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(Initial PM to Lpgc, who suggested I repost here)
2006 L322 4.2 SC
This is a bit of a hail mary at this point. I have been troubleshooting (because I have no formal training, just the manual and SDD v165)the 2 lean codes 171/174 (only those) for about 2 months now. I have tried many things. Yesterday I stumbled on your replies to a gentleman with a nearly identical issue about 2 years ago. Would you be willing to give me some clues? If yes, what info do you need? Still newish to SDD and have trouble getting files out of it for others to view.

Thanks,

Josh

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First off, Sorry for invading your forum with a different vehicle, but I stumbled on a thread and member that I am really hoping can shed some knowledge on my issue, which I know is not new.

2006 L322 4.2 SC petrol (for you UK types)
I have SDD v 165 and iCarsoft LR V3.0 for scanning. HOWEVER, these two scanners seem to output file formats that are very difficult (at least for me) to export in a helpful format outside of the tool. If anyone is familiar with either, I'd love to know how to do so, as I have many data log files I've created while testing.

Testing I have done
-verified 5v reference and ground to MAF, both MAP's and fuel pressure sensor
-Verified a good looking switching signal for the upstream O2 sensors at +-.03 uA (did I get the decimal in the right spot?) and downstream sit right around .7v-.8v
-Fuel pressure hits low 60's after start up and drops to about 41-42.5 at idle in gear thereafter. This seems to be about 12% under the spec per the manual. Lots of speculation on whether this is low enough to cause my issue. Under a good load up a 16% grade at 3k rpm doesn't get it above 63 and I only see about 2-3 psi of boost, though the ECM is probably pulling boost via the PRV-which does not leak
-Barometric pressure sits right about 1 bar at all times
-MAP readings start at 4-6 PSI and never more than 18.
-KOEO the MAP sensor in the TB elbow reads 4.9v and the MAP sensor in the RH rear intake manifold reads 2.4v. Both sensors drop smoothly to about .6v as vacuum is applied by my MightyVac tool
-LTFT's --B1 seems to always be a few percent higher (positive) than B2. After startup they will be roughly B2-15% and B1-19%, but after a little driving both will come up to about 21-22% when under light throttle and coasting. Under load, roughly 1500 RPM and above will bring both down to 12-15%, load depending, maybe a tough lower, but never under 10% and never negative
-STFT's seem to always fluctuate back and forth from +-7% and usually settle around 0% often during light throttle and coasting. Load gets the most switching. This is with a new NAPA Echlin MAF sensor. I also have a Denso sensor that cost me $160 which I thought was the OEM replacement but that one gives more erratic readings, so maybe a dud? I currently have the NAPA sensor in. Suggestions for a know good brand?
-I have smoke tested, propane and carb cleaner blasted every connection and vacuum line in the engine bay to no avail. With SDD open looking at all fuel trims I saw no change. I have looked around the connections in the entire induction system from the MAF to the TB and all looks fine and tests fine-no leaks that I can find.
-The codes always come together, and reset after I do some checking of things and clear them after roughly 2-4 drive cycles when slowing for a roundabout and accelerating to go through, this is around 15-20 MPH.
-I have replaced the fuel pressure sensor with a good one that gives the same reading as the old one
-I have two new MAF's, and the NAPA version is currently installed
-I replaced the MAP sensor in the RH rear intake manifold because I thought the 2.4v resting voltage was suspect, but the new one reads the same as the old one and must be a 2 bar type?
-I wasn't sure about the upstream O2 readings so those are new OEM ones-Bosch, I think?
-Fuel filter is new
-Tank has been cleaned and system flows well I think
-SDD v165 has no provision for seeing commanded FP so not sure about that one
-I have inadvertently fired quite a few parts at this project, not blindly, but lack of proper understanding
-It starts immediately and runs great, does not hesitate or stumble really at all, only right after I have fiddled with something, after driving for a minute or two it smooths right out. Acceleration is decent, if not a bit sluggish from a start
-It seems very cold blooded-though I have watched the ECT readings deliberately and it comes up very regularly, just slowly. It seems to take about 6 miles of driving and maybe 10 minutes to hit operating temp and does not overheat-195 is where it lands.
-Testing is always done between a half and quarter tank
-I ran the SDD fuel/purge system leak test which passes
-All grounds in the engine bay and wheel wells have been removed and cleaned. I have also checked and cleaned all grounds in the front sill and kick panel areas, both sides. Wiring looks good everywhere.

