My car has LPG, and it all works, however i'm beginning to question its continued worth, especially as its probably wanting some TLC.

The car doesnt run as well on the LPG as it does on petrol, feels a bit flat. Ofcourse thats typically offset by a huge cost saving that makes it worthwhile. Theres also a few drivability issues at high throttle demand.

However as LPG becomes harder to find, (the last few times i've gone to the local place they've been out of stock), i've also noticed the cost saving deminishing to the point of questionability...

My local place is now charging £1 a litre for LPG, vs £1.45 for petrol. However the car uses more fuel on LPG, which cuts into the saving. I recon it uses at least 25% more LPG than petrol. Plus its a bit of a detour to the next town over to buy it, and its the only place around that has it any more.

I've always reconned a tank of LPG at around 85L gets me 200-220miles or so. That works out around 12mpg and at £1 costs about 37p a mile

if we assume 15mpg on petrol at £1.45 thats 43p a mile

It used to be that LPG was half the price of petrol and meant the running costs were down in the 20p range, but 37 vs 43 seems barely worth it?

How are others finding it?

There's multiple reasons why LPG has gone up in price. It always did rise (and get harder to find) during the winter due to the demand for people using it for domestic heating and cooking, but this year hasn't gone back down. It went up to around a pound a litre when petrol and diesel almost hit two pounds but it hasn't come down correspondingly. The other problem is the Motor Fuel Group (MFG). A few months ago my local Flogas depot was selling at 78p per litre and the 4 Morrisons in my area (Wisbech, St Ives, Camborne and Pinchbeck) were all at 79.9p. Any filling stations operated by MFG, were all selling at 99.9p so not doing much business unless someone had no alternative. The other cheap ones were operated by Euro Garages, owned by the same people as Asda, with a local one selling at 64.9p when Flogas were 78p! The local EG one has changed hands and I suspect is also now run by MFG as they are charging £1.05.

MFG have taken over the running of all Morrisons forecourts and all immediately put there price up to 99.9p, to match the other MFG owned sites. It may be that they have also done the same with ASDA sites too. The takeover of Morrisons was subject to an investigation by the Competition Markets Authority and they were forced to keep petrol and diesel prices down, but obviously not LPG. My local Flogas depot were told by their head office to increase their price to get closer to other sources in the area so are now charging 90p. One area of the country that MFG don't appear to have a foothold is Birmingham. If you look at autogas.app in the Birmingham area, not only are there plenty of filling stations but most are around the 70p mark, if not lower! I was there recently and filled up at one (not far off the M6 either) that only did LPG (no other fuels), 4 pumps, 6 huge tanks and 73p a litre.

So, while the price differential between LPG and petrol isn't great, making it seem like it is hardly worth it, particularly if a car doesn't run well on it. Mine actually runs better on LPG than petrol, probably because it very rarely uses any petrol. I'd say stick at it and wait for the differential to increase. Plus the fact that I do a lot of driving in Europe and the most expensive country is France at 1 Euro a litre (so roughly 85p) while most of the others are less or a lot less (anything between 50 and 80 Euro cents). I'm fortunate in having Flogas locally, and 4 branches of Morrisons all within half an hour but if it gets really difficult I'll just invest £300 in a pump so I can fill from 47kg bottles and that will be enough for my local use (and a fill will easily get me to Dover so I can get on a ferry to more sensible countries). My step-daughter lives in the Netherlands and has two filling station just around the corner from her house. 3 years ago neither did LPG but have both since been refurbished and have had EV charge points and LPG installed. In fact, not far from where she lives a new filling station has been built with LPG, CNG, Hydrogen and EV charge points but no petrol or diesel at all.

yeah i suspect if your doing plenty miles then it all helps. I only did 2000miles last year in it and we're half way thru this year and its only done about 200miles since its MOT.

