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The only place for a coil spring is up Zebedee's arse.
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Joined: Sep 13 2016
Posts: 367

Soo, the P38 has been laid up for a bit with a knackered exhaust. Finally got it sorted last week, and took it to work last Wednesday. All good, till i went to go home, and it did a repeat of the "harry potter incident". (Shortly after buying the P38 we drove it to the harry potter thing in Watford (from scotland), and after spending many hours there and leaving the place at 10pm, the bloody thing wouldnt unlock, i didnt have a clue what was going on (nor had the EKA code) and left the wife slightly pissed off!)

I avoid using the remote, because the copy battery door is a very loose fit, and often turns a bit while in my pocket, resulting in the key code being reset. Furthermore, the car has the crappy old battery-flattener reciever, which i was using for a while with the ariel unplugged and eventually just unplugged the whole thing to save any hassle. As a secondary point i would really like a working second key/remote, has anyone got to the bottom of that yet?

However in the two years i've had it, it has occasionally done this unresponsive thing and its usually fixed simply by unlocking and relocking it, and sure enough on wednesday that did infact work, albeit after a few goes. Used it on saturday with no problems. Today however it was booked into the exhaust place again for some rectification work (one tiny silencer is insufficient! :P) and same thing happened again. Except this time, no amount of turning the key was making any difference. I pulled the battery, reconnected, tried key again, nothing, tried EKA, nothing.

After much pissing around i took the door card off, and unplugged the lock, got the meter and belled out the wires. From what i could see everything worked. The only question mark was the "key turned" switch didnt work first time i tried, but then started working immediately after. Maybe a bad connection on the meter leads, not 100% sure. I plugged it all back in, reconnected the battery, and unlocked the door, and normal operation was resumed.

Clearly, i need to fix this properly!

Theres much chat about refurb latches from Marty, but his website suggests those are no longer available. Theres also some recent chat about MGTF parts, but i'm not actually clear on what needs done. Hopefully someone can tell me what the best approach is...

If i buy a RH LHD MGTF latch, i presume it fits the P38 door, but does not have the third microswitch that the P38 requires? Can this microswitch be sourced easily? Anyone have a part number for a suitable microswitch? Or am i better just fitting new switches to the P38 latch? The idea of getting a whole new shiney latch certainly appeals.

I would also like to sort the door handle. The handle itself is loose, and has the usual sticking stuff going on, so i guess i will pull it apart and try and sort all that out at the same time.

Lastly, can anyone think of any other issue that might be at play here?

Cheers Guys

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Joined: Jan 05 2016
Posts: 798

Marty will chime in re. his door latches I'm sure, but in terms of the RF receiver - yes, we have fixed it:

http://p38webshop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=84&product_id=97

Of course, you'd still need to sort the issue of the battery cover being loose. In my keys I use one 2025 and one 2032 cell (instead of two 2025 as it would have been originally) - which equates to being a bit thicker, spacing out the battery cover with no o-ring. So yes, my key is a bit susceptible to water ingress, but the batteries never come loose. And, I can remove the cover when needed, which the o-ring usually makes near impossible without destroying it.

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Joined: Sep 30 2016
Posts: 13

Is that filter doing what I suggested a while back, listening for P38 fob preamble and only gating the output on if it hears it?

Depending on how smart it is, I might have a very cunning solution to the "non-programmable key" issue...

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 2879

From the top, Marty's stuff is currently listed as out of stock or not available as he is working away for another week or so and doesn't want people ordering things and complaining they take ages to arrive. So yes they are available but not until he is back home. The LHD MGTF RH door latch is not only missing two of the three required microswitches but also the actual mechanism that turning the key operates. New switches in your existing latch is a better plan (unless you have,like I did, a spare drivers side latch to do a mix and match on) but you need to get the correct ones and work out a way of mounting them so Marty's refurbs are the best way to go (or brand new from LR....). I've come across a microswitch that didn't work the first couple of times but then started to do it's thing. When I checked it rather than going short circuit when operated it was showing about 2k Ohms, operating it a few times and it dropped to about 20 Ohms which was enough for the outstation to acknowledge it had operated. The filter box does indeed work exceedingly well and with a prototype installed in my car it didn't even notice the central heating thermostat that was blasting away every 15 seconds that without it was causing all sorts of weird effects.