I wish there were a vacuum leak to find. Any ideas? Every connection I took apart the o ring looked fine and was not plasticized. Oil filler neck does not seem to leak.

I have not checked wiring from the ECM connector to the sensors signal wires, but all looks acceptable and undisturbed externally. I know this is not a guarantee, but experience tells me it is likely not an issue. Looms and protection all seem to be intact.

I love this thing and can't quit on it.

Thanks for any help to an outsider (kinda)

Josh

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Ha... I hope you are not looking for me. Since i was on the receiving end of all that knowledge. But anyway, My issue was erratic, it would come and go. Sometimes without clearing faults. It turned out to be the MAF sensor. This is what tells the ecu how much air the engine is pulling in, The ecu then calculates the fuel to put in, and the O2 sensors check and force adjustments. If i understood all of that stuff correctly. One pair of fuel trims are sort of a baseline collected over time to allow for engine variables like injector flow rates etc. The other trims are used for "live" fuel calculations. (throttle, air press, engine temp) Im not sure which on is which. Together they are used by the ecu to determine how much fuel to add. But when they go out of the working window the ecu will set a rich or lean code. Obviously rich means too much fuel not enough air and lean is the opposite.
The tool i use is the IID tool I purchased online. The tool gives me the option save files as a PDF. I then just upload that to google drive and used the link in posts.
I ordered my MAF from Land Rover and they gave me the Denso sensor. So for starters i would put your Denso model in. The readings should follow the engine RPM.
The sensor voltages and numbers dont mean anything to me since i only have a basic understanding. I find the graphs much more helpful. But i can give you my 2 bits.

As for fuel pressure it is all over the place. If memory serves pressures were high 30's to low 70's. Graphs should still be in the thread, if not let me know. Depending on load, engine rpm and throttle. I was never able to find an actual pattern in it. What i did find however is, there is a switch in the fuel filter that stops the fuel gauge from reading. These are the two wires on the bottom of the filter. I assume that means the filter is plugged. But when this happens everyone seems to change the filter and the fuel pump as well. Which may or not be necessary.

Pcv valve? if i remember correctly It should only close if you blow into the engine side the rest of the time i is open. sucking or blowing on the intake side wont do it it should stay open. i think Its job is to remove fumes from the engine but to stop overpressure (major blow by) from going into the intake after the throttle body.

Any exhaust leaks before the O2 Sensors? I have small pinholes but they dont affect it. A large enough one will throw out the O2 sensors. I had to use my phone camera to get into there and take pics to actually find the pinholes.

Another question is are you in North America. If so do you have an EVAP fault. This will also cause the engine to go lean. Gas cap, evap line, purge valve etc. NA vehicles require an evap pressure test system. If not you will have to smoke test the evap system separately or try disconnecting and plugging the evap line. You may be able to do this at the purge valve.

Vacuum booster. I dont suggest plugging this one and driving on public roads. These things are extremely hard to stop with no power. Thats why there is a electric vacuum pump if the engine shuts down. But maybe smoke test it separately.

Longwinded and a little unnecessary but I Hope this helps.

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Took me so long to write my reply, I've been beaten to it, but here it is anyway....

I'll start by saying I am not familiar with your car but a fuel injection system works the same way no matter what engine we are talking about. The amount of fuel injected is dictated by the length of time the injectors are open for. This is controlled by a programmed fuelling map stored in the ECU and the amount of fuel will be dictated by the amount of air the engine is drawing in from the MAF, the throttle position sensor and various other sensors so the fuelling is correct for all eventualities. As a final check, the O2 sensors look at the exhaust and decided if the fuel/air ratio is correct and adjust slightly one way or the other to keep it correct.

So that is the theory, the output from the O2 sensors will vary between 0V and 1V signifying a lean or rich mixture. If the sensor is reporting 0V, the short term fuel trim will move positive to increase the injector pulse duration to allow slightly more fuel in. That then causes it to rise towards the 1V output so the short term trim then goes negative to decrease the pulse length so less fuel goes in. That is why the sensor reading will always be moving except at times when the system goes into what is termed open loop, usually on the overrun on a closed throttle, where is doesn't respond to the O2 sensor outputs.

You have low fuel pressure but the ECU assumes it is correct so opens the fuel injectors for a pre-determined duration that should equate to the correct amount of fuel going in. If the mixture is lean due to insufficient fuel being injected, the short term fuel trims will be permanently positive (because the O2 sensor will be showing 0V or thereabouts) to inject more fuel. The ECU sees this over a period and adjusts the long term fuel trims so that the short term trims return to moving either side of zero.

