Hi folks. I found a post from Gordonjcp-adm from a few years ago on the forum here. It is the first one I have come across where someone has said exactly what is happening with my car right now. I have the exact issue as Sloth has described here in this link https://rangerovers.pub/topic/1591-gems-no-crank-no-start#content "So the car appears to be behaving normally - no EKA or disabled message, and the BECM is firing off the mobilisation code - it's just the wrong code".
I've searched all over for a fix but I haven't found any that don't involve spending a small fortune(I really couldn't afford any of them even if I needed to.) on other devices in the links provided in that original post.

So what has happened and what led up to the issue. Yesterday 30/05/2021 my wife & I went for a drive in our 2001 4.0 HSE. We started and stopped several times without any issues. Then at what was, unfortunately, our last (unplanned) stop, we got back in the car to go off elsewhere but the car just wouldn't crank over. In the end, we called Green Flag and they sent someone out to assist. We went through everything I had tried as I have listed below. In the end, we had to get the car lifted on a flatbed from Preston Mill near Edinburgh to our home near Lanark (Scotland).
So here is where I am up to in trying to solve this issue:
Battery checked and is at +12.45v. Checked relay & fuses. Relay is clicking. Jumped relay pins for starter motor and it works as should.
Clicking from under passenger seat when trying to crank. Engine check light is on when in position 2 - as it should be.
No warning on the dash saying the engine is immobilised.
The key battery is relatively new & no messages saying the key isn't synced. No EKA notification for entering code. No code saying key needs synchronising.
What have I done to try & resolve this?
I hit up RAVE for troubleshooting and tried a few of the things it says today & without success. I put the key in the ignition, turned to position 2 & pressed the unlock button. Door latches all clicked as they should when the car is being unlocked. I turned the key to crank & still nothing. I then performed a remote lock and within 30 seconds performed a key unlock. No change. I have scanned forums for similar but all those I did find didn't have the check engine light on when the key is in position 2.
Plugged in Hawkeye to see if there are any faults but that was a negative. I don't have Facebook to ask on there either so can't ask there. I really am at a loss. I forgot to mention I also only have one working key fob. I do own a second one but no matter how many times I tried it just wouldn't sync with the car. So I haven't needed to use it in the 4 years I have had the car.
I truly am at a loss for solving this. So if someone can come to me & solve this for me or at least point me in the correct direction to take to get the car running again it would be greatly appreciated. It's our only car and we need it running asap. I hope I have covered all of the steps one would expect people to have tried. If not then please let me know.

Thanks in advance.
Craig

The one thing I can't see you having said you've done, is checked the XYZ switch (which would only apply if its an Automatic)?

Does the gear display in the dash and lights on the stick indicate the right gear? The Nanocom will tell you the positions of the 3 switches and Rave will tell you what they should be in each gear. If it doesn't see either Neutral or park, it will not attempt to start.

BrianH wrote:

The one thing I can't see you having said you've done, is checked the XYZ switch (which would only apply if its an Automatic)?

Does the gear display in the dash and lights on the stick indicate the right gear? The Nanocom will tell you the positions of the 3 switches and Rave will tell you what they should be in each gear. If it doesn't see either Neutral or park, it will not attempt to start.

Hi Brian & thanks for replying. Yes the car is an automatic (I always thought all non-diesel P38's were automatics) indicates the correct gear. However, to make sure I did go through every gear position to see if it would start in any of the other ones. When we parked it up at the final place it was driving perfectly and everything was working as it should do. This is why this is really strange.

The thread you linked to was for an earlier P38 with a GEMS engine - those don't crank when the immobilisation sync between BECM and engine ECU is lost, unlike a Thor (which yours will be, being a 2001). A Thor will crank all day but just not start.

To not crank at all, is a bit odd, if it isn't showing any disabled messages. If the remote is locking and unlocking properly too, then it really shouldn't be an immobiliser issue. As above, if the dash display is showing P for park, it should crank.

What happens if you bridge the starter relay to make it crank yourself with the ignition in position 2? Any signs of firing?

Sloth wrote:

The thread you linked to was for an earlier P38 with a GEMS engine - those don't crank when the immobilisation sync between BECM and engine ECU is lost, unlike a Thor (which yours will be, being a 2001). A Thor will crank all day but just not start.

To not crank at all, is a bit odd, if it isn't showing any disabled messages. If the remote is locking and unlocking properly too, then it really shouldn't be an immobiliser issue. As above, if the dash display is showing P for park, it should crank.