I imagine LPG volumes are low at most of these filling stations, so they're increasing the price to help cover their costs. We're no doubt reaching the point where most cars on the road are Direct Injection and cant use it. So its only holdouts like us with 20-30 year old motors that are actually buying any, and those old cars will slowly whittle away.

The only places near me (within perhaps 25-30miles) with LPG at all are a couple morrisons and an asda.

Direct injection can be converted these days, albeit at a marginally greater cost than a port injection system, the factory fit Dacia range being a prime example. They actually produce more power and are more economical on LPG too.

Agreed, I'm doing 30-35,000 a year, so the cost saving, even if it isn't great, is worthwhile. If you aren't doing the mileage then the benefits aren't anything like as good. I will say though that I attribute running on a cleaner hydrocarbon fuel without any additives to the longevity of my engine. I change the oil every 10,000 miles and it is still clean after that mileage.

As it happens, the Dacia is port injected. The Nissan HR engine is availalbe in both port and DI variants, with the DI versions used in the higher spec models. The factory LPG Dacias use the port injected version.
I suspect mostly for cost reasons, many small capacity cheap engines are still port injected, but these arent often the types of cars that attract LPG installs, as they're already pretty cheap to run.

You really dont see any newer range rovers etc on LPG these days, whereas it was super common in the P38's years.

I think the high output diesels over the past 10-15 years has really dampened the demand for LPG in large SUV's. In the P38's day and even into early L322 era, the petrol engines had a significant power advantage, making it worthwhile buying the V8 and dealing with the LPG setup... But once you got the likes of the TDV8's producing 300+hp the whole scene starts to shift. Most folk buying the petrol V8 at that point over the diesel probably arent particuarly bothered about fuel consumption, especially with the £735 a year in tax!

And you can see that looking at the numbers on ebay, most of the LPG equipped cars are before 2009, with only tiny numbers between 2009 and 2020, with a bit of an uptick after that which are almost all Dacias.

One positive is that working LPG means i can probably squeak thru an MOT with my worn out catalytic converters. Though i'm not entirely sure thats a good thing 😂

I've been thinking the same thing recently. In my area there's a single station selling at 90.9p (North East). If they decide to stop selling LPG or increase the price much more then I may consider removing the system as there would nowhere to fill up without a huge detour.

Gilbertd wrote:

I was there recently and filled up at one (not far off the M6 either) that only did LPG (no other fuels), 4 pumps, 6 huge tanks and 73p a litre.

Sounds like "Supergaz" on Washwood Heath Rd? I like that station. They open late and even fill your car for you so you don't even need to get out.

jacckk wrote:

Sounds like "Supergaz" on Washwood Heath Rd? I like that station. They open late and even fill your car for you so you don't even need to get out.

It was, I was staying a couple of days in Coleshill and it was the nearest one from there, but looking on autogas.app, there's plenty more all around the same price if not lower.

Wee bump on this... How are others fairing?

Since my last post, i've not actually used LPG at all. My local asda has removed its LPG tanks. The Morrisons about 10miles away (and any other nearby stations) are now 129.9p and is often out of stock. At that price, i think its acutally cheaper running on petrol due to the LPG efficiency drop...!

The only sticking point is the MOT. Its due this month and i suspect its going to fail on emissions, the LPG always gives it some extra wiggle room. Contemplating a 30mile drive to Dundee to get some LPG just to put it thru the MOT on gas....

That would be a good call, even paying the MFG ripoff price at Morrisons for half a tankful would get you through the MoT.

I've got a Flogas depot that is nearer to me than anywhere else and they are selling at 90p per litre. As they are only open Mon-Fri office hours no good at weekends so I, along with multiple others in the area, will fill up on a Friday. There's a few others at anything from 81.9 (Milton Keynes) up to numerous places at £1.10 which, while expensive, is still cheaper than Morrisons now so if I need LPG at a weekend I'll use one of them and bung in enough to last me until Monday.

Even if the savings aren't enough to make it cheaper than petrol, I'll still run on LPG. That is what I attribute to the longevity of my engine (now at 523,000) and the recently purchased red one still runs like a dog on petrol but perfectly on LPG.