So what is likely to have happened on your car is that the fuel pressure is low, so insufficient fuel was being injected, causing the short term trims to go permanently positive. After a time of running, the long term trims adjust to get the short term trims back to normal. It is quite normal on an older car to see long term trims of up to 5% one way or the other as components age and the fuelling needs to be adjusted to keep things sweet. If the long term trims reach a certain level, that will cause the code to be thrown. The codes you have, P0171 and P0174, show too lean, bank 1 and 2 because the long term trims have reached a point where the codes appear. That will vary with different cars and ECUs fitted, and can be anything between +-10% or +-25%.

I had exactly the same P0171 code being thrown, with the long term fuel trim being at +25% (with the associated Check Engine light), on the 1 litre, 3 cylinder engine in a 2008 Toyota Aygo that my step daughter bought last year. Once the code was cleared, it reset the long and short trims to zero at which point the short term trim was showing permanently lean (and it ran badly) until the long term trim had adjusted. That was found to have low fuel pressure caused by the pickup mesh on the in-tank fuel pump being clogged solid with dirt.

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Gentlemen, thank you for your response!

P73990-I also smoke tested the exhaust from the tips forward and saw nothing. New O2 sensors swapped fine no thread issues-stayed tight.

-I will put in the Denso MAF. There are MANY choices for "applicable" O2 sensors. Do you have a PN for a known good sensor, or is there enough variation at the manufacturer level it doesn't matter that much?

-I am in Mount Vernon, WA, USA

-Never had an EVAP system fault

-The ONLY codes I ever get are for the lean condition and always together. 171/174

I have checked the three one way valves in the vacuum/EVAP system and all stay shut and look to be facing the correct direction. All my plumbing is plastic except a few inches of rubber line from the fuel pressure sensor to the intake source nipple and the boost PRV to its intake source nipple. Both are fine. I have replaced the push-in fitting receptacle in the intake for the plastic line from the EVAP system. It does not leak.

-I understand that the short term values are for "live" corrections and long term values are for how the system has to adjust the short term to make the mix right. What I DON'T understand is HOW is does it, how long it takes for changes to take effect and exactly what I do that forces the system to make a correction. I have ideas, but they may not be (probably not) correct.

Gilbertd,

-I think I understand the relationship with the fuel pressure and PWM of the fuel injectors to compensate for low fuel pressure. Though I will not claim a great understanding of the system, I have read the manual a number of times to try my best. I know there are MANY sensors and a mountain of data the ECM looks at to make the needed calculations. That being said, the inter-relationship of the numerous systems vexes me. I just don't have that much experience yet, so I appreciate your input very much.

-The upstream O2 sensors in my system output a uA signal and the downstream 0-1V. Lean condition aside, they look to be responding appropriately.

-Fuel pressure seems low across the range, but it does go up with demand though I'm not certain it sufficient at any point since I can't see commanded pressure. This will cause the ECM to lengthen the FI PW to compensate. FI PW ranges from roughly 2.9 ms at idle to 9 ms up a steep hill at 3k RPM 2-3 PSI boost. STFT's up the same hill will switch +- 5-7% and LTFT's will drop to roughly 11-14% WITH B1 always being a smidge fatter. If I understand correctly, B1 is the far side, or end of the line so if fuel pressure is low, B1 will be affected the most.

-This is with the Echlin MAF. STFT's have never been constantly in the positive though LTFT's have. I will put in the Denso sensor and report back after Christmas.

-I am not sure exactly what will reset the fuel trims to zero. I have tried doing a full system module reset through SDD (which I think resets ALL adaptions?) and I tried LPGc's method of clearing all codes, unplugging one side of fuel injectors, running until the CEL comes on, resetting codes and immediately going for a drive so as to not let the system idle and foul of the readings. The STFT's always fluctuate within 6-7% +- and LTFT's always go right up to high teens and after a bit of driving peg in the low 20's during light acceleration and coasting, at which point STFT's go to 0.

-I will put in the Denso MAF and the new fuel pump once I have it and report back.

Thanks for adding your experience to my challenge!

