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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi, I would like to ask a very big favour of a member with a left hand drive P38, please ?

As members may be aware the RHD drivers' side door handle is no longer available, due to the fact that they come fitted with the original lock barrel, and LR don't supply them any longer. I have been looking everywhere for a replacement handle, with or without a lock barrel but I have not been able to source a RHD handle.

So, after having replaced all the other handles I have found a means of fitting a new handle for the drivers' side but it takes a little work and help from someone with a LHD vehicle.

I believe the answer is - buy a LHD passenger handle. This provides the mechanical position of the latch arm, and also contains the housing block for the key barrel. Having checked the mechanism of my own passenger side door handle I noticed that on the 2001 P38 the only difference with the drivers' door lock is that the actual latch arm [ the plastic arm with a hole in it] is positioned at the opposite side of the mechanism than the passenger side, and, obviously, there is a lock barrel in the drivers' side.

What this means is that the drivers side mechanism, on the RHD drivers' door handle, is the same as the LHD passenger side door handle but with a lock barrel fitted.

The reason that I would like help is that I can't order a LHD passenger side handle without a chassis number. I have telephoned both Rimmers and LR, in Liverpool, and they won't supply me with a LHD passenger handle without the VIN number. Why ? I have no idea, but I would hazard a guess that they know that you can modify the passenger handle to be a replacement for the drivers' side handle for a RHD vehicle.

So, would it be possible for someone with a LHD vehicle be able to PM me with a VIN for a LHD ? I would be most appreciative as, currently I have 3 new door handles fitted but the drivers' door does stand out a bit. It has taken a bit of working out as clear pictures of the different types of latch mechanisms are hard to find, and, as I have already found out, the Rave manual doesn't actually show the correct latch mechanism for a 2001 vehicle. I had to send two orders back to Rimmers until I finally got the correct handle for the front passenger door, even though I had given them the VIN.

The only thing, after fitting the key barrel into a LHD passenger door handle [using advice on a post by MartyUK] is to use a small hole saw to drill the lock barrel hole through the plastic outer cover of the handle.

I know that I could fit a new spring kit to my old handle [ it is not closing in fully, so needs replacement] and then perhaps spray the plastic covers black, but by fitting a complete new handle and fitting the lock barrel effectively means that I have fitted a whole new handle.

Sorry for the long post but I felt a full explanation is required so that if someone is prepared to PM me a VIN at least they know why I need it.

Pierre3.

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Joined: Aug 05 2019
Posts: 88

These fit up quite well.

Handles

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Part number for a RH handle for a LHD car is ALR8124, but, as you say, Rimmers won't let you buy it without a VIN for some reason. Looks like Brit-Car will https://www.brit-car.co.uk/product.php/101718/4439/door_handle_exterior_right_hand_left_hand_drive_p38_range_rover and so will Land Rover Classic https://parts.jaguarlandroverclassic.com/alr8124-handle-assembly-front-door.html.

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Joined: Feb 25 2020
Posts: 160

Have you solved? I got fairly confused but if you need help let me know and I will send you my VIN.
Might also be the chance to test the PM function lol!

Now it however comes at a price ... we might need to invoke Marty on this one!
Knowing what you claim to know (lol), if I get this right it exists the possibility to turn the P38 into a normal car, not the idiotic modern crap ... this means we might be able to fit TWO locks in each front handle like normal cars used to be?
And that BOTH front latches manage at least the central locking? Retaining of course the control function (left door for LHD, right door for RHD).
Let's see ....

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I don't think you can, Marty will be able to confirm, but I don't think the passenger door has the keyswitch in it, only the CDL and Door Ajar switch. If you swapped the latches as well it might be possible. Why do you need door locks anyway? You just press the button on the remote......

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Joined: Feb 25 2020
Posts: 160

ahahahahahahahaha .... you're good!
My remote(s) have not worked in three years. Now I wait like a kid on Xmas eve the arrival of a certain box from UK ...

In any case I consider silly a car with a single access point ... never saw anything wrong with two locks on opposite handles :-)

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

No, guys, I think you have misunderstood my mission !!

I have replaced the rear door, and front passenger door, handles with new items, but the drivers' side is [a] nearly white, and [b] the handle is not pulling in fully anymore.

So I wanted to buy a new drivers' side handle to sort out the problems, and I don't want to rely on a single new remote. Also, the chances are high that the handle mechanism will break and the handle will come out.

As LR are no longer supplying drivers' side door handles, with the correct lock barrel, then one needs to think outside the box.

