I would like to ask a further question regarding the handbrake - when I get the rear of the vehicle lifted off the ground, with the ignition off, will the rear wheels turn without causing the front wheels to turn.

Obviously, I don't want to be under the vehicle with the rear on axle stands, turning the rear diff, and the vehicle suddenly moves forwards or backwards.

With the ignition off is the centre diff freewheeling, or do I have to follow the instructions listed in RAVE to disconnect the centre diff as per towing or brake testing ?

I only have two axle stands and I don't want, under any circumstances, to keep the front of the vehicle lifted on the jack only.

Pierre3.

As long as both rear wheels are off the ground when you turn one wheel the other will turn in the opposite direction through the diff. Any movement will only go through to the front wheels if the propshaft it turned, which it won't unless you have only one wheel off the ground. The centre diff can't freewheel, it has a viscous coupling inside it joining front a rear drive. If you put it in transfer case neutral then you will be able to turn the rear propshaft without it turning the fronts but then there will be nothing to stop the front from rolling.

Why do you need to lift the rear wheels off the ground anyway?

From your question on the other thread, I've been under mine today. The adjuster on the handbrake cable couldn't be easier to access. It is about level with the rear of the transfer case, there's nothing in the way to stop you getting at it.

If you lift one side (left/right instead of rear/front), you can rotate the rear wheel and the front one should rotate with it. Block the wheels on the side you don't lift with 2"x4" or something like that.

th.

Hi guys, thanks for the advice, as usual.

Thorst, I did wonder if that would happen, and answers one question.

Richard, I did read through RAVE and I gather that tightening the handbrake is straightforward, but I was only wondering about turning the handbrake drum, to see when the shoes start to bite, in the same way as I would have done when doing the handbrake on a normal car. Tightening up the shoes until the wheel stops turning, then back off the adjuster slightly so that the wheel turns freely again.

I am not sure that even with the suspension lifted up to maximum I could get under the car to work comfortably, so I was going to jack it up a bit to give myself more wriggle room !!

I know that I keep looking for information but another item has cropped up - I asked Rimmers for a price to send new propshaft guard bolts and propshaft to rear diff nuts and bolts and they said that there isn't a propshaft guard on the 2001 P38, and there are only three nuts and bolts on the propshaft/rear diff UJ. But RAVE appears to show four, and from what I remember of Ford RS 2000's there were always four bolts connecting the propshaft to the diff. Surely Rimmers have this wrong ?

Pierre3.

"turning the handbrake drum, to see when the shoes start to bite, in the same way as I would have done when doing the handbrake on a normal car. Tightening up the shoes until the wheel stops turning, then back off the adjuster slightly so that the wheel turns freely again."

Lift one side
or
one rear wheel and either transmission or transfer box in neutral

th.

So, I got under the car this afternoon, and it's just as well that I did !! I have looked at RAVE for instructions, and I saw a video by a guy doing a handbrake shoes replacement, and for whatever reason I thought that the handbrake drum was beside the rear diff, but it turns out that it is at the back of the gearbox. Who would have thought !!!!!!

I tightened up the handbrake until I couldn't turn the brake drum, even though there was only a small amount of free play on the propshaft. I was able to tighten the drum so that I couldn't move it and then backed it of just enough for the drum to turn.

I am just hoping that the shoes are good as I see that there is an oil leak at the joint on the back of the transfer box, or the gearbox, whichever is the one right beside the handbrake drum. There is oil on the drum but hopefully it has not got into the drum itself.

Pierre3.

There will be backlash in the transfer case chain and in the rear diff, so you will be able to rotate the drum enough to see if it is binding or not. You don't back it off just enough to let it turn (unless you like the smell of burning brake linings and a red hot glow from under the car), you follow RAVE. Tighten it to the specified torque and then back it off 1.5 turns. If you have free play in the lever, then adjust the cable to take the slack out of that.

A proper P38 has 4 bolts on the propshaft but I believe the diesel only has 3 and a rubber donut thing. You're the one that is under it, I don't think I've ever been under a diesel! The separate picture in the left corner of this pic https://new.lrcat.com/#!/1234/87921/88144/6934/88159.bolts are M12 x 65 according to that.

Richard, I will recheck the free play again this weekend. I think that I backed it off 1 complete turn so I probably need to do it again. The biggest problem I have is trying to adjust the cable under the car. I can, as mentioned earlier, see and access it easily, but I can't get two spanners up to the adjuster nuts to adjust them.

Firstly, they are very tight, probably due to not being adjusted for a long time; secondly, I can't move the rubber boot that covers the smaller nut; thirdly, need angled spanners to get into the space where the cable goes through the floor; and lastly, I am only guessing that one nut is 17mm and the large one right under the floor is 20mm but I am not sure.

I am thinking that the solution must be to take out the window switch pack and the gear stick panel to get at the bottom of te handbrake and disconnect everything from there.

Pierre3.

I got under the vehicle again today, to redo the handbrake adjustment, and it turned out to be a couple of hours of a job, 5 in total !!

I appreciate Richards advice that it is easy to get at everything, and to some extent I agree, but this is not a job for the faint-hearted if you haven't been under the transmission tunnel inside panels. Initially, I made the mistake of tightening the shoes in the drum first, and then checked the free play on the handbrake lever. This is the wrong way around - it needs to be done by releasing the brake shoes right off, and then adjusting the two nuts at the top end of the handbrake cable.

Unfortunately, although Richard rightly says that the adjuster nuts are easily accessible, what isn't mentioned is the the nuts sit in an indentation in the transmission floor, and this prevents one getting two spanners, a 20mm and a 16mm, onto the nuts to turn them enough to take up any slack. And this also assumes that the nuts will turn in opposing directions and are not stuck due to corrosion and rust and weather. Mine were jammed tight.

