET.

Was talking with Marty the other day - this should explain the lack of LPG testing at all on chart 2 etc. And should put them right to test it as such.

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I know of one tester that thought the lack of a mention of LPG on Chart 2 meant that if the car was later than 1992 and running on LPG it didn't need an emissions test at all. I had it explained, and so did he, by one of the local senior testers (gets asked to oversee newly qualified ones) and as he said, you never start something in the middle, you always start at the beginning.

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I wonder if that was what the guy doing mine thought last year... as I don't think it was tested at all! I wondered down the road while they had it but it isn't exactly quiet, and I never heard it running for any length of time. No printout either.

Mine is due tomorrow, on which someone has just pointed out is Friday the 13th. So it will probably fail spectacularly.

All academic of course, if the bloody windscreen fitter doesn't turn up today to replace the cracking view I currently have across the driver's side...

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Oohh, now I can see the pics :)

Still quite high numbers - I hope the new O2 and Cats sort that out.

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I hope it does too!

I changed the plugs today, and they all looked pretty similar in colour. The bank 1 O2 looked about the same as the plugs, but the bank 2 O2 looked really sooty... So don't quite know how that works... I was expecting to see sooty plugs on bank 2, but nope.

Will update on Monday once it's been retested...

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Joined: Dec 29 2015
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Another data point - I had mine in at a garage that mostly does heavy stuff but also cars, and although mine failed its MOT on other stuff (little bit of welding) I got told "It's on gas, our tester only does petrol or diesel, it doesn't have a function for gas so we just marked it as ineligible for testing."

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Joined: Sep 13 2016
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I had similar with mine the first time round where they tested it on the full cat test and it failed, but it was running like shit. Once I fixed the issues, and had it retested, they put it thru the proper LPG test, but the figures it produced would have passed the cat test anyway. From memory it managed 0.1% CO.

This year they put it on the proper LPG test and it failed that with 3.6%CO. Replacement maf and adaptions reset and it went thru with CO near 0.

So while yes, they have tested incorrectly, a properly working LPG system should have no issues passing the cat test. I guess it depends on your outlook whether you press the issue and get the car tested properly and pass knowing something isn't right, or you fix the fault.

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Indeed. The point of LPG is that it runs cleaner than petrol, hence the reduced tax rate. It's not in our interest for LPG to become regarded as a dirty fuel!

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Well, as mentioned - I'd already decided to defer the retest until Monday, and had bought replacement front pipe/cats to get it sorted, as apparently they tried testing it on the cat test on petrol and it failed there too.

So, given that, I decided to just replace the whole lot anyway to be sure. My CO value was about 0.5% out of the "allowed" 3.5% if they had done the non cat test, so it would have passed by about the same as it has been the last few years - so I don't believe that on LPG it's running THAT badly.

With the new cats/pipes all fitted now (just crawled out from underneath and finishing doing that) it should pass no matter what - but I will be questioning why they tested it differently.

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yeh 0.5% is typical of any modern engine running on petrol or LPG with non-working cats.

Had a few decatted cars over the years that have always done 0.5%.