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The only place for a coil spring is up Zebedee's arse.
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Joined: Jun 07 2017
Posts: 164

There are two connectors now I see. The double one has never been connected as far as I can remember but I'm worried about the single one as it has a tag on it but no wire coming out. If the rats have been at it I cannot see any sign of another loose end anywhere unless they have done their homework and eaten it down to extinction !! Any ideas ? Included pic of car - tis a 3.9 if that helps. (If you are of a 'sensitive disposition' please ignore the rat trap (made in merica bought from Northern Ireland)

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Joined: Jan 06 2016
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Pics a bit fuzzy, but I'll have first guess...
Coolant temp sensor or switch judging by bluish tinge to it...

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
Posts: 164

Sorry about fuzz - yes it looks in the coolant line but if so where would the other end go to ? No easy sign of any other end hanging loose. At the moment I can't start the engine as I have to put on the new fuel pump - at least I would be able to see if the temp gauge on dash was affected !

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Single one is the temperature gauge sender for the dash. The wire should be a Green/Blue and goes back to pin 1 on C217, a 20 way white connector under the dash. The one with two connections is the cooling fan switch and should have two wires to it, one being a black wire going to ground, the other a Blue/Purple that goes back to the fan control module and condenser fan control relay via the condenser control diode.

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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Oh thanks - but now another hunt to find where it has gone - I did have the heater/ACon worked on sometime ago and I think that is beyond hope - but where did mr ratty put the temp gage wire .....................

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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I would suspect all three wires came out of the main loom at the same point. You should be able to find three gnawed off ends there somewhere.

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Joined: Nov 16 2016
Posts: 218

Not been on this forum for a few days, had a quick scan through posts since my last visit to catch up a bit.

Pleased to read the idle speed has been cured by elongating the holes as per Gilbert's advice. Not sure if I read there's still a very slight issue with ability to hold rpm at 1000 on the throttle, something to do with transition between off-throttle idle and coming on the throttle? If that's the case, couldn't the TPS be moved in slight steps from current position in elongated holes back toward standard position, small enough steps to allow the adaption to do it's thing? I'm not saying this to point fingers at the elongation method which was obviously a very good call by Gilbert, asking out of interest.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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I thought the same when I had to do it on mine years ago. Seems the adaptation will lower the reference voltage for a closed throttle if it detects that the TPS value has gone below what it is expecting, but doesn't seem to raise it. I suspect that this is because it assumes the throttle may not be fully closed for a reason.

A point that only Simon may understand and isn't really relevant to this thread but the same happens on the Leonardo on my car. After driving for hundreds of miles at a time at a fixed throttle opening, if it come off the throttle slightly, the Leo detects the drop in TPS voltage as closed throttle and closes the stepper down. If I then come off the throttle completely, it sees the lower voltage and resets the closed throttle setting so decelerates smoothly after that, It will only do it in France (or any other country where you aren't constantly slowing down for roadworks, dickheads that don't understand lane discipline, temporary speed limits and the various other things we find in this country) and can drive at a constant speed for hours at a time.

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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Just to keep you in the picture - been rather lazy since getting the car to do more or less what it should and it is not bad. The idle is a touch lower than what I regard as normal but when I tried to rotate the TPS slightly to speed up I found it very hard to get the slight increase needed - a fraction of an inch seemed to make too big a difference so I let it sit back at the zero position. Meanwhile, the loss of power at low revs -typically in the 1000- 1500 range (throttle more or less closed just traveling on flat) - when calling for power for slight hill is slightly less noticeable. But this does seem related to ambient heat - it has become much cooler now September is here and instead of outside air being 37 ish it is more like 27. I have yet to change the CPS - it will be interesting to see if that is affecting it - but if it is a heat related fault I'd better do it soon otherwise it may not show. I think I have seen people say that the CPS can be faulty - coils failing ? as a result of heat and age - anyway it does seem related to a sensor information being wrong or variable.

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
Posts: 63

super4 wrote:

Just to keep you in the picture - been rather lazy since getting the car to do more or less what it should and it is not bad. The idle is a touch lower than what I regard as normal but when I tried to rotate the TPS slightly to speed up I found it very hard to get the slight increase needed - a fraction of an inch seemed to make too big a difference so I let it sit back at the zero position. Meanwhile, the loss of power at low revs -typically in the 1000- 1500 range (throttle more or less closed just traveling on flat) - when calling for power for slight hill is slightly less noticeable. But this does seem related to ambient heat - it has become much cooler now September is here and instead of outside air being 37 ish it is more like 27. I have yet to change the CPS - it will be interesting to see if that is affecting it - but if it is a heat related fault I'd better do it soon otherwise it may not show. I think I have seen people say that the CPS can be faulty - coils failing ? as a result of heat and age - anyway it does seem related to a sensor information being wrong or variable.

The cps would be whats telling the ecu when to fire the coils - so either might be the cause, though I'd expect a cps to be more noticeable all the time.

The coils I've had fail are usually barely noticeable at idle, but like being kicked up the backside anywhere between 1500rpm and 3000ish and usually not very noticeable over that, particularly bad on acceleration (worse so on gentle acceleration). And played up with temperature as well.

