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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Diesels aren't my forte even though I do maintain one for the the owner, a woman who lives just outside Paris. There's a few fairly common things that will cause your symptoms though. I'm a little concerned when you mention the fuel pump under the back seat as the fuel pump is in the fuel tank. To get to it you drop the tank although some bodgers think it easier to butcher the car and cut a hole in the floor. If you are doing it yourself that's one thing but if you are paying someone to do a job and they bodge it I'd be inclined to ask for my money back.

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Joined: Jan 16 2016
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As I understand it, she has had the in tank pump replaced satisfactorily. Even if the pump is duff, it should run ok if the tank is more than half full. The FIP will pull it though. The symptoms are the same as any fuel starvation to an engine. Spluttering and eventual cut out. Also hard to start when the tank was low, which was my first indication of a problem with mine.
I am also one of the bodgers. It is a design fault that an inspection hatch was not included (as it was for other L/R models) ... also a level sensor on the coolant expansion tank. I keep meaning to fabricate a proper surround with a bolted down cover. Mine is just taped up and I agree is a bodge at the moment. Dropping the tank is easy if you have it on a car lift.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Hi Dave
I will be talking to the garage later. It is awkward contacting them as I am at work the times they are open. My manager has a thing about staff using their mobiles. Well on this occasion she can go away. I will be telling them what you and the other guys have said. It is truly amazing what knowledge everyone has. Would be nice to find folk near me so we could form a little club. Will let you know the outcome on your info.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Hi. Dave.
Yes you are right " a lot of of clever buggers". Good job there is I say. I will be talking to garage later and will ask about what you have said and others. Will let you know the outcome.

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dave3d wrote:

I am also one of the bodgers. It is a design fault that an inspection hatch was not included (as it was for other L/R models) ... also a level sensor on the coolant expansion tank. I keep meaning to fabricate a proper surround with a bolted down cover. Mine is just taped up and I agree is a bodge at the moment. Dropping the tank is easy if you have it on a car lift.

As I said, if you do it yourself then it's your car and your choice but if you pay someone to do a job and they do something like that without telling you they've done it, that's just not on. I've dropped a tank a couple of times with the car on axle stands and lowered it down with a plank of wood on a trolley jack but I agree it isn't really that much fun.

Mazz, this place was intended as a sort of virtual pub anyway so it is much like a bunch of mates, some more local than others though. Like most cars (and things) there are common problems that crop up every so often so we will all have experienced it before. In 9 years and almost 180,000 miles I've experienced everything that can fail at some point but mine is petrol so I'll have different faults than you with a diesel.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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The pump under the back seat was repaired/by Turner Diagnostics who, apparently, are P38 experts. I would challenge that. Yes the cut a hole under the back seat!!!!

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Joined: Feb 02 2018
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Hi Mazz1

I finally managed to get on here. Like most others on here my mistress is a P38 and I've learned along the way to fix problems as I find them. Usually with forums to help, there are 3 great ones and this is one of them. The 2 best are Brit ones ;)

First things first - you NEED to get a Nanocom or similar on the car to chase the faults. I'm in Winsford, Cheshire so I'm too far away, but one of our Knights will probably help :smile: If you don't have your own diagnostics you will be wasting your time, chasing faults and garages will see you as a cash point machine.

Dave told me the garage had changed your leaking seals on the FIP. I have done this myself and managed to set it up again. The first time a "mechanic" did it it cost me a replacement engine.

If you have the hole cut under your back seat it is at most a 1 hour job. It's easier with 2 people (my wife [angel]) is my spare hands. On mine I can say that the intank pump (some call it a lift pump) fails around every 18 months. It's cheaper to buy a new one and install (or get someone) it yourself and part of this procedure is to install a non return valve between the fuel filter and the bulk head (the thick black pipe). If you have that installed then you won't ever notice that your in tank pump has failed until you check it. I think mine had failed for well over 6 months and I have a sloping drive and had all the "below 1/4 of a tank not starting problems".

Back to the story. My FIP had been leaking and the mechanic told me he'd one P38's before. He very obviously lied as it was awful after he put it back together and scarpered. No power at all and thick black smoke when I put my foot down. The only way to get anywhere was using the manual side of the auto gear box. I had to really rev the engine to get any acceleration. It would not accelerate in automatic and blew huge clouds of black smoke when I tried!

What I suspect is that he did not have the correct tools to hold the timing chain and slipped the chain.

I also had another problem that was a severe lack of power that wasn't related to the FIP. No power and unable to rev past 50 - 60 mph. It makes it feel like a failed clutch or failing gear box << Solution for me? MAF sensor - Dave3d let me borrow his. So a quick check for this is to unplug the big plug connector on the MAF sensor. This is the pipe between the air filter and the intake manifold and has BMW stamped/embossed on it and an arrow showing air flow. If your MAF has failed your car will drive like it has full power again once the electrical plug is unplugged. If you plug it back in and it's rubbish again that's your answer - they are not cheap though.

