Clive603 wrote:

So far as mass production factory "off the machine" quality is concerned a visit to the BMW motorcycle factory in Berlin a couple or three years before the wall came down was illuminating. In a not particularly good way. In particular a pile of imperfect K series heads on the floor awaiting re-work all looked well beyond saving!

Yeh, they mixed up the good and bad piles of heads so good heads were melted down and production vehicles got the dodgy heads thus explaining K series hg problems lol.

I've sent an email off to the US contact email address for Airtex water pumps to see what they think of Island's practice and the condition of the pump.

I'm not going to use a sealant on the pump as that's specifically stated as something that WILL void the warranty on it (it came with a little booklet detailing the 3 year warranty).

I'm confused about the BMW factory with K series heads though. Why would a BMW motorcycle factory have had Rover car engine heads in the late 80's?

Wouldn't that have been a LONG time before BMW had anything to do with Rover?

Anyone able to tell me which idler pulley goes where?

Had trouble getting the fan off (as I expected) and ended up taking off the alternator, AC pump, PS pump and idler pulleys for access.

I can't remember which idler goes where though!

There's a small one and a larger one - any suggestions?

LRCat is your friend http://new.lrcat.com/#!/1234/90127/90555/7166/90660. Naturally i went out with torch and ruler and tried to measure them first. Darn near impossible in the dark.

Pulley on the right PQR101150 is 80 mm diameter, pulley on the left PQR500060 is 70 mm diameter. Officially upper and lower pulleys respectively but I defy anyone to see the difference in height when installed in the car.

Going off topic Re K series engines.
Lpgc is getting the Leyland K series engine mixed up with the BMW motorcycle K series. BMW motorcycle K is a DOHC fuel injected water cooled 3 (K75) or 4 (K100) pot laid on its side. Crank to right, head to left.

Clive

RutlandRover wrote:

Anyone able to tell me which idler pulley goes where?

Had trouble getting the fan off (as I expected) and ended up taking off the alternator, AC pump, PS pump and idler pulleys for access.

I’m confused, without them on how the hell do you hold it, it’s literally one of the first things to be undone with the belt on !

I couldn't undo it with the belt on.

I tried just hitting it with a hammer while the belt was on but that did nothing.

Then I bolted a piece of steel to the pulley and used a viscous fan spanner. Both of these had extensions on the end for more leverage. I then had a helper and the two of us pushed in opposite directions. The viscous fan spanner cut through the nut without undoing it.

I had two fan spanners to double up but I couldn't fit them in with the steel bolted to the front of the pulley.

So then I took off the alternator, AC pump, PS pump and the pump bracket. With these off I could fit a longer bolt in the back of the pulley, slide a ratchet extension in from the top that was braced against the alternator bracket and spin the pulley so the bolt rested against that.

I could then fit my doubled up spanner on the nut to spread the load and really whack it with the hammer.

Took several thumps but it eventually went.

The pulley on the PS pump bracket had to come off to allow the bracket to come off.

The other pulley had to come off when I was removing the water pump. It was covering one of the bolts and I couldn't get a socket on it.

I guess it's ok to put a little anti-sieze on the fan thread? It shouldn't come loose as it's designed to be tightened as the fan runs.

Put a bit of coppa-slip on mine when I did the front crankshaft oil seal 3 or 4 years back. Still quite tight enough thank you when I came to change the water pump this year. So used it again.

An alternative if you want to seal the thread but aren't quite sure about anti seize is to use a low strength Loctite which not only seals against corrosion but also prevents galling and similar metallic joining issues. 222 Screwlock adds about 10 ft lb breakaway to a 10 mm thread which isn't going to add up to too much on the fan so long as you don't heave it up. Being in Rikki-Tikki-Tava mode I looked up the others for completeness 243 Nutlock will add about 20 ft lb to a 10 mm thread and 270 Studlock about 30 ft lb. Measuring this stuff gets complicated. Book figures are for around 4 ft/lb tightening torque. Just enough to properly engage the threads on the loaded side. Lean on it and strength is rather higher but how much greater gets complicated. Hafta say that book strength of screw lock is greater than I thought. Probably 'cos I've only used it on itty-bitty things.