Having downloaded lots of pictures of LHD and RHD drive drivers' door handles with a lock barrel fitted it shows that, on a later P38 LR fitted handles with the same latch mechanism in the back of the handle. The difference is, is that the latch mechanism [the plastic hook ring where the spring repair kit fits] is fitted facing upright on all handles. If you took a LHD handle and put it on a RHD door then the latch arm [the plastic ring arm] would be pointing down, whereas on the correct RHD handle it is pointing up.

Then - if you look at a LHD passenger door handle, in its correct location, i.e. on a right hand door [whether or not it is a drivers' side or a passenger side, but on the right hand door only] the latch arm will always point upward, exactly in the same position as the original RHD drivers' door handle latch arm.

Therefore, ignoring the lock barrel for the moment, it means that a LHD passenger front door handle will be the same match as the original RHD drivers' side front door handle.

When you look at the way the front handles are made it will be seen that both sides are made with the very same aluminium body, i.e. the mechanism is made with the enclosure for the lock barrel. Using the method posted by Marty a while back it is possible to drill out a small pin in the lock barrel enclosure and split the enclosure. This will allow two things - [1] it means you can remove the lock barrel from the old, original door handle, and [2] it also means you can fit that barrel back into a new, passenger side door handle - using a little skill of course !

Now, having bought a new LHD passenger front handle, drilled out the little pin in the enclosure, refitted the lock barrel, rejoined the enclosure using a very small self tapping screw, you should then have a complete, effectively new, working RHD front drivers' side door handle.

The only job left will be to drill a hole to suit the lock barrel opening, in the plastic cover. I have a large selection of hole saws from my working days, and I would think the lock barrel opening is about 10mm or thereabouts.

Again, sorry about the long explanation, but for a fairly un-complex job it requires quite a complex description.

I don't want to rely solely on a remote as I find my remote seems to go "off-line" sometimes. It will lock the car but 15 minutes later it won't unlock the door, and I have to use the mechanical key to do the reprogram thing.

Also, if the above modification of the drivers' side front door handle works then it can be done on either a RHD car or a LHD car.

Also, I suspect that, technically, you could maybe replace a passenger side door handle with one with a lock barrel, but I don't know if it would work based on the apparent differences in the two sides door locks. Would it unlock - probably not because I assume that it is the BeCM which sends the signal to unlock the doors, and there probably isn't a trigger from the passenger side door to the BeCM.

The only weak point is wear in the lock barrel itself. My objective is that I want 4 door handles, with good working mechanisms, that are all the same.

I looked at handle covers but [a] they wouldn't suit my vehicle, and [b] it doesn't solve the problem of the worn mechanism in the handle.

Gilbertd - It is the door handles that I need to resolve, the actual door locks are OK. I will have a look at the two website links that you sent.

Leolito - do you think that it would be possible to PM your LHD VIN ? I had an email this evening from Rimmers to tell me a RHD handle for my VIN is no longer available.

Pierre3.

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Joined: Aug 19 2019
Posts: 186

Hi Pierre, I sent a PM for my 1997 4.6 HSE
Harv

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi, - thanks Gilbertd - I seem to have been able to order the LHD handle from Brit-Car, without a VIN.

Leolito - perhaps hold off on the PM, just for the moment. I really appreciate your very kind offer, however.

Pierre3.

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi Harv, my apologies, I have only just seen your post. Thank you very much, you are most kind for the PM. I will keep ii "on File" if you don't mind.

I may have been able to buy from Brit Car - unless they come back looking for a VIN.

My most sincere appreciation to everyone, particularly when asking for a VIN.

I WILL let the forum know how this works out !!!!

Pierre3.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 4730

leolito wrote:

ahahahahahahahaha .... you're good!
My remote(s) have not worked in three years. Now I wait like a kid on Xmas eve the arrival of a certain box from UK ...

In any case I consider silly a car with a single access point ... never saw anything wrong with two locks on opposite handles :-)

I doubt you'll find any car from about 1995 onwards that has the spurious, wasted, additional expense of a lock on both front doors. Why would a manufacturer fit a lock, not a cheap part in their eyes, when it isn't needed? Nissan fit one on the passenger side (on a RHD car) beneath a flap so you don't even know it is there, Renault only ever fit one on the LH side too.

You've managed 3 years without the flimsy, emergency use only, linkage from falling apart? You've been extremely lucky.

I've probably used the key in the door lock on my car maybe half a dozen times in the 10 years I've owned it. In fact the last time I did, when we were trying an experiment regarding needing the EKA after it had been entered with the Nanocom, it was stiff an gritty from lack of use. Lubed it so it wouldn't seize up completely in case I ever did need to use it.