FIP fault: The middle section of the pump (second o ring down) is the part of the FIP that can severely change how your car drives and makes power.
There are 5 o rings / gaskets on an FIP (although I have one that only has 3, it has 2 steel gaskets instead of o rings as standard.)

O rings that leak - on mine they did :)

  1. Top gasket doesn't affect anything when you change it. BUT you do have to remove the anti-tamper triangle headed bolt. I used a 9/32 socket whacked on with a hammer and replaced this with a replacement bolt.
  2. Middle gasket this is the one is attached to a part inside (can't remember the name) that changes/messes with fuel quantity delivery. You NEED live diagnostics to correct this one.
  3. Lozenge shaped cover at the lower front - can be changed with FIP on the car, fiddly but can be done. Doesn't affect anything changing this one.
  4. Lozenge shaped cover at the rear - FIP has to come off. This is easy once you've done it once, but you need the correct tools. Not to be attempted without them.
  5. Where all the pipes go into the FIP there is another high pressure o ring. There is a home mechanic way of doing this and it CAN be done with the FIP still on the car. Get it wrong and you need to remove the FIP and a bit falls out inside.

I've changed all my o rings and gaskets. It takes a long time to remove all the bits to actually get to the FIP. Took me around 4 1/2 hours just to get to the FIP.

Timing

The FIP has static timing - from the timing chains. The chains stretch due to wear and tear and eventually this means that the FIP is no longer at the factory setting and usually get's hard to start. The electronics in the top of the FIP (top cover) mixed with the ecu can electronically adapt and allow for that but only up to a point. Then it needs mechanically static timing. You need special tools for this - but I did do this successfully. I can see why a garage would charge a lot of money, mostly labour to remove all the gubbins to be able to start the job.

This is one of my previous posts where I had corrected the middle section of the FIP being out of alignment
(https://rangerovers.pub/topic/1208-diesel-fuel-injection-pump-modulation)

Just a few weeks ago swapped out my top and middle gaskets on the FIP and after asking Wammers on another forum (he is a retired mechanic and a serious FIP boffin - but he is cantankerous hahaha) the advice I got was this:-

Modulation is only adjustable via static timing and no other way. 95% is right at the end of the ability for the electronic brains to account for chain stretch and it will need the static timing adjusting sooner rather than later. My modulation is 67% but I will do static timing in the spring.

Twisting the pump only changes the mg/stroke (which is really mg/litre apparently) which should be between 5 - 6 mg/str for best running @ 750rpm, 128 is the correct fuelling value on Nanocom. To keep my rpm @ 750 I have to put my fuelling at 129 so you can adjust that. The dash rpm counter needle however shows around 775 on the dash, Nano shows 750rpm exactly, so I go with that.

If you haven't yet done it, the twisting and moving is a pain in the arse and will seriously test your patience! Slight tightening of one bolt revs go up, slight loosening of another and they drop, it's a balancing act it just takes time and cups of tea :) If you loosen the bolts too much if you don't spot it you will find a nice diesel smell, thats the pump pissing diesel out - so don't loosen them too much just enough to get movement.

I am in no way a guru I'm just passing on the same info that I was given so I hope this will help others as it did for me.

So correct measurements should be:
750rpm
fuelling @ 128 on nanocom
5-6 mg/str
modulation 50% (+/- 5%)

With new chains static timing is set at 0.95 mm lift at TDC. Over time as the chains run in and loosen up slightly it should drop to 0.9 mm static.

If I have missed anything out or got something wrong please feel free to correct me guys. I'm not a guru but I do believe in knowledge sharing as these forums have been a godsend for me!

I'm in Cornwall all week but can get on here in the evenings.

I hope it helps and I haven't bored you to death and I absolutely hate garages that take advantage of people.

cheers,

Hoppy (and my long suffering P38 widow Kerrie)

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 1086

Hi Mazz,

Glad you found the forum! And again thanks to Dave for lending an ear and some of his expertise - I know you've done a load of bits on your DSE, so figured you'd be a bit more use than me!

If the garage aren't getting anywhere, and they keep mucking about over the next couple of weeks, then I am due to be working down in Bournemouth at the end of the month, and can look at taking a trip over to them in Portsmouth on one of the days I'm down that way. I think I have a couple of days where I am doing shows in the evening, but will have some time during the day. My Nanocom is also unlocked for DSE vehicles, so I can connect up to the engine ECU and look at the readings.

