Hi guys, I am interested in information regarding the transmission brake on a late 2001 P38. The reason I ask is because I intended to replace the brake shoes in the handbrake but it turned out to be a dogs dinner !!

I read the RAVE description of how to do the job and expected to be able to do it in about 2 hours, but 6 hours later I was putting everything back together because my transmission brake seems to be different from the one described in RAVE.

RAVE says to disconnect the propshaft at the rear of the handbrake drum, where there is a rubber doughnut. So I started this and got one bolt out. The two other bolts were turned towards the top of the transmission tunnel so I said to myself just turn the propshaft with a large screwdriver. But that turned out to be impossible - because the car is a permanent 4 wheel drive, and even though the car is in neutral with the back wheels jacked up the front wheels are still connected through the transfer case.

I put a fuse in F11, and got the message that the transfer case was selected, but I still couldn't turn the propshaft. The only way of doing it was to actually drive the car a bit until the remaining two bolts turned around so that I could get a spanner on them. I then removed all three bolts holding one side of the rubber doughnut, and expected to drop the propshaft, as per RAVE. But nothing happened. So I then removed the other three bolts that hold the doughnut, so that the doughnut was free to move, but the propshaft was going nowhere. The only thing was that now I could turn the propshaft because it was no longer connected to the transmission brake drum.

On inspection I then found that my transmission brake is quite different from the one described in RAVE. Firstly, the reason that the propshaft can't be removed is because there is a short stub sticking out from the three legged connection on the back of the handbrake drum. This prevents the propshaft from being removed. The only way to remove the propshaft is to drop the UJ end, at the rear axle. And of course these were rusted solid. Cut them off is the only solution, so out with the angle grinder with a thin cutting blade, I use a 9 inch grinder.

So I cut off the 4 bolts and hoorah, I was able to remove the propshaft, which isn't the way RAVE says that is the method for replacing the handbrake shoes.

I thought that I was finally at the point whereby I could now pull off the handbrake drum. RAVE says to unscrew a large Phillips screw that holds on the drum. But there is nno large Phillips screw on mine, instead there are 4 nuts sticking out of the drum which I suspect are holding the drum on, but at this point I decided that this is a garage job as I have no idea what the 4 nuts are screwed on to. If I loosen these nuts I may not be able to tighten them without removing the drum, which I can't do. I tried to lever the drum off but it is held tight, so something is holding it. Is it these four nuts ? Who knows, because RAVE doesn't cover this handbrake.

I am wondering if LR decided to fit a different type of transmission brake by the time of my P38, i.e. June 2001. Whatever it is, it isn't in RAVE.

If anyone has come across this type of transmission brake perhaps they could explain how to get the handbrake drum off. So far I know that you have to drop the propshaft entirely, which isn't described in RAVE, and that the drum is not held on with a large Phillips screw.

Any advice will be appreciated.

Pierre3.

There's no point in disconnecting it at the doughnut as the flange that is bolted to the back of the drum is what is holding it on. Inside the drum is the output from the transfer case with captive bolts so you can undo the nuts and remove the output flange, drop the propshaft off (as it will move on the sliding joint further back) as long as the suspension is on High so the propshaft is at its most extended. That then allows you to get to the Philips screws and pull the drum off. The only thing that is different on yours is that you have the rubber doughnut on the propshaft which the petrol versions don't have.

With one end jacked up and transmission/transfer case in neutral you should be able to turn the propshaft (although not that easily because of the viscous coupling), but it is easier with one side up (rather than one end).

th.

Hi guys, thanks for the information.

Thor, I could not turn the propshaft at all when the car is jacked up. I had it on axle stands and even with a long tyre bar I couldn't turn the handbrake. It seemed to be locked solid. I even tried putting a fuse into F11 to see if that would work but no luck. But - I seem to remember that if the car is just lift to High on the EAS and then, with the wheels chocked, handbrake off, and the gearbox in Park, then I was able to turn the transmission brake drum.

Richard, when I eventually got the propshaft off I had in front of me the brake drum, this has four nuts bolted on to something inside the drum somewhere. Then there is a metal flange with three wings bolted to the drum [I think] and this flange has a metal spigot about 4 inches long sticking out of the back of the metal flange. The propshaft, along with the doughnut slides onto this spigot, so there is no way to move the propshaft out of the way without completely disconnecting everything, i.e. both the front doughnut and the rear UJ on the rear diff. I just isn't possible to remove because you can't slide the propshaft back far enough to clear the spigot, at the front.

What I am getting at is that there is nothing like the diagram in RAVE. This shows a ring area with the Phillips screw, which is accessed by removing the front of the propshaft and pulling down, to reveal the screw. On my car you can't do this. The propshaft has to be dropped to allow you to have access to the bolts which are on the outside, and back, of the brake drum.