I followed what you were trying to do Pierre, but the idea of a lock on both sides came up. It is the CDL switch in the latch that triggers the central locking but when you use the key to unlock it the BeCM sees a signal from both the keyswitch (detecting the key being turned in the lock) and the CDL to trigger the central locking. As long as the BeCM sees both, all is fine. If there is even anywhere to connect a lock linkage to a passenger side door latch, all it will do is operate the CDL switch. In that case the BeCM sees the CDL switch operating but not the keyswitch so it assumes someone has smashed a window, lifted up the sill locking button to unlock the door so sets off the alarm and disables the engine.

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi Gilbertd, I am not going to fit a lock on the passenger side of my car, I just want to ensure the drivers' side handle matches all the other handles, and fixes the dodgy return spring issue that may, sooner or later, let the drivers' side door handle pull out of the door.

I have a 1983 Mercedes 500se [W126] and that has locks on both front doors. It has been very useful as I often park the car against a wall, and disconnect the battery so that the central locking, operated by the key on both front doors, doesn't work. Having a lock on the passenger side allows me to lean inside the car and push down the lock buttons on the doors, and then lock the passenger front door with the key.

Anyway, it seems that I have been able to order a front passenger side door handle, without having to provide a VIN, so, provided all goes well, I will be able to modify the passenger side handle to work as the drivers' side handle, and a new one, at that.

To be continued........................... !!!!

Pierre3.

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Joined: Feb 25 2020
Posts: 160

Sorry it was me who brought on the confusion on the "double lock", it was mostly a curiosity given the "dual image" of LHD and RHD vehicles and having here owners and users of both, sometimes there are interesting things that can be done.
And as for the W126 (nice ride!) comment above, I also believe in the added practicality of a second lock.

I doubt you'll find any car from about 1995 onwards that has the spurious, wasted, additional expense of a lock on both front doors... [snip] You've managed 3 years without the flimsy, emergency use only, linkage from falling apart? You've been extremely lucky.
Irony aside, I have been lucky indeed, as numerous strange grinding noises when locking/unlocking where always giving me a doomish sensation. But as I knew sooner or later would rebuild as much as possible anew, no big terror ... :-)
I managed to survive :-)
I do have 'twin locks' on my other cars though ('95, '97, '97, '01) and I honestly do use them occasionally. I do not mind turning a key, even in the XXI century. I am too old fashioned ....
Sorry Pierre for the extended OT.
Make some photos when you are doing the job!

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi, thanks for all the really useful information from everybody. My thread really shows the huge advantage of open forums, where so many people contribute.

Gilbertd, thanks for the comprehensive explanation of the BeCM and its operation via the drivers' side key barrel. As you pointed out, the BeCM does need an input from both the key and the door lock which isn't available on the passenger side door handle. Therefore, as I suspected, it isn't really practical to try to install a key barrel on the passenger side door. I don't think that you could get a key barrel, anyway, so it would mean having to use two different keys if you decided to try to do the job.

I will do my best to take pictures when I get the new door handle. If it turns out not to be possible at least I will have the satisfaction of knowing that I will have a brand new front passenger door handle, just in case I ever buy a LHD vehicle !!!!!

Pierre3.

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

A quick update -

the search for the mythical beast, ALR8124, continues. I am getting into the realms of Monty Python and The Holy Grail now.

I have received an email from Brit-Cars to say that ALR8124 is NLA. They tell me that they contacted their EU partners and they can't find one anywhere.

I have emailed Land Rover Denmark, Landparts Greece, Atlantic Parts [Roverparts USA], and Jaguarlandroverclassic.com as they all have the part number listed as available, but I am not holding my breath. Brit-Cars had it listed as "In stock" but they came back to me with an apology and a refund.

I had a similar problem, last year, trying to find brake calipers for my W124. It took nearly 4 months until I found a company in Germany with some old, new stock in their stores. In this particular case Mercedes used 3 different manufacturers to supply brake calipers but didn't list the manufacturer on the build sheet of the car. And the calipers are not transferable between models. If I had not found the company in Germany then I would really have had to buy a newer pair of calipers along with larger brake discs, and therefore new wheel bearings and brake pads.

And finally, fitting larger brake discs would have meant that the original 15 inch wheel rims would not fit !!!! So 16 inch rims would need to be found and fitted. As it happens, I do have original 8x16 AMG rims fitted, but if I didn't it would have been a real ball-breaker sourcing calipers. I contacted a couple of brake remanufacturers in the UK but they said that they could no longer get the internal seals so they couldn't renovate my original calipers. All fun and games, but very frustrating.

Pierre3.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 1190

Without trying to de-rail this too much...