What happens if you bridge the starter relay to make it crank yourself with the ignition in position 2? Any signs of firing?

Thanks. I always get the two confused. Nope, no sign of starting at all.

I jumped the starter fine yesterday but the car wouldn't start at all. All that was happening was a click. Today? The starter motor is doing nothing at all. I guess that answers my problem, or does it? I can't get under the car easily myself so, with that in mind (if that is the problem) then I'm goosed right now.

Just to be sure, pull a spark plug and check for a spark (with ignition in pos 2 and jumpering the starter relay).

To be clear: When you jump the starter relay, does it crank every time? or did it crank yesterday, but not today??
If it will not consistently crank, just click, then your starter is stuffed. Probably worn, and sticking brushes.

Could also be a bad connection at the starter. a failed fuse box can also keep the power from getting to the solenoid.
You need to get under there and jump it at the starter itself. Is the
"Click" an robust one from the starter, or a quiet one from the fuse box?

I'd check wiring from battery to solenoid on starter ---- sounds like starter issue

Like Symes and Bolt, plus one ... fault may be found somewhere in the starter circuit. Just a bad starter solenoid ...

Hmm. To crank = to spin the engine over, but not necessarily actually fire up and run.

Has it not actually been spinning over at all as part of the original problem? If so.. yeah, sounds like the starters gone.

and they can just suddenly stop with no warning. One reason I carry a spare when I set off on one of my cross-Europe trips. Everything can be perfect but as you can't push or tow start an auto, with a dead starter you aren't going anywhere.

Thank you gents. I've decided I'm going to replace the starter regardless. At least that way it will lessen (hopefully) the chance of it failing any time soon. No, I don't have deep pockets to just throw money at the car but I would be happier knowing the part is new, and then if there are any problems it's under warranty. Do I know if doing that will fix the issue? No not 100% but I've tested everything else that is in the chain. I know the battery in the car is at least 4 years old. It is still holding charge but again for peace of mind it is worth changing as well.
I know the starter motor in the car is from 2001(I have a huge file full of receipts going back over 15 years. Strangely though no receipt for a new battery and the previous owner was methodical in keeping receipts.) so the way I am thinking is that it wouldn't hurt to replace it. Then I can recondition the original starter and keep it in my in-car emergency toolbox for the future if it's ever needed. I'm going to need a larger toolbox...........

GilbertD it was actually a comment that you made on another post back a while ago where you said exactly that. That has led to me thinking this would be the better way to go sorting this issue and being prepared for it in the future.

And yet, you have not answered the variously phrased question:
When you turn the key and "Crank" it, or jump the relay under the bonnet, does it go:
"RrrrRrrrRrrrRrrrRrrr" Or does it go "Click"
New starter will certainly not hurt, but if there is a wiring issue, bad relay, etc, you will keep on chucking parts at it with no result.
A dodgy starter can sometimes be diagnosed by having some one turn the key to the "Crank" position, whilst you are under the car ready to give the starter a good belt with a soft headed hammer. If it goes, then the brushes have had it, and it is time for a rebuild / replacement

Bolt wrote:

And yet, you have not answered the variously phrased question:
When you turn the key and "Crank" it, or jump the relay under the bonnet, does it go:
"RrrrRrrrRrrrRrrrRrrr" Or does it go "Click"
New starter will certainly not hurt, but if there is a wiring issue, bad relay, etc, you will keep on chucking parts at it with no result.
A dodgy starter can sometimes be diagnosed by having some one turn the key to the "Crank" position, whilst you are under the car ready to give the starter a good belt with a soft headed hammer. If it goes, then the brushes have had it, and it is time for a rebuild / replacement

Perhaps you should learn to read what is very clearly written, instead of responding the way you have. Here is my response way before your comment that addressed that very point.

"May 31, 2021, 5:03 PM #6

I jumped the starter fine yesterday but the car wouldn't start at all. All that was happening was a click. Today? The starter motor is doing nothing at all. I guess that answers my problem, or does it? I can't get under the car easily myself so, with that in mind (if that is the problem) then I'm goosed right now."
So thanks for nothing.