I produce and sell pump setups that pump gas from red propane bottles into LPG converted vehicles tanks :-)

I sell the pumps for £375 + £8 shipping privately (away from Ebay that takes commision), or at £399 + £8 shipping through EBay.

To save some typing and posting pictures here I will include a link to my Ebay listing, but obviously if anyone reading this wants to buy a pump it would be better to contact me directly. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326295382117

I have 47kg (92.1 litre) red propane bottles delivered to home for £79.50 exchange from a local bottled gas company, this works out at 86.4p per litre. The pump is easy to use, runs from a 12v car battery and takes around 30minutes to pump the entire contents of the 92.1L bottle into my vehicle tank. No need for a separate 12v battery, just pop the bonnet and connect the power lead to the vehicle battery.

There are still forecourts local to me that sell LPG at a fairly reasonable price (92p at a local BP station) but I more often refuel at home using one of these pumps. Morrisons used to be my usual go-to forecourt but not since MFG increased the price to £1.299 per litre.

There are pros and cons to both filling at forecourts and filling at home from a bottle. I would prefer LPG to still be widely available at a low price from forecourts but it is very convenient filling at home. If you're miles from home it's a disadvantage that the cheapest place to refuel is at home but if you have decent range on LPG it becomes less of a disadvantage, while for some people/vehicles it would be possible to take a red bottle in the luggage area and refuel anywhere. The pump can also pump from bottle to bottle (may need a different output line 'end fitting' bought from me, or could use a bottle filling adapter instead)... So could pump from a large bottle into smaller bottles at home then take some smaller bottles in the vehicle luggage area to refuel from. On my own vehicle I fitted a 2nd LPG tank, if both LPG tanks are full I have 700 miles range on LPG and the original petrol tank still fitted gives another 350 miles range... I may yet remove the petrol tank and fit another LPG tank in its place but I already have no range anxiety with 700 miles range on LPG.

I imagine in the fairly distant future if EVs become the majority of vehicles on the road forecourts selling petrol and diesel will start to close too. But if I live long enough to see EVs start to take over I imagine it will still be legal to run a vehicle with a proper engine (especially if running on LPG) and I intend on still running a vehicle with a proper engine on LPG... Just refuel at home from a red bottle. LPG continues to be the cheapest fuel to run a vehicle on, no need to pay the price of a new vehicle (or suffer the depreciation).

Like Gilbert, I'd still run on LPG if there was no saving versus running on petrol, my oil stays clean far longer when running on LPG versus petrol.
When I was rebuilding my boat engine I read quite a lot on engine builder forums, a lot of people were saying that back in the days of carburettors they'd expect to see cylinder bore cross hatching worn smooth on high mileage engines but the same engines running fuel injection instead of carbs are likely to retain the cross hatching, they attribute this to the finer fuel atomisation of fuel injection being less likely to dilute the oil film on cylinder walls. LPG is a vapour before it enters the engine and won't dilute the oil film on cylinder walls, furthermore it burns cleanly and doesn't cause as much carbon or other contaminants build up in the oil.
Filling at home from a bottle I expect there'll always be a good saving running on LPG, its main use as a fuel is for home heating customers so its price has to stay competitive in that market or the gas supply companies will go bust, they might not care much about the increasingly niche market of LPG as a road fuel but these companies will want to stay competitive in the home heating market.

Is it possible to have a bulk LPG tank installed (like for LPG central heating) & fill up from that? What would be the cost per litre if LPG is bought in bulk?

It is but the rules are pretty strict as it needs to be a certain distance from the house and the boundaries and then it needs to have a bottom (liquid) take off too. So most people's houses aren't really suitable unless they have a huge garden. As for prices I can't find any of the suppliers that quote a price online, they all want you to enquire for a quote, but this thread from earlier in the year suggests around 50-65p per litre https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=207&t=2068231.