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Joined: Nov 16 2016
Posts: 565

Sloth wrote:

http://p38webshop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/product&path=84&product_id=97

I didn't know about Marty's webshop... I'll start to point P38 owners I see there, have already pointed quite a few to this forum.

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Joined: Sep 13 2016
Posts: 367

Fair enough. His website just suggests hes not doing them any more as hes run out of parts and people arent returning the old bits etc:

http://p38webshop.co.uk/index.php?route=product/category&path=60

Hence looking into the other options.

My lease car goes back in a few months, and the rangey will go from occasional use third car, to frequent use 2nd car for a while at least, so i'm hoping i can get thru some of the more niggly issues and get them sorted out.

Filter box looks like a nice solution, and i presume means we can keep the crappy old first gen units? A method of coding in other keys as well would be an ultimate solution though!

I will try the 2025+2032 battery trick, i'm sure i have some of those around anyway.

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Joined: Jan 05 2016
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The filters have a couple of tricks hiding up their sleeves - and yes, will work with first or second gen receivers just fine.

Keys are next on the list. We have prototype replacement keys working already. Just looking to sort manufacturing next.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 1192

Is there any point in getting one if you already have a Gen3? Not that I've checked yet, just curious :)

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 987

Morat wrote:

Is there any point in getting one if you already have a Gen3? Not that I've checked yet, just curious :)

Nope - If you've got a Gen3 receiver then the filter won't do anything extra for you.

To clarify a bit of the door latch situation - yes they are listed on my website that I don't do them anymore. This is mostly because I have pretty much run out of some of the parts to build them - mostly the Central Locking motors which are known to burn out on earlier vehicles at times. Between that and people not returning their old latches once I'd send a refurb one out has left me low on stock.

I do have about 6 of them that have trickled back in, but most of these are LH latches, with only a couple of RH ones - and at least one of these already has someone after it.

I will still do door latches - but they won't be listed up on the website again until I have a decent stock of them which are refurbed and ready to send. Also part of my lack of enthusiasm towards them is that it is a pretty laborious process to rebuild them, and given that I try to make them affordable vs second hand units and the fact that I'm most likely not going to get units back honestly means I can't be bothered a lot of the time! Especially as I've been away working a lot more this year - to then spend a large chunk of the little time I've had at home pulling manky old latches apart isn't really my idea of fun! As/when I get time and inclination I will obviously continue to process the ones I have - but as such not advertising them anymore.

I've scaled back a lot of what I'm doing now, most around the fact I've been busier with work - but also that I have my own things I want to do when I am at home. I've also had a few cases where people seem to take the piss a bit when it comes to my knowledge/expertise. I had one customer who I'd fixed an ABS ECU for him back at the beginning of the year email me to ask about the warranty on it (which is stated at one month - but I'll obviously try and help out prior customers as much as I can) - because he suspected it was faulty again - but with a DIFFERENT fault to the one I claim to fix, and had actually repaired on his ECU. Because I was about to head away for work, I said I would send him a spare ECU I had that was tested, so he could try it and let me know if it made any difference - as it would be quicker all round than him waiting for me to be back home and then sending his ECU back to me for testing etc. I told him to let me know the outcome, and if the replacement ECU fixed it, to send the faulty one to me so I could check and see what the issue was etc. To this day I haven't even received a message to say the other one arrived (it did as I checked RM website), nor whether it fixed the problem, even a thank you for sorting something out - which technically wasn't even in warranty, but I did to try and help someone out. I chased the customer up a couple of weeks ago with an email (as it had been over a month by this point) and still haven't had any form of response. So that's £100 worth of ECU/postage which I won't see again, because I'm trying to do the right thing by a customer, who if they'd originally paid more for a replacement ECU from a breaker would have been told to go buy another one...

Between things like that and not getting core items returned (yes I keep the core charge, but that doesn't actually cover buying a load more faulty parts to then strip/rebuild) and being busier with work, means that I'm a lot less inclined to bother with a lot of parts these days. I know it's a case of a few people ruining it for everyone - but unfortunately when you're doing it for yourself and it's not a main business, then things have to be prioritised..