Craig-Robinson wrote:

Bolt wrote:

And yet, you have not answered the variously phrased question:
When you turn the key and "Crank" it, or jump the relay under the bonnet, does it go:
"RrrrRrrrRrrrRrrrRrrr" Or does it go "Click"
New starter will certainly not hurt, but if there is a wiring issue, bad relay, etc, you will keep on chucking parts at it with no result.
A dodgy starter can sometimes be diagnosed by having some one turn the key to the "Crank" position, whilst you are under the car ready to give the starter a good belt with a soft headed hammer. If it goes, then the brushes have had it, and it is time for a rebuild / replacement

Perhaps you should learn to read what is very clearly written, instead of responding the way you have. Here is my response way before your comment that addressed that very point.

"May 31, 2021, 5:03 PM #6

I jumped the starter fine yesterday but the car wouldn't start at all. All that was happening was a click. Today? The starter motor is doing nothing at all. I guess that answers my problem, or does it? I can't get under the car easily myself so, with that in mind (if that is the problem) then I'm goosed right now."
So thanks for nothing.

You should be able to give the starter a sufficient tap from above with a long implement of some kind - a broom handle may be enough for example. You should be able to see it from the drivers side of the car. Seems a bit odd that its gone from cranking but not starting, to not cranking though maybe repeated attempts to start have just finished it off, particually given its age from what you've posted. Maybe if it wasn't cranking over fast enough to actually start but that seems unlikely to me.

Potential for having the starter given a regular oil drowning is present if you have oil leaking from either the valley gasket or the head gasket on that side. Which I think is what killed my first starter motor solenoid though finding the trigger wire wasn't a good fit wasn't helping any. As you suggest pulling it off at this point and getting the old one rebuilt isn't the worst of ideas anyway. AAPoldham on ebay was the best price when I replaced mine (and was recommended on here previously) > https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302515291957 should be whats needed. But that clearly won't fix any issue with the supply cable or trigger wire to it either.

The other thing to check will be the sparks as mentioned further up in the thread, but until you get to the cause of the lack of cranking issue theres nothing much you can do on that score. Lack of any sparks likely to be indicating a faulty crank sensor if nothing else appears to be amiss. I don't think thats likely to log a fault code either as far as I know unless its been unplugged possibly rather than died.

A couple of notes on a new starter. When I did mine, I made up an earth lead which goes from a starter bolt to the battery earth point on the RH inner guard area thereby directly earthing the starter. Secondly, and to @Bolt 's point, I wiped a finger of RTV around the starter case joints and made up a simple plastic cover from a water bottle, cable tied to the starter to prevent any future oil contamination of the unit. If yours is oily, then replace the RH rocker cover gasket at the same time as you do the starter.

There are two connections on the solenoid, are you definitely touching the correct one, easy to pop the cable on the wrong one, which is the first one you will see.. seems strange to just go dead.

Craig-Robinson wrote:

Bolt wrote:

And yet, you have not answered the variously phrased question:
When you turn the key and "Crank" it, or jump the relay under the bonnet, does it go:
"RrrrRrrrRrrrRrrrRrrr" Or does it go "Click"
New starter will certainly not hurt, but if there is a wiring issue, bad relay, etc, you will keep on chucking parts at it with no result.
A dodgy starter can sometimes be diagnosed by having some one turn the key to the "Crank" position, whilst you are under the car ready to give the starter a good belt with a soft headed hammer. If it goes, then the brushes have had it, and it is time for a rebuild / replacement

Perhaps you should learn to read what is very clearly written, instead of responding the way you have. Here is my response way before your comment that addressed that very point.

"May 31, 2021, 5:03 PM #6

I jumped the starter fine yesterday but the car wouldn't start at all. All that was happening was a click. Today? The starter motor is doing nothing at all. I guess that answers my problem, or does it? I can't get under the car easily myself so, with that in mind (if that is the problem) then I'm goosed right now."
So thanks for nothing.

So, before you jump on folks who are trying to help you sort your problem.........
I did indeed read your post carefully. Twice. And this statement is what I was questioning:

"Battery checked and is at +12.45v. Checked relay & fuses. Relay is clicking. Jumped relay pins for starter motor and it works as should."

That says starter MOTOR worked as it should.
I was merely trying to get a clarification on what was happening, so I could run through the possibilities.
You threw Gilbert for a loop as well, as he went to Spark as an issue, thus he also thought it was spinning.
I note you did not ream him for his erroneous suggestion????
Best of luck, and remember, this is a friendly pub format forum.
Cut us some slack.
Good luck.
Tom