So what I need to know is - having removed the propshaft do I then undo the four 14mm [or thereabouts, could be 17mm] nuts from the back of the handbrake drum ? Is it these four nuts which is holding on the drum as there is no Phillips screw visible ?

Pierre3.

Pierre3 wrote:

So what I need to know is - having removed the propshaft do I then undo the four 14mm [or thereabouts, could be 17mm] nuts from the back of the handbrake drum ? Is it these four nuts which is holding on the drum as there is no Phillips screw visible ?

Those 4 nuts is what you should have undone to remove the propshaft and left the doughnut where it was. The nuts are 9/16th but 14mm is close enough to fit. Once those nuts are undone, the propshaft can be moved back far enough for it to drop down and out of the way. No need to remove it completely as you have done.

This shows the rear propshaft, the main picture is for a petrol with a UJ at each end, the diesel, for some reason, has the rubber doughnut instead of the front UJ. So you have split the propshaft into two and only removed the rear section not all of it.

Richard, very many thanks for posting the image here.

I tried to push the propshaft backwards but it would only go so far, there is a rubber bush at the diff end of the propshaft [around nr. 6 in your image] which is preventing the shaft from going any further back. At its full travel backwards there isn't enough room to maneuver the shaft over the spigot [shown on nr. 11].

Also the item nr. 11 in your image is bolted to the back of the handbrake drum, thus preventing access to the Phillips screw underneath it. I am unsure as to removing these four nuts as I don't know if there is anything bolted to the inside of the drum that I can't see. The spigot and the complete 3 lug fitting [ image nr. 11] is bolted to the brake drum, and the rubber doughnut [in image nr 12] is between the 3 arm lug fitting [image nr. 11] and the propshaft. But when I took out all of the bolts the doughnut was loose but the spigot [in image nr. 11] would not let anything be removed, despite not having anything connected.

The most annoying thing is not being able to turn the propshaft without actually starting the car and moving it, under power, enough to access the nuts and bolts on the doughnut fitting. It would be so much easier if you could just turn the propshaft while the car is jacked up to give a bit of work space. I don't understand why the transfer case locks the transmission when the car is in neutral with the handbrake off.

I put a fuse in F11, checked that the display registered the fuse, but that didn't work.

Anyway, I will give it another go while the weather is good, but I suspect that I won't get any further in trying to fit new handbrake shoes. I think that it will be going to my local garage guy, who has a couple of nice lifts. I believe that you need to have a lift to be able to turn the brake drum and propshaft with all four wheels off the ground.

It is all getting very depressing, trying to do what appear to be an hours job, and it turns out to be two days [ I had to re-adjust the handbrake today].

Pierre3.

With one wheel at each end off the ground, you can rotate the propshafts. So as you have it with both rear wheels off the ground and both fronts on the ground, the viscous coupling in the transfer case will allow movement but it is hard work and you need to hang on it and wait. If both front and rear can turn, then the problem is stopping the propshaft rotating when you try to undo the nuts..... All you need to do is lift one front wheel off the ground. In fact, if I am doing them, I put the suspension on High and jack up the left front and rear wheels. Disconnecting the propshaft then is simply a case of undoing the 4 nuts at the drum and dropping it down, should take about 10 minutes.

Then, with the 4 nuts on the back of the brake drum you can remove ALL of the propshaft and not just bits of it. Inside the drum is a flange, a sort of mirror image to the one on the outside. It is arranged so the flats of the bolts are against the centre so they can't turn and the bolts can't fall back because there isn't anywhere for them to move back into. The spigot on the propshaft flange is there to stop the propshaft flailing around under the car if the doughnut breaks. Hopefully you marked where the doughnut was attached or you could have upset the balance by taking it apart somewhere you wouldn't normally take apart.

Hi Richard, thanks again for your information.

Unfortunately, I didn't mark the positions of the doughnut and propshaft because I had read that with the late P38 set-up it was not necessary to have to mark the components.

I think that I may take the car out tomorrow to check that it is running OK

Pierre3

If it is out you'll get a vibration through the seat of your pants.

Now you know how to do it, you may as well change the parking brake shoes before bothering to take it out. Then you can check everything.

Richard, I like your optimism !!!

Just out of interest, if I am getting vibration what is the solution ?

Pierre3.

If you get vibration when you didn't before splitting the propshaft, rotate the doughnut and hope you can get it back where it was before.

OK, thanks, Richard. I will, hopefully, be able to get it done tomorrow, provided the weather stays clear.

I will drink a toast to you with a good, vintage, single malt !!!!

Pierre3.