Another example before my rant is over... I tested a BECM for a customer as his local Land Rover expert had traced an ABS fault to the BECM. He brought the BECM and ABS ECU to me for testing (I was under the assumption the vehicle wasn't driveable long distance because of said ABS fault, but found out later the whole vehicle could have come to me which in hindsight would have saved a lot of headache). I tested the BECM and ABS ECU on the bench, and found nothing wrong with them - I tried a second BECM with the ABS ECU to check if it reacted the same, and after a few hours, found that they did both work as I would expect for a bench test, and I found nothing wrong. "What do I owe you" I was asked... "Don't worry about it" I said, "You've driven 3 hours to bring it to me and have a drive back now - and in reality I've only spent a couple of hours going over things on the bench, and I haven't even fixed anything as to me it looks fine". A few weeks later I'm then getting emails and calls to say that the BECM has now been refitted and the vehicle doesn't start at all, and can I call the Land Rover expert to help him figure out why. I tried calling, to get it ringing out, not even to an answerphone. I'm then away for work for a few weeks, and get a call whilst I'm in Canada at what's 4am here with the time difference. I woke up and missed the call and had a voicemail which came across as being a bit peeved off that I hadn't contacted HIS Land Rover expert to try and help fix his vehicle. I ended up calling back and then a few phone calls and a couple of days later get in touch with the garage to find that it isn't turning over (GEMS petrol) but the Check Engine light is on, but the engine ECU says it has "incorrect settings" when he tries to get it to relearn a security code, but yet can read that there are no faults, and see live data?!? And that he hasn't done any other form of troubleshooting as he's been waiting to hear from me (though never tried contacting me directly either). After going through a few things to check over the phone, he said he's try them and then if I called back when I was home he would update me... I got an email a couple of days later from the owner saying it hadn't started from the key but by jumping the start relay it started... so the BECM isn't outputting to the starter relay, or there's an issue with the wiring between BECM and starter... so I've spent another hour or so compiling information, connectors, wiring colours etc from RAVE for the expert (who's actually being paid to fix this) to check. I know that it will still ultimately end up being "my" issue to solve when I get home if it isn't already sorted... but all this now because I did something for nothing in testing the BECM, when even before then I was fairly confident it wasn't a BECM issue - though I was assured the fault had to be there as it had been traced to it.

Rant over - but I just thought I would share a bit of some of the things which seem expected of me trying to help out - on top of working a full-time job! - I don't mind it most of the time - but sometimes when things aren't sent back, I'm expected to solve issues or give ideas/information freely where 'experts' are being paid to fix these things - or people taking my generosity of trying to get an issue sorted and work the details/financials out later to the point of not even returning emails now... some days it makes me wonder why I bother!

Definite rant over.... but if you are still requiring a door latch when I get home... I might just have one in pieces ready for reassembly, that I am aiming to get sorted after I've kicked the jet lag. If you have already sorted a replacement and feel like donating the dead one to the 'cause' then I'll happily pay for the postage!

Marty

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
Posts: 255

Hope that was cathartic Marty ! Seriously there are always some around who will try to exploit your kind/helpful nature; When folks try to take advantage like that BECM guy you should/could charge them by the hour for your very considerable expertise and advice... plus impose a much heftier deposit/core charge too as an 'incentive' for folks to actually return items etc....

Had a few like that myself (probably we all have); The worse ones are where you do them a mechanical/electrical favour and then they blame you for something else that happens (and which is totally unrelated) Years ago I gave someone a car ... One Sunday morning they appeared and said it had a problem, so I (electrically) bodged it temporarily (on the very strict basis that they would get it fixed properly the very next day ...). They didn't...of course. but (Long story short/ish) three weeks later I received a letter from a Solicitor referring the the 'death trap' I had "sold" their client etc...!! ( Thus I 're-possessed' it one night... and also visited their Solicitor in person...); Some people are just like that.... but karma is a b*tch...

Back on topic I am fairly sure that when I was messing about with my locks I found a supplier of the motors - as they use them on model (slot) cars, like 'Scalextrix'.. (?) It was a while ago but will have a search around my PC for details... As I recall the brushes used needed some sight mods though....

Later EDIT:
Sorry Marty I (finally) found my source and it was the spindle length that was the problem....but I am guessing you already found/rejected these !

https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/12v-motor-CL-FK130SH-dc-slot_1963094196.html

There was also a company in the US selling versions with longer spindles but at £10 (plus similar in shipping !!)

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Joined: Sep 30 2016
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When the motors failed in my front door locks, I just disconnected them and wired in some cheapy aftermarket door lock actuators that I mounted a bit further down the door. You have to be careful to pick somewhere that the window won't foul them but where you can still get the actuator rod up to the sill lock rod.

