Maybe but I cannot keep chucking money at it. There are no experts around here. The useless unreliable thing is stuck in Prompy and is going to cost yet more money to get the thing out of there. Then what? Bring it back home? With no one able to find the problem it is of no use to me. It has been off the road for 5 weeks. I have missed going to events. Haven't played darts for weeks because I cannot get home afterwards as there are no buses that run late. Sorry but I am very depressed about it all at the moment and not a very happy bunny to be around.

Gilbert, do you happen to know if the fuel pump is a Range Rover or BMW part? After what you said it seems more likely that Mazz1 will be able to a BMW specialist than a competent Range Rover one.

I think someone mentioned that while it is the same engine, and possibly fuel pump, the electronics are different so it can talk to the BeCM. Whether they live in the top bit that has to be calibrated or not I have no idea.

The FIP doesn't actually talk to the BECM, but to the Engine ECU - it's the bit that somehow checks that the pump is correct for the vehicle, and if it isn't then it won't even start.

So the question remains: Would a BMW tech recognise the FIP on a diesel P38?
Mazz1 - why don't you have a look for reputable BMW people in your area. I'm sure most people with a BMW that's out of warranty will be able to recommend somewhere are their stealerships are fiercely priced for maintenance!

When I get a minute I'll ask this guy http://www.simonservices.co.uk/. Or you (or someone else here) might want to speak to him first or instead of me. Seems a decent bloke. I've done quite a bit of LPG work for him and I've fixed a few petrol issues too... But I think he knows a lot about the diesels.

Failing that, what would prevent getting another pump from a scrapyard and fitting it on? I know it'll need timing but is fitting it and timing a big job? Any other complications such as are they coded?

For information, it is a Bosch VP37 fuel injection pump and it is a BMW M51 engine.

Variations of the pump have been used on many engines in both 6 cylinder and 4 cylinder configurations, but it is exactly the same pump as used in BMW E34 and 525 E39 models and also old Omega and Vauxhall diesels from the late '90's.The only thing different is the electronic top half in the p38 version so it can speak to the BECM. It speaks a non standard code compared to other makes. It is possible to use an old BMW pump for example and just swap the tops over.

Fitting and timing the FIP needs special tools but it would be a relatively easy job for an experienced mechanic who has done it before. Problem is finding an "old school" guy who knows what he is doing.

I'm still not even sure - without anyone who has a clue having had a look at it - if it even NEEDS a replacement pump.

We don't know what the timing/modulation values are on the original one as yet, as Powerdrive don't seem to know what they are on a out with it, so jumping to replacing the pump at the moment seems like a bit of a leap?

I'm hoping my lump is serviceable by the time I'm due to go to Bournemouth, but even if it isn't, I'll take my Nanocom and find a way to get over there to look at it in person.

Well Marty. I don't know what to do. I have asked them for info on all they have done, what diagnostic machine they have used and what has been replaced and fault codes found, as suggested earlier. That have sort of refused to do that saying that "given the complexity and technical nature " of what I was asking them for, they want me to go down here to discuss it. Now. Their place is in the middle of and industrial estate nowhere near public transport. How in heavens name do they expect me to get there? It has been a right shit day. Went to the doc to get him to fill in and sign a medical form so I can keep my D1 entitlement when I have to renew my license at 70, so I can continue to drive the 16 seat mini buses. £120 for 40 mins work!!!!!! Wish I got paid that for 40 mins work!

I'm sure you've already done this but I'd simply tell them you can't. It's a fairly straightforward reason you have for not going!

It's only complex if they make it so. If they wanted to, they can make it simple and non-technical.

All they have to do is state what they did and why.

I can't think of reason they can't or won't - besides trying to hide their screw ups and/or incompetence. Perhaps they're hoping that if you go to them in person you're more likely to accept the story they give you and pay up.

I think they realise that if they write it down and send it to you you'll have the opportunity to share it more knowledgeable people.