Re fitting a second door lock to the passenger side... Yes, you could do it.. in theory... you could fit it so you had a driver side latch from a LHD in the LHF door, and a RHD one in the RHF door. you would need to add in the key switch wire from the opposite side though and run it to the drivers door of your vehicle and wire it into the key switch of the 'native' drivers side for it to work properly... maybe... but probably not.

Reason I say 'maybe' is that as GilbertD says - if it's locked/alarmed, then you will set the alarm off with the unlocking/opening of the other door without it recognising a key input. You could run the key switch wire to the outstation in your passenger door, and it will be transmitted to the BECM and recognised as key switch... BUT as I've found when bench testing BECMs with a RHF door latch on it, as most of mine I work on are RHD - the BECM - whilst recognising key switches in both doors will only listen to the one that it thinks is the drivers door - based on the LHD/RHD setting written in the BECM.

So on LHD, it will only listen to the LHF door key switch, not the RHF and Vice versa for RHD (my tester is now wired up to support both LHD and RHD driver door latches for testing both BECM settings).

So... you could run the key wire to the opposite door, so it detects the key turning in the lock, but I think that will still throw a hissy fit, because it will see your driver door key switch moving as it should, but the passenger door CDL switch locking/unlocking. I will try and have a test of this on the bench to see what it does, but I am assuming that it will still set the alarm off.

Nice thought though!!

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Joined: Aug 06 2019
Posts: 80

Hi Marty, I don't know very much about the programming of BeCM's but I do understand the logic behind your description.

I used to do some basic programming for cctv, access control, and automatic doors into buildings and pharma labs. But, and it is a big "but", I didn't write code or write modifications to programs, I used to ask our IT guys to write instructions for whatever function I needed. So I wouldn't be comfortable trying to edit BeCM programs.

The hardware is a slightly different ballgame, as I understand hardware and mechanics much more easily. Again, probably because I used to install all the hardware for stuff like revolving doors, pneumatic doors, and automatic electric doors.

Anyway, to the issue in hand - I rang Rimmers this afternoon and they have assured me that I will get a new drivers' side door handle, complete with a new barrel. The guy said that the order is a back order, but that it will be fulfilled, it will just take a while. But if I don't mind waiting then, apparently, I will get a new handle !

So, I will wait............................................................

Pierre3.

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Joined: Feb 25 2020
Posts: 160

I will try and have a test of this on the bench to see what it does, but I am assuming that it will still set the alarm off.

Marty, would you try this as well: if you lock the car - or the BeCM on the test bench and the alarm , then "open/unlock" but without the key but from the inside door latch, does the alarm goes off and the car is disarmed? Does it also if using the passenger latch? Obviously without superlocking .....
I would try myself, but my box just arrived and need to go pick it up from the courier ... :-)

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leolito wrote:

If you lock the car - or the BeCM on the test bench and the alarm , then "open/unlock" but without the key but from the inside door latch, does the alarm goes off and the car is disarmed?

No, the alarm is triggered and the immobiliser stays on. If the car is locked with the key, it needs to see a signal from both the keyswitch and CDL switch to tell the BeCM that the car has been unlocked with the key. If you leave a window open and unlock it with the sill button, it sees the CDL switch operating but not the keyswitch so thinks you are trying to steal it.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
Posts: 1190

As Gilbertd says...

It will set the alarm off. If you've locked with the fob, or the key in the door, then it will just see the door as being unlocked and opened - but nothing to disarm it beforehand.

If you lock with the fob, then you need to unlock with the fob - or if you have locked with the fob, but it won't unlock it, then key will only open the drivers door, and the EKA will need to be entered (unless it's switched off) to disarm and start the vehicle. If you lock with the key in the door, you can unlock with either the key in the door, or the fob and it will then disarm and start the vehicle.

If the vehicle is locked/alarmed, then opening of any of the 4 doors, tailgate or bonnet will set the alarm off. I will have a play once I've finished getting the latest BECM repaired and tested, and see if it matters what key switch is triggered when a CDL switch is toggled - but I would imagine that if the CDL switch didn't match the door the key switch is in, then it will throw a fit. I will also check and see what the behavior is with the alarm turned off. My initial feeling is that it will be that it will stay immobilised, and even if it doesn't set the vehicle alarm off if disabled, that the BECM will still be in an alarmed/immobilised state.

It is not possible to change the BECM coding, as the chips are One Time Programmable - so even though we do have dumped code from a couple of the microcontrollers - it's many thousands of lines to decipher, and even if you could edit it, you wouldn't be able to write it back to the chip - you would have to find a new - non programmed chip to try it on.