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Can anyone recommend a good (ie. tried and tested) service who can do this ?

Backstory; Ordered a couple of keys from an 'auto locksmith' on e-bay with plastic fobs (@ £25/pair) but they did not work....
Visual inspection showed considerable differences between what they sent and the original (high res) photo they used to make them.

When I complained and requested (corrected) replacements this was their reply: Trash them then and send us a photo !!

THEIR ACTUAL REPLY: **That part at the end is not a cut. Our computerised key machine cuts the most economical route.

If the key do not work then please break or bend the key blades and put a hammer to the cases. Send a picture once done and a refund will be given **

Customer Disservice is alive and well it seems !

PS: Easy enough to get HU58 blanks but any recommendations on where to get them cut ?

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I got a pair cut at my local Timsons. Told them they used a BMW blank, which they didn't keep in stock but ordered in for me and cut them from my original on their machine. One worked but was a bit 'notchy' while the other one worked perfectly.. Cost me all of a tenner.

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Thanks Richard, Had a chat on the phone with my local Timpsons - who tried to tell me the ('proper') blanks are very hard metal and so 'will need a laser cutter' !! Told him when my blanks arrive I will pop in and he can judge for himself.......

Incidentally I initiated a 'return' on my naff e-bay keys - and they said they 'will send someone round for them' - Odd !
One to avoid then: 'auto-locksmith'....

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Thanks for the heads up Dave. I was considering using auto-locksmith. I had my local locksmith try to make one (from a BMW blank), but he wasn’t successful. The other reputable lock shop in my town simply said they can’t do them. I still only have one key for mine.

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Quick Update: My local Timpsons have ordered some HU58 blanks from their supplier to cut...

They will not cut my own p-shaped blanks (ie. as used in the fob) due to 'liability issues with their machines'
-they will/can only cut what they supply themselves.

To Be Continued !

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Another Update...

The actual blank needed is a HU109
Timsons, after a very long wait, could not actually supply these !
Note that the HU58 may not be suitable...
(the 'waist' is in the wrong place)

Note also that e-bay Chinese blanks are unsuitable as the metal is too hard so most key cutters will reject them

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So, a recommended e-bay supplier is crnw-p38 ; £25 for a valet key - and uses a genuine SILCA HU109 blank

Again this is a valet key so will only get you into the car (and start older ones without the immobiliser coil on the ign. switch etc)

e-bay: "Range Rover P38 Plain Key Cut By Picture Valet Key Spare key BMW - Item number:153780255168"
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https://www.trade-keys.co.uk/images/product-details/Silca_HU109FP.pdf

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davew wrote:
(and start older ones without the immobiliser coil on the ign. switch etc)

It isn't an immobiliser coil, it is a trigger to cause the fob to transmit an unlock code. If Passive Immobilisation is enabled and you unlock the car but don't start it within a predetermined time, the immobiliser kicks in again. On an early car when you go to start you get the message "Engine Disabled, Press Remote or Enter Code". In this case, you need to either press the Unlock button on the fob or enter the EKA. On a car with the coil, when you put the key in the ignition, the coil causes the fob to transmit the unlock code without you having to do it manually. On my car the coil hasn't worked since I've owned it so I got into the habit of pressing Unlock before trying to start it whether it needed it or not. As soon as I got the Nanocom I disabled Passive Immobilisation so the immobiliser doesn't kick in no matter how long you leave it between unlocking the car and starting the engine. Simple way to tell if it is enabled is to look at the key when you put it in to the ignition. If the LED on it flashes, Passive Immobilisation is enabled, if it doesn't it isn't (or the coil has died).

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Thanks for the additional data Richard, with my comment about the (passive) immobiliser coil I was just drawing attention (for those without a nano etc) that a basic VALET key (no fob etc) will not -necessarily !- on its own start our cars !

That said does anyone know of a supplier that can cut/copy the fob-type keys (and at a reasonable price) ?

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davew wrote:

Thanks for the additional data Richard, with my comment about the (passive) immobiliser coil I was just drawing attention (for those without a nano etc) that a basic VALET key (no fob etc) will not -necessarily !- on its own start our cars !