Bearing fit 641 adds 940 psi to the retention force on a bearing which isn't too shabby. High strength retainer 638 data sheet says 3,625 psi retention force if properly applied. Translation "Not coming out. So there.". 638 is bit harder to use than the other breeds as it has good gap filling properties and strength varies with clearance. Used it occasionally when stuck with fairly loose slip fits instead of drive or light shrink ones. Found that it holds well, real well. Put the part in wrong and its probably time to break out the blow lamp.

Clive

I would only use grease, as you’ve said, it tightens on start up, I only ever hand thread them on and then leave well alone.

I put it back on dry in the end. I looked at the threads and there was no evidence of corrosion or anything binding it up - it was just bloody tight.

Trying to undo it using the tension of the belt just resulted in turning the engine over. The belt didn't seem to be slipping.

Would that suggest that the engine lacks compression to allow it to crank over before the fan nut gave way?

RutlandRover wrote:

Then I bolted a piece of steel to the pulley and used a viscous fan spanner. Both of these had extensions on the end for more leverage. I then had a helper and the two of us pushed in opposite directions. The viscous fan spanner cut through the nut without undoing it.

This how the set up looked, you can imaging how much force/torque this was applying with two grown men pushing on levers this long!

Engine compression doesn't have much bearing on whether or not you can shock the nut loose. It's the sharpness of the impulse that matters. If you are holding by a serpentine or similar friction belt drive the stretchiness of the belt ultimately takes the edge off the shock setting a limit to the tightness of the nut or bolt that can be removed. The engine doesn't have time to turn during the impulse but the belt does have time to stretch. Doesn't help that whacking a spanner is a very inefficient way of applying a sharp shock. The shaft bends first then applies the wack to the hex.

I usually strangle a 5 lb club (or 10 lb sledge if its really serious) hammer. More of a punch through than a swing. Heavy head means there is still plenty of energy left in the impulse when the elasticity of the shaft is taken up. The impulse is on the stopping end of the hit not the start. Unfortunately that gives time for the belt stretchiness to get in on the act. Proper impact wrenches and drivers put the impulse on the beginning which is much more effective. The impulse is also very fast which is why you can hand hold against 100 fl lb or more when using an impact gun.

The better variety of battery driven impact screwdrivers include a chart as to how long you have to keep it rattling away to reach a given torque setting. Checked my Makita ones against a torque wrench (yup, definitely Mr Anal here) and found the chart surprisingly accurate. Undoing usually took a couple or three seconds more than doing up. Both the drill / driver and impact driver in my 18 V Makita set will casually snap a 5 mm Screwfix wood screw if you get ambitious. But the drill / driver has a darn good try at taking my hand off at the wrist before the screw snaps under pure torque whilst the impact driver literally just sits there and goes rattle-rattle "snap".

Its all in the speed and energy. Dinging away with a piddly little 2 lb engineers ball pin rarely gets you anywhere serious, although the long, fast swing can be a hazard to nearby parts if your aim is off, and a dead blow is largely a waste of time. Dead blows are for pushing things around.

Clive

I've only ever had one that didn't come off with a clout from a club hammer on the pump wrench but that came free easily enough with the bar holding it from turning. When putting them back, I just leave everything dry and spin it on until it reaches the end of the thread and stops. You can turn the engine over with the fan although I don't think you could crank it over fast enough to start the engine WW1 Sopwith Camel style.

Meant to say this earlier - Nice when the water pump isn't driven by the cam belt as on some more modern engines. Makes changing them on some cars a lot more work than iy should be, like the pump I changed on a Zafira. BMW V12 water pumps I've changed have protrusions that are almost an interference fit in the block that might have made them very difficult to extract if it wasn't for the pump having purpose machined tapped holes around it's perimeter to allow screwing bolts in to push against the block, almost self extracting..