So therefore one has to take the cable off the handbrake lever, and drop it down under the vehicle, spray it liberally with releasing oil, and then gradually free it up, until it will adjust freely backwards and forwards. Sounds simple ? Well, no so simple - to release the cable you have to take out the electric window switch pack [straight forward], and pull off the pin holding the cable to the lever. Then, in my case I realised that there was no way to push the locating pin back through the lever and head of the cable. This is where the work starts - you have no option but to remove the whole centre console, including the head of the gearshift, the heating controls panel, and both tunnel side panels.

Then you need to pull the pin that keeps the lever connected to to the cable quadrant, so that eventually you have the lever free to lift upwards vertically, to allow you to lift the whole centre console up and out. This finally gives you access to the lower cable locating pin, which you can now pull out, allowing the cable to be pulled through the floor from underneath the vehicle.

Obviously, it is important to make a note of all the screws, nuts [under the armrest storage box, look carefully and pull up the flat base in the box, it comes out] which hold the back of the console, and bolts, and keep a note of the plugs that fit into all the various connections - heater control plugs, window pack plug, handbrake lever switch plug, gearshift mode plug, etc.

Finally, if requiring less travel on the handbrake lever, open up the adjuster nuts on the cable and push it back through the floor. It will be a bit of a fight to reconnect it but a vice grips on the cable, to lever the head of the cable upwards, is useful in getting the pin back into the lower quadrant. Then, with the handbrake off, get back under the vehicle and do the brake shoe adjustment again, as per RAVE.

All that's left to do is replace all the centre console parts, remembering to reconnect all the plugs, and put the screws back in their correct places.

And all done in under five hours - just.

Pierre3.

Pierre, thanks for the detailed description of how you did it. I may (or may not) need to do the same one day.

Harv, if your cable has corrosion on the threads, under the floor and right under the handbrake lever, then you will have to disassemble everything on the transmission tunnel. There is no way that you can get the leverage required under the car because you can't get the required open-ended spanners into the indentation to loosen then. Stripping the handbrake is the only way.

By the way, what is this connector, shown in Richards picture ?

Pierre3.

Have you never heard of crows foot sockets, like this https://www.amazon.co.uk/Siegen-S0845-Drive-Flare-Spanner/dp/B003OX85ES/ref=asc_df_B003OX85ES/? A pair of those would get in there no problem, although you would need two ratchets......

The connector is the supply and feedback for the transfer box range change motor, which is on the back of the transfer box alongside the transmission brake drum..

Hi Richard, I have seen crows foot spanners but I just don't think that you could get the leverage on what is more or less a seized connection. It took me about 45 minutes to release the thread, by the age-old backwards and forwards working of the two nuts, after I had disconnected it from the handbrake lever and pulled it down under the car. I could only move the 16mm nut about two or three threads at a time because of the corrosion, and I did begin to think that it might be easier to just fit a new cable !

True to form, a new LR handbrake cable is €144 plus shipping, although there are aftermarket ones cheaper. I'm just not sure that I would buy an aftermarket when you consider how much leverage you can put on a handbrake.

Thanks for the description of the electrical plug shown in the picture. I noticed that mine is only just holding on as the plastic clip, that holds it, is broken on one side. I may have to consider replacing it, but with what I am not sure.

Pierre3.

Pierre3 wrote:

Thanks for the description of the electrical plug shown in the picture. I noticed that mine is only just holding on as the plastic clip, that holds it, is broken on one side. I may have to consider replacing it, but with what I am not sure.

Tie wraps are the usual solution to most broken clips.....

Pierre, when I did mine I took one look at the old cable and replaced it with a new Britpart one costing £18. It has been absolutely fine.
brake cable
Saves pissing about on your back under the car.

As usual, thanks for everyone's contributions. It is very useful as always.

Richard, I was thinking that, indeed, because it does look as if the plastic clip part has just gone brittle. So, I just need until the weather improves so that I can get back under the vehicle.

Dave3d, I kind of made the comment based on two pictures that I saw on the Rimmer Bros site. The aftermarket cable just looks a bit "basic" compared to the LR one, but it is often difficult to judge from online images. The other issue that I had was if I decided to fit a new cable then I would have to strip down the handbrake drum, to attach the brake shoes connector. I know that, when you say it quickly, it appears to be simple but I have a feeling that it would be a major battle trying to disconnect the propshaft, to get the drum off.

If the car fails the annual test again [it is on a re-test for handbrake poor operation], then I will strip the handbrake drum and fir new shoes as I have a vague suspicion that some gearbox oil may have got into the drum from a slight leak on the back of the transfer box. But hopefully not.

Pierre3.

If you've adjusted it up properly, even if the drum is full of ATF, it'll still hold the car. As long as they test it properly and do both wheels at the same time.....

Richard, this is exactly my worry, that the goons won't know how to do the test correctly, and without trying to haul the handbrake out the roof of the car. I did everything by the manual, and the handbrake is firmly applied at the second click of the lever.

I wondered whether the drum might need a few applications of the brake to clear any oil that might be on the shoes but I suppose that there is already enough leverage on the drum without having to do that.

Anyway, I can only wait to go to the test, next week, and see what happens then.

Pierre3.

If it was me I’d probably try a bit of judicious application of the park brake while driving to try to “burn off” the residual oil. If you try this be very careful as you could easily cause more harm than good.

I would normally do that on any other automatic car on the way to MoT test to clean up the brake linings and drum as they tend to not get used on an auto, people just put it in Park. Particularly the ones used on a lot of German cars which have discs on the back but the parking brake is a small drum in the centre of the disc.

However, I wouldn't do it on a P38 as the parking brake is usually too good. If it's working well it should be possible to lock the rear wheels.