Yes it will. If Passive immobilisation is on, it will start it as long as you do it within the time limit after unlocking the car. If the car had been locked with the fob and is unlocked with a valet key, it will need the EKA entering first but if it was locked with a valet key it can be unlocked and started with it without having to enter the EKA. When most people talk about an immobiliser coil they are referring to one that picks up a signal from a transponder in the key so you must have the correct key in the ignition. If anything, a correct term for it would be a mobilisation coil as it only sends a signal to the fob and the fob transmits to the receiver just the same as when you press the button.

That said does anyone know of a supplier that can cut/copy the fob-type keys (and at a reasonable price) ?

Yes, CRNW can. They can't do a flip style fob but can do a rigid Discovery style remote fob either from the Lockset Barcode or by copying what you have (at around half the price of a genuine flip key from Land Rover). They can also program and cut a key for NAS spec cars using the 315MHz fob which are NLA from Land Rover.

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You are being 'a bit pedantic' there Richard.... I was again simply stating there are limitations with a VALET key, hence my "necessarily !" And I know what you mean but LR call it an immobiliser coil of course !

Similarly, yes, as for the 'flip-key fob' I meant as per the original (Huf) arrangement not a rigid one obviously....

When I asked about this earlier(July) no-one actually suggested CRNW either !

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If you want a flip key, your local LR dealer is the only option. If you don't mind a rigid key, CNRW is the only option. If you just want a non-remote key, you SHOULD be able to persuade Timsons to order in a blank and cut one for you, mine did but, as you seem to have found, not all are as helpful as others.

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For anyone trying to 'persuade Timson' they need to order the Silca HU109 blank which they (and others) have told me is on a '6-month' back order ! ( CRNW do have these thougn, as mentioned)

Another question for you Richard - about the passive im/mobilser coil issue; It was my understanding that in the fob there is a RFID device (which is 'energised' by said coil) to mobilise/start the engine: Above you indicate this is not necessary - as long as you put the key in the ignition and turn it quickly enough (after opening the door with it); If so, what is the time interval for this ?

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No, all there is in the fob is a surface mount inductor that sees a pulse from the coil and that triggers it to send an unlock code. Unlike many cars there is no RFID device in there. As an aside, I got a panicked call from my son-in-law one day to say his car wouldn't start when he came out of work. The key blade in his fob was loose so he had pulled it out so he didn't lose it and was trying to start the car holding it in a pair of pliers. I asked him for the rest of the key, held it next to the ignition lock and it fired straight up. So a Toyota has an RFID transponder in the key but a P38 doesn't which is why it can be started with a cut key blank. The delay between unlocking the car and starting the engine is 30 or 60 seconds, I don't remember exactly which. Easy way to test, assuming you have passive immobilisation enabled, will be to unlock with the remote fob, open the door and wait before trying to start the car with the valet key. If it will start after 40 seconds, the delay isn't 30.....

I've only ever had one remote fob with my car so I got 2 cut by my local Timsons. One is kept in the house while the other is concealed under the car. That way if I lose the key while hundreds of miles away from home, I can get the one from under the car and use that to enter the EKA and start the car.

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Thanks Richard, that makes more sense (having once seen an opened key briefly - and it did not look like there was any suitable RFID 'smarts' within but I did indeed see what looked like an SMD inductor !) Also means it is not exactly 'passive' either !! Presumably a code (via said inductor plus coil) is sent to the BECM & etc.

(Guessing there may well be a few folks reading/trying this 30/60 second time interval out for themselves too now !?)

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davew wrote:

Presumably a code (via said inductor plus coil) is sent to the BECM & etc.

NOOOO. The coil sends a pulse (a simple on-off pulse) when the microswitch in the ignition switch detects you have put the key in the ignition (the same one that gives the Ignition Key In warning when you open the car door with the engine off but the key still in the ignition). That pulse causes the remote to transmit the unlock code by electrically pressing the Unlock button. That causes it to transmit the code which is received by the receiver and passed to the BeCM, no different to you pressing the button. The coil does nothing more than cause it to do it.

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Try it, wind yourself a coil of thin wire and put it around your keyfob. Give it a short pulse of 12V, preferably via a resistor to limit the current so you don't burn it out, and the LED on the fob will flash.

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OKKKK, then it is dumber than I thought !

Presumably (rather than simulate it with a coil as you suggested) this is of course just what happens with a (working) fob and a (working) coil within the ign. switch ? ie. insert key -> fob led flashes (and fob transmits code as though the button was pressed).... but now I am not sure how a Valet key would work as long as it was turned within 30/60 seconds ?!