Josh

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I will get a part # for you as soon as my wife comes back with it. I think you can get them at rock auto for a decent price
If your MAF sensors are old it might be a good idea to replace it anyway since the deteriorate over time. According to a lot of posts i have seen cleaning them is a short term solution. If memory serves the denso has the manufacture date printed on it with the part #.
Also did you smoke test your intake plenum and air filter housing? When i did mine i put a plastic sheet over the air filter and the put the cover back on. Smoke was added into the engine port at maf sensor. This could be a problem area.
It may be fuel pump related as well. Unfortunately because the pump is pwm controlled and pressure fluctuates, without knowing what the pressure and flow should be in relation to the pwm signal, there is no way to test this without throwing parts at it. (Which i hate but sometimes there are no other options.
The maf sensor seems to be a common problem associated with this code across all brands. So before replacing the fuel pump i would probably go to it first. AFTER you have eliminated any possible vacuum issues. Simply forgetting to plug the rocker cover into the intake plenum will also set set off the code.
Just a note on the brake booster. if it is bad i think it vents into the passenger compartment. So that may be something to double check.
On more thing, air filter; do not use the oil type air filters. They will contaminate and ruin the MAF sensor. I removed mine when i bought the truck but by then the MAF was already intermittently underreporting.

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I have 2 different Denso MAFs. The second one with all the numbers is the one purchased from Land Rover. The 602 came with my latest Rover purchase. No faults, but i have not driven if for more than 10 miles twice so i cant vouch for it
pics
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1-h9afo65nHN4TrMnQuhdKPfUD9UeJirE/view?usp=sharing
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1QiBm2ANPU_VkmL5mDR2RIXoV7j81edSh/view?usp=sharing

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Josh didn't send me quite as much info in his initial PM to me but this was my reply...

Hi Josh,

Just seen your message. I'll be happy to try and help.

You didn't say if it's standard or LPG converted? If it's LPG converted does the problem occur on petrol / LPG / either fuel?

Assuming it isn't LPG converted....

First of all I advise checking 'freeze frame data' to see under what conditions the fault codes are triggered. If the faults are triggered under very light engine loads there's a chance a vacuum leak is causing them.

It's also worth monitoring / checking fuel trims under various driving conditions, if fuel trims are generally highly positive the fault codes could be due to a duff MAF sensor.

I'm not sure if the V165 allows you to clear learned fuel trims, if it does it might be a good idea to try clearing learned fuel trims then allow the engine to fully cool down then start it and immediately start driving and using a wide range of engine loads. The 4.2 SC engine management system seems to base some sort of underlying idle base fuel trim on a kind of average of fuel trims learned when the engine is under load, so my thinking is perhaps the underlying idle fuel trims were for some reason learned wrong / too lean, in which case restting all trims and re-learning might see underlying idle fuel trims relearned correctly.

There's also the possibility of incorrect fuel pressure. The 4.2 SC fuel pump is variable output controlled by a fuel pump control module which is controlled by the ECU, so the ECU can 'command' a certain fuel pressure and the pump / module are supposed to deliver that pressure. The ECU can compensate for fluctuating fuel pressure but only within a certain range, so if there's a problem with the pump or module fuelling could be wrong due to a fuel pressure problem. But I think this is one of the less likely problems because most likely if there was a fuel pressure problem the ECU would generate a fault code for incorrect pressure.

If the lambda sensors are not the correct spec for the car or are worn out this could cause the error codes you're getting.

I think the MAF is likely but it's worth going through the above before changing the MAF.

Hope that helps.

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Fuel trims work like this... An ECU has a base map/table (picture a spreadsheet) that might have rpm on one axis and airflow or manifold pressure or throttle position on another axis, numbers in table cells tell the ECU how long to pulse injectors. That's the basis of an open loop system (one that doesn't have lambda sensors). A closed loop system (that has lambda sensors) has the same but also has a table for long term fuel trims and a momentary stored value (not a table) for short term fuel trims. The injectors are pulsed for whatever length the base table says + long term trim% + short term trim%. If the lambda sensors say the engine is running lean the value of STFT increases, if the lambda sensors say the engine is running rich the STFT decreases. If the momentary STFT remains positive for long enough it starts to increase the stored LTFT, if the momentary STFT remains negative for long enough it starts to decrease the stored LTFT. Whenever you change throttle position or rpms change the new length of time to pulse injectors for is read from the base table, the LTFT is also looked up from its table and added to the base table value but the STFT is reset to zero but the STFT will never stay at the same value for long.