The driver's side motor has packed in, so at some point I'll need to get that apart and redo whatever bad connection is causing it.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 987

I have looked at loads of different CDL motor replacemens and even bought some with a longer shaft on them to see if they could be adapted to work.... The main issue is the electrical connections - they are at the bottom of the motor, closest to the shaft. The other version have the electrical connection at the opposite end, so wouldn't clip in where the standard ones do.

Also getting the plastic bit off is somewhat harder than it looks on a lot of the motors!

I did at some point find a place in Brazil that had motors available that looked nearly identical to the P38 one, including the white plastic bit on the shaft already. The problem.. they wouldn't take overseas credit cards or ship internationally....

The search continues!

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
Posts: 255

Ah yes Marty, the position of the brushes/connector too.... now that rings a bell !

Some folks no doubt bought those cheap Rimmer MG locks; Anyone care to pop one open and get the motor designation ?
(Disclaimer; It's a PITA to do it)

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Joined: Jul 12 2016
Posts: 573

Aragorn wrote:

Fair enough. His website just suggests hes not doing them any more as hes run out of parts and people arent returning the old bits etc:

Ah crap...I've contributed to this :(

I've STILL got my old latch in the boot of car. I just never got round to actually sending it back - despite saying I would a couple of times.

I really will send it back ASAP...I will....I promise...

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Joined: Sep 13 2016
Posts: 367

Thanks for the update Marty.

Given the regularity of the faults, i can see theres not a huge deal of sense in buying another used one and just bolting it on.

That leaves me with four options as i see it (excluding £200 for a new genuine one)...

  1. Buy a used P38 one, and strip/rebuild it with new switches. (Cross fingers that the used CL motor keeps working plus lots of effort)
  2. Buy a cheap LHD MGTF one, plus a used P38 one, and swap the bits over as gilbert did (requires finding the switches as per 1, as well as effort of stripping two latches?)
  3. Buy a new expensive RHD MGTF one for £150, which hopefully just bolts in but is cheaper than a P38 one.
  4. Buy one of marty's.

I quite like the idea of the LHD MGTF latch, especially if the motors are hard to get and failure prone, as a refurbished one (by myself or marty etc) is always got that hanging over it. But i dont really know whats involved in swapping the parts. Theres also something to be said for a minimal effort of simply bolting in a new/refurbished part!

Does anyone have details on the actual switches needed so i can have a bit of a price up?

Cheers

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Joined: Mar 22 2016
Posts: 968

Cherry nm-13-0012 is the switch if I remember correctly , or rs online 517-640.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 987

The motors seem to last pretty well... They had a bmhabit of burning out on older vehicles with RF interference as the BECM kept triggering the front doors to lock and it burnt motors out eventually.

Later BECMs were updated in the firmware so as not to do that. And, well RF interference issues are solvable these days so motors seem to last better!

In the RHF latch I use DC1A-A1AA and DC3A-A1AA from memory... Might be DC1C/DC3C even but the difference is in the pins. One of those is a 5A contact rating that I use for the CDL switch as the tailgate motor grounds through it and the original one (and the others I use for door ajar/key switches) are 0.1A contact rating.

These need pinning in place as the mounting holes are different to the factory moulded chunk of switches. I use M2.5 rod to pin the switches in the correct place. Sadly it's not just an easy swap out of switches - there's a fair bit of work involved!

Hope this helps!

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Thanks to Chris for posting the actual RS part number, it's caused Dina more work. She's currently working at RS where her job is to spot errors on their website with descriptions and pricing. Things like 1 item at £2.97 each but if you buy a bulk pack of 100, they cost £4.45 each?? So the DC3C-A1AA switch with a description that says it's rated at 100mA @ 30V but the picture clearly shows it's rated by the manufacturers at 100mA @ 250V is another one for the huge spreadsheet she's creating......

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Joined: Sep 13 2016
Posts: 367

After watching a few vids and seeing the switches arent remotely drop in, i think a refurb unit is the way to go! Good intentions suggests i'll buy all the bits and then it'll sit for months until it locks me out again :P Whereas a refurb latch i can fit quickly with minimal hassle.

Marty i'll ping you a message and will get an RF filter box from you at the same time.

Cheers
Kev