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As I said, if passive immobilisation is enabled and you don't start the car within the time limit, the immobiliser is enabled again. In that case, the valet key won't start the car unless you use it to enter the EKA first.

If you locked with the fob, then use the valet key to unlock (it will only unlock the drivers door, the central locking won't work on the other doors) and try to start immediately, it still won't start the car until you enter the EKA. Once the EKA is successfully accepted, the other doors will unlock and the car will start.

However, if you lock with the valet key and unlock with the valet key and start within the time limit, it will start as locking with a valet key sets the immobiliser but unlocking with the same key turns it off again.

If passive immobilisation is turned off, once unlocked and the immobiliser is turned off (either by using the fob or entering the EKA), it stays off and doesn't re-enable after the set time so it doesn't matter how long you wait before starting the car. It doesn't need to be started within the time limit and the coil does not send a pulse so the LED on the fob doesn't flash (an easy way to see if it is enabled or not).

So, if you lock with the fob and unlock with the key, it will need the EKA.
Once that has been entered and accepted, you can subsequently lock with the key and unlock with the key and it will not need the EKA again, it only needs it the first time it is unlocked but not afterwards. I've just been outside to check on mine to confirm (which has passive immobilisation turned off) and I can lock with the fob, unlock with the key and once the EKA has been entered once, I can then lock and unlock with the key without it asking for the EKA.

If you have a faulty door latch microswitch (either the CDL or keyswitch) so can't enter the EKA with the key, on a car with a BeCM of V36 or later (mid-97 onwards) you can use a Nanocom to key in the EKA instead. If you have an early car with a BeCM earlier than V36, then when the car is immobilised a Nanocom cannot connect to the BeCM so you can't enter the EKA with it. You can only enter the EKA by turning the key in the door. That is what causes more problems than anything when someone with an early car also has a dead or dying microswitch in the door latch so it doesn't recognise the key being turned so you can't enter the EKA in the normal way.

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Thanks Richard, much appreciated, and that's a comprehensive guide indeed !

Looks like the main problems may be encountered if you lock with the fob and unlock with the valet key (or vice versa) - which confuses the security system no end no doubt !

PS: Overall I am starting to think I will disable the im/mobiliser, and EKA, use valet-key only and fit my own anti-theft devices next too ! Funny really as all my neighbours with (newer) RRs are resorting to Steering Wheei Boots/Bars due to Relay Attacks.....

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You can't disable the immobiliser (except by having your engine ECU modified), only passive immobilisation. A non-removable immobiliser has been mandatory on all cars sold since the mid-1990's. If you disable the EKA how are you going to start it when the fob goes flat or you are in an area where the fob won't work? Ordinarily you would simply enter the EKA, start the car and drive home but if you have turned off the EKA then what do you do?

Locking with the fob and unlocking with the key doesn't confuse anything, it does exactly what it was designed to do, stop the car from being stolen. It doesn't know if you are using the key, have jammed a screwdriver in the lock barrel and forced it or given the valet key to someone so they can open the car (and give it a valet) but not go joyriding in it. That is when the EKA is needed to turn the immobiliser off.

There are a lot of people that think it is a stupid design and have tried ways to get around it but it is actually a well designed and well thought out system to stop the car being stolen. It has two weak links, the poor performance of the receiver (but that isn't insurmountable) and the fact that the plastic internals of the latch that operate the keyswitch wear when it is overused. The poor performance of the receiver is down to the supplier doing it on the cheap and the weakness in the keyswitch mechanism is because it was never intended to be used all the time, only in emergencies.

The relay attacks are the reason why insurance companies have got very twitchy about insuring later models and are down to keyless entry and start, probably the most stupid idea that answers a question nobody ever asked. Did anyone ever say, "wouldn't it be nice if I didn't have to press this button on the fob to unlock my car and then put a key in a slot to start it?" I doubt it but once one manufacturer does it, they all do. I found myself carrying two keys for a car a couple of weeks ago. It was one where if you have the key in your pocket, the doors unlock as soon as you put your hand on the door handle. Only problem was, the spare key was in the centre console so even if you didn't have the key in your pocket, it could detect the spare as being close enough and would unlock the doors, making locking it a complete waste of time until I took the spare out and put that one in my pocket too.