I was prompted to ask the question as in a previous house with no mains gas I had LPG central heating installed. They buried the tank so it wasn't an eye sore & the bit above ground was minimal. I assume that if the tank were buried it could still have a bottom take-off but presumably would need a pump to move the liquid LPG into the car's fuel tank. It would only be the (hopefully sensible) safety regulations that dictate where the tank could be buried.

As you know at our UK house we have no garden at all so there is nowhere to put an LPG tank & in our French cottage there is room we have no need when LPG is widely available although E85 (85% bioethanol) is much cheaper & just as widely available. If we were to move & the new property had an existing LPG tank I wonder if we would be able to utilise it?

BTW I assume that using 47KG bottles or an LPG bulk tank we should really be paying 28.88p per kilogram fuel duty.

nigelbb wrote:

If we were to move & the new property had an existing LPG tank I wonder if we would be able to utilise it?

I don't know if tanks come with a blanked off bottom take off or if you would need a specific tank but yes, you would need a pump to transfer it to a car.

BTW I assume that using 47KG bottles or an LPG bulk tank we should really be paying 28.88p per kilogram fuel duty.

Strictly speaking, yes you should declare what you put in your car to HMRC and pay the fuel duty and quite possibly the difference in VAT too as domestic fuel is 5% VAT rated (so that is what you would pay your supplier) but road fuel is taxed at the 20% rate. That is one of my arguments against EVs, anyone that charges at home is using electricity intended for domestic heating and cooking so only has 5% VAT on it and no road fuel duty. Charging at a public charge point and it has 20% VAT on it.

Strictly speaking yes you should pay road duty and VAT on top if using gas as a road fuel... But i don't know of anyone who bought one of my pumps who does.

A couple of my pump buyers have bulk tanks at home and bought the pump for purpose of refuelling their vehicle from the bulk tank. I advised them they'd need a liquid take-off fitting to the bulk tank with an isolation valve on the tank itself to turn off the gas feed to the input line to the pump, but told them I wouldn't get involved with the bulk tank liquid take-off modification. Nevertheless they seemed to find getting the bulk tank liquid take-off modification fitted by a qualified bulk tank engineer no problem - Obviously the tank has to be empty before fitting the liquid take-off. The liquid take-off doesn't need to be fitted to the bottom of the bulk tank, it can be fitted to the top if a pipe from the take-off point runs internally to the bottom inside the tank.

On page six of this PDF brochure from Flo-gas there is a diagram of an LPG bulk tank which shows a gas fill valve & a separate liquid offtake valve next to it so these might be easy to adapt.

https://assets.flogas.co.uk/uploads/Your-Technical-Guide-Bulk-Consumer.pdf

Some forecourt style LPG vehicle refuelling pumps have a built in pressure regulator... so there are 2 pipes running from the tank to the pump, one is obviously the liquid feed pipe, the 2nd pipe is the return pipe from the regulator. Edit - LPG pump pressure regulator so plumbed between the output side of the pump and back to the tank.

I say this to prevent anyone with an existing bulk tank making the mistake of thinking they've found an easy way to plumb a forecourt pump to their tank, so buying one, only to realise there isn't an easy way to connect a return line. Maybe there is an easy way to connect a return line but I don't see how from looking at the diagrams linked to above.

There are several Autogas LPG bulk tanks for sale on eBay but £7.5K for this 1,410 litre one is a bit too pricey.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144743044467

It isn't just the tank though, it's a full system complete with pump and filling hose. Smiths pump are ridiculously expensive on their own.

nigelbb wrote:

There are several Autogas LPG bulk tanks for sale on eBay but £7.5K for this 1,410 litre one is a bit too pricey.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/144743044467

That listing is from Birmingham Autogas, if you site your tank within a certain distance from them they'll supply you with gas at very reasonable price per litre too. The problem for me and most people is that the certain distance is within relatively short range of Birmingham... I contacted them ages ago.