You can imagine that when the vehicle is first built it has it's base map but the stored LTFT's are all zero. At this point at (say) 2000 rpm with (say) 10grams per second airflow the mixture won't be exactly correct... let's say it's 8% lean. So the STFT's very soon increase to +8% to compensate and bring the mixture correct. Now since the STFT's are hanging at +8% positive they start to steer the stored LTFT's, first maybe by just +1%, so now we have the base map figure +1% LTFT and if we stayed with +8% STFT the mixture would be 1% too rich so the STFT decreases to +7%. Then it would follow LTFT became +2% and STFT +6%, until eventually we end up with LTFT at +8% and STFT at 0%. Then as we drive around we change throttle position and rpm, but when we next use 2000rpm with 10grams per second airflow the stored LTFT for those conditions will already be at +8% so now the mixture is correct without the STFT needing to adjust mixture by very much at all. Eventually when all LTFT's have been learned in this way we can vary throttle position and rpm and mixture will be very close to correct all the time with very little need for adjustments from STFT's and this helps to improve driveability and mpg while decreasing emissions.

The Ford/Jag derived engines are a bit more complicated because they also adjust injector pulse length for fuel pressure which they read from the electronic fuel pressure sensor, and they can and do change fuel for different conditions.

They are fitted with wide band lambda sensors. It is difficult to interpret a lean or rich reading from a wide band lambda sensor using just read voltage or amp readings, it is better and more accurate to read 'lambda equivalent value' (or whatever terminology the scan tool or OBS system uses) using an OBD scan tool. A lambda equivalent value of 1 is correct (stochiometric) mixture, below 1 is rich (e.g 0.9 would be around 10% rich), above 1 is lean. Or some ECU's / scan tools will show mixture in terms of mass ratio in which case 14.7:1 would be correct, below 14.7:1 rich and above 14.7:1 lean. But you don't really need to see / read lamba values for purpose of diagnosing the problems you're having because it seems the lambda sensors are working and because you can get the info you need about mixture from the fuel trims.

If LTFT's are as high as 19% with STFT's +-7% it's not too surprising error codes pointing to 'system too lean' are occurring. The +19% will be close to the maximum LTFT's are allowed to be steered to, so if STFT is positive when LTFT is +19% we might expect a lean error code.

If the trims are highly positive around idle but decrease with increasing engine load it could point to a vacuum leak, because vacuum leaks have most effect when there is most difference between atmospheric and manifold pressure. If the trims are consistently highly positive it points away from a vacuum leak for the same reason, but might point more toward a MAF generally under-reading airflow problem. But like I said fuel pressure can also be a problem on these engines.

Incidentally what fuel are you using in it? Ethanol has a different stochiometric ratio to petrol, a higher percentage of ethanol in petroll naturally causes higher fuel trims than neat or low enthanol petrol.

Old school narrow band lambda sensors like 0>1V sensors are quite generic, in most cases you can use any sensor of the same type in any car if you cut the connector off and splice the wires in. But wide band sensors are different, you need the exact spec sensors to suit the car.

I believe there have been a lot of knock-off dodgy or slightly incompatible MAF sensors for these cars.

At this point I would recommend following my original advice to clear fuel trims, let the engine cool fully down, start it and immediately set off driving without letting it idle before setting off for the drive. If your scan tool doesn't have a function to clear fuel trims you can do it anyway by causing a 'very hard' error such as causing a misfire with a disconnected fuel injector, i.e.unplug a fuel injector and drive it (it is difficult to access injector plugs on a 4.2SC, but you could snip a wire at the injector multiplug at the rear end of a fuel rail), then reconnect the injector and when you clear the error codes it will also reset the fuel trims. During this driving don't stick to a certain throttle position and rpm for more than (say) 20 seconds, keep slightly changing throttle position or rpms. This is because during this time since LTFT's start at zero STFT's might need to be highly positive or negative, the STFT's are also limited in extent of range they can be steered to and if they reach close to the maximum or minimum instead of the LTFT's being steered the ECU sees it as an error condition and won't steer the LTFT's so you get a mixture related error code anyway. But by continually adjusting throttle / rpm the STFT is reset to zero and the 'clock' for timeout for rich/lean mixture is reset, while before STFT reaches maximum/minimum it will steer LTFT's. I also believe the Ford/Jag engine related ECU's have an underlying 'master' fuel trim... If the old skool model for a closed loop system was base table + LTFT + STFT the Ford/Jag wideband systems would be base table + master + fuel pressure + LTFT +STFT with 'master' kind of being learned one time during initial running when the vehicle was new or after resetting fuel trims (or after clearing a hard error which invokes clearing fuel trims), if the master is wrong fuel trims might never work within range and without having mixture related error codes occur.

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Thanks Lpgc for that description! That helped me understand it even better than the first time.