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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Yes - coils sound possible - and what you describe is more or less exactly what happens - but perhaps I did a daft thing - months ago I got a second hand coil pack and changed it. When I started the engine it sounded smooth and ok but that was also the case with the old coil pack when cold. So I don't have a definitive idea that the changed coil pack is 100%. Since then I have been through all the LPG setups and problems which are back to normal. But despite new plugs, leads - fiddle with TPS (still old), the acceleration was still showing a problem at times. If you were in the car at the time I have no doubt that any of you would spot the problem. After all my fiddling with TPS and other bits it does seem a lot better but as I explained, the heat is off the summer and it is much more like normal. But since the only significant thing I have moved/played with is the TPS it may be that that has reset something now that it starts its signal from the base/start on the pot. Still not able to do a reset with a Nanocom/ testbook thingy.

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
Posts: 63

super4 wrote:

Yes - coils sound possible - and what you describe is more or less exactly what happens - but perhaps I did a daft thing - months ago I got a second hand coil pack and changed it. When I started the engine it sounded smooth and ok but that was also the case with the old coil pack when cold. So I don't have a definitive idea that the changed coil pack is 100%. Since then I have been through all the LPG setups and problems which are back to normal. But despite new plugs, leads - fiddle with TPS (still old), the acceleration was still showing a problem at times. If you were in the car at the time I have no doubt that any of you would spot the problem. After all my fiddling with TPS and other bits it does seem a lot better but as I explained, the heat is off the summer and it is much more like normal. But since the only significant thing I have moved/played with is the TPS it may be that that has reset something now that it starts its signal from the base/start on the pot. Still not able to do a reset with a Nanocom/ testbook thingy.

Given the rat activity it would be helpful to prove it is or is not an ignition problem - The testers i posted earlier (even a single one would be of some use) would at least let you prove there is or is not an ignition fault, and narrow it down to which cylinders etc.

Does the GEMS use a pair of coil packs like the Thor? When you changed them was it a single one or the whole lot?

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GEMS uses 4 separate double ended coils instead of the Thor which has two blocks, each consisting of a pair of double ended ones in one block. If the GEMS was capable of giving individual misfire codes per cylinder, it would be easy to spot one iffy coil, unfortunately it isn't so it's down to the more traditional methods. The problem with the spark testers is that if the misfire only occurs when under load, you'd need to drive with the bonnet open and someone sitting in the engine bay to look at them.

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
Posts: 63

Gilbertd wrote:

GEMS uses 4 separate double ended coils instead of the Thor which has two blocks, each consisting of a pair of double ended ones in one block. If the GEMS was capable of giving individual misfire codes per cylinder, it would be easy to spot one iffy coil, unfortunately it isn't so it's down to the more traditional methods. The problem with the spark testers is that if the misfire only occurs when under load, you'd need to drive with the bonnet open and someone sitting in the engine bay to look at them.

I'd expected to find that to be the case to be honest, but with 4 on a bank there was a noticable difference even sat stationary at idle on cylinder 2 and 3. If Super4 can borrow some from somewhere it would be worth a try at least.

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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Yes my GEMS has 4 separate coils. Without going to the expense of a brand new proven coil pack I suppose I could play 'musical chairs' swapping individual coils between the two used packs that I have. But I'm a bit lazy and you know the amount of fiddle factor getting them changed and tested one by one. I'm very stubborn so will probably get round to it. It is definitely a heat related problem as one can see the change in low power/speed the hotter the day and journey gets. Did try testing with an ohmmeter although not sure what I was doing - could not see a discrepancy but remember this was done off car in the cold.

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As a matter of interest, the breakers yards here in Spain on the very busy coast are many and vast. There is a problem in that older vehicles seem to be got rid of in the yards quite soon - something to do with the way the law treats disposal of older cars. The big yards by Malaga Airport (the size of football fields) with cars stacked on scaffold sometimes, do have a system of removed spares on shelf but this is a bit hit and miss. The other problem for P38 petrol people is that most P38's that were bought here seem to be diesel. Just for interest I'll try and stick a Google pic of what they look like from the air !!

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Do "Parking Rules" apply?!

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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When you go to the yards - all separate - in rows along the street - you go into the office - tell them your car and roughly what you want and then you go on your own to the row number you are given where you expect to find your car type. If you find the right one there is no guarantee what is left - all the best is usually gone and as I said before - few P38 petrol here they are few and far between - and it is an old car by their standards. But I have had a nearly new air suspension pump which was a good find for reasonable cost. When you find a bit you want they send a mechanic who removes it and you take it to the office where they price it ! If you have no luck in one you go along the street to the next - there are 4-5 - it can take a long time. It is quite a big business here. I never knew of places on this scale in UK.

Oh and by the way Orange - the biggest parking problem is in the street outside !

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Joined: Jun 07 2017
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I bumped into (not literally) a friend here who has been trying to sell her Spanish plated left hand drive 4.6 (Westminster) 200 3 Range Rover for ages and she admitted that no one was interested - not easy to sell a thirsty old luxury car here. So I asked her how much she was selling now for - will tell you later. I don't know the mileage/kilometers - she has spent nearly six thousand pounds on garage bills but it seems in reasonable condition so I called my wealthy swiss miss in Switzerland and she has agreed to help me buy. Of course it is not on LPG and under Spanish rules never can be so what is the mpg for a 4.6 ?? My 4.0 is about 18 to the gallon. Presumably it is a Thor with whatever that means. I'm still committed to getting mine up to scratch but there are complications if you are resident here and have a UK legal vehicle for more than 6 months of the year !! Anyway, I filmed it to show you and would value as ever any comments about things I should watch out for and what do you think is a 'going' price I Would it have GPS ? - Haven't got access to the car yet - here's the film https://youtu.be/8R1zbntx91M