Thanks Hoppy for posting up the info about the timing an modulation - I haven't adjusted a FIP before, or done nearly anything with the Diesel vehicles, but with that info and my Nanocom, I am sure I can work it out...

Keep us informed if the garage have made progress - but if they haven't, then I'm happy to try and get over there to look at it myself, but it won't be until the end of the month unfortunately.

Marty

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Joined: Feb 02 2018
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Marty if you need any help I can talk you through it :thumbsup:

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The hardest part Marty is that you need a helper to hold the Nano and try to show you the figures or read them out to you while you are doing the tiny adjustments on the FIP with your head under the bonnet. And it's hard to hear over noise of the engine and the viscous fan blowing in your face hahahaha.

If the cable was about 2 - 3 feet longer it would be easy! I'll take 5% when you start selling Nano extension cables for FIP adjustments :smile:

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
Posts: 501

They already make them in 1m lengths? They are £21.25

https://www.nanocom-diagnostics.com/shop/product/ncom25
https://www.nanocom-diagnostics.com/shop/product/ncom26

Or quite a bit cheaper @ £3.80
https://www.amazon.co.uk/SODIAL-OBD-II-Extension-Diagnostic-Extender/dp/B00J2N0VG4/ref=asc_df_B00J2N0VG4/

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Joined: Jan 05 2016
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I'll probably come along with Marty - I'm in Southampton but unfortunately my nanocom is only unlocked for the two V8 engines, no diesel.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Good grief guys. I am blinded by science. I have read through all that info. I will read it again to see if I can retain some of it and make a bit more of a head to tail of it. Talked to the garage today and asked if their diagnostic tool was a nanocon. No is the answer to that. Told about the delicate adjustment of the pump as Dave said. He said he had been thinking about that over the weekend. Then he said maybe they would take the pump off!!!! I said I would rather they did not as it would mean more cash to add to the already £760+vat bill. If the local garage had picked up that the fuel pump fault code they were getting, did not relate to the one under the bonnet I would not have sent it to Portsmouth. The reason it went there was because they fixed the leak last November and obviously the work was under warranty.
I am thoroughly pissed off with it all now. I cannot go to my darts matches or anywhere else for that matter. I could sometimes use my daughter's car, but she has a Punto. Due to a smashed leg after a riding accident some years ago, I have difficulty in small cars as my right foot does not point forward. Twisting it to get to pedals causes a great deal of pain. Have no problem in that useless lump of metal I own or in the 16 seat minibuses I drive at work. Looked into hiring something but that is stupid money.
Anyway no communication from garage today. To be honest I feel like giving up on the whole damn mess and scrap it.

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Joined: Apr 10 2018
Posts: 56

So pleased I joined this group when I got my petrol Bordeaux - anyhow I sometimes look at a YouTube page by Brittanica Restorations in Canada.
He had a mother and father of a diesel fuel issue on a Defender, after loads of hassle and false leads the fault / culprit was a leaf in the fuel tank !
Every now and then the pick up pipe sucked it across the orifice - and uurrghhh the Defender struggled big style. He modified the pick up pipe (after removing the leaf) so as it has a T piece. Not saying this is the problen with the RR in question - but weird things happen.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Marty. Thank you for your offer. It would be interesting to see how the guys at the garage relate to you. I would hope that a solution would be found by the end of the month but...........it is not looking good. I am sure you would sort it.
Wish I had someone at home to talk to but my daughter knows nowt about cars and my son has his own life.
My husband, God rest his sole, would not have known any thing either but at least he would have been someone to have a moan at!!!!!
As they have not phoned today I assume they either have not done anything or still have not got any further forward to solving the problem.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Quite right. Weird things do happen.

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Joined: Feb 02 2018
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Mazz1 wrote:

Anyway no communication from garage today. To be honest I feel like giving up on the whole damn mess and scrap it.

If I was to hazard a guess they now know you have knowledge. And they don't. Only specific diagnostics will talk to a P38, Nanocom, Hawkeye and one or 2 others. The diagnostic port is called OBD2 / ODB II - which is a standard. The problem is the P38 doesn't use the standard. Only the plug/connector.

If you can wait for one of our Knight's to help I would recommend that. I wouldn't go back to that garage.

Don't listen to any waffle of "I have a Snap on diag, it's brilliant!". It might read certain codes but it's not any use. I learned when it cost me a replacement engine.

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Still nowt from garage. I do not feel no news is good news!!!!!

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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If they aren't contacting you at least they aren't doing anything and making it worse. If they were, they'd be calling you and asking for more money.....

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Joined: Jun 25 2019
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Hopefully true. I will call them tomorrow and ask how amenable they would be to Marty looking at it if nothing has moved on. It has been 4 weeks now and I am not a happy bunny!!!l