I think you might be in for a rough ride sorting this with them :(

Mmmm looks like it. They said it was info they would have put in the invoice which I doubt. I do not think they would put things like fault codes or what diagnostic machine they used, which was some of the things I asked for. Have to say I feel a bit uncomfortable about going down to them and how they are going to describe these " complex and technical issues"

Rutland is right. I think they're probably scared to put anything on paper because it could end up in small claims court.
Mazz, you don't sound like the sort of person who will get intimidated but that's probably what they're hoping. Do you have any large relatives?

I have. 6' 5" son!!!!! Thank you for your impression of me. Normally I can hold my own but at the moment I am not feeling quite so strong. I feel quite emotionally drained by all that has been going on with this damn car over the last 5 weeks. I cannot see any light at the end of the long tunnel and to be honest, I do not think I can afford to have a new/ reconditioned pump fitted like they are suggesting. They have apparently sourced a refurbished one with ,I think they said, a new actuator on it!! The problem with the place is as I have said, not easily accessible other than by private transport and they are only open Mon to Fri 8-5. IF I go down there I will have to take a day off for which I would not get paid as I am bank staff. My son works totally in the opposite direction and in his job role cannot just take days off willy nilly. Stuck between a pile of rocks and a hard place!!!!

Agreed with Morat and Rutland in that it seems they're reluctant to describe what they've done and why in detail on paper because they know paper would then give you means to have their thought process / diagnostics procedures / conclusions scrutinised by others who might know better what they're doing... such paper could also be damning if it ever came to court. If they were sure they'd done all the right things and that what they'd done would hold up to scrutiny they should have no problems with giving you the info you've asked for on paper and might even hope that you do put it out for scrutiny... It's not their call to say they want to discuss it rather than write it down because you might not understand what was written - tell them the truth about why you want it in writing and then if they're being honest and are confident they've done all the right things they should be happy to. The world seems full of experts in bs and half measures, professional in some disciplines seems to mean very little.

If they can put it on the final invoice then it's not too complicated to put on an estimate/proforma.

The words are the same regardless of which piece of paper they write them on. The only difference between an estimate and a final invoice is that you've already paid at the point you receive the final invoice.

Maybe they would be behaving differently if I was male. Also they know, from previous dealings with them, that I do not have male back up. They also know that getting to them is not easy as I have said before. Whatever happens they are going to bump up the already silly money bill. At the end of my tether with it.

I'd say that's a good summary.
The key question in all of this is whether your fuel pump is genuinely knackered or whether it is simply out of adjustment and needs someone who knows what they are doing (with the correct diagnostics) to set it back to working condition. I can't judge that. I'm sure people on here can, but it's probably going to take a visit from one of us, or from a reliable mechanic to decide whether Powerdrive are correct in their diagnosis.

So, assuming Powerdrive are talking shit (as seems likely):
You need to get your son to come with you next time you visit, and you do need to visit in person.

1. Phone Citizen's Advice, be sure of your rights.
2. Tell PD to stop working on the car
3. Tell them to produce a statement of costs and summary of work to date (it sounds like they won't do it, but you can't pay up until you've got a detailed invoice, right?)
4. Find a BMW specialist that is prepared to work on an M51 diesel engine in a P38 Range Rover. This shouldn't be too hard. You could try phone these guys http://www.apmmotors.co.uk/ they seem to have decent reviews (the only bad one is for "not answering the phone" which is a good sign of a busy shop!) PD have some terrible reviews!
5. Recover your property and have it taken to the BMW specialist. Try getting a quote from Shipley, it can be surprisingly cheap.
6. Laugh heartily at the invoice from "Powerdrive". Tell them you will only pay for work that was authorised and offer to cover their labour costs for the work that was relevant. Negotiate.

I think that when you look at the potential costs involved in getting this car back if you simply cave in and pay up then a day off work and a taxi ride (for you and your son) would be a good investment.

My last post I said I'd talk to Simon at Simons Services. Instead I've just come off the phone to another (ex) Landrover specialist that I've done a lot of work for in the past. Chris used to run Elland Landrovers in Halifax and before that worked at a Landrover dealership (said for every diesel they sold they'd sell about 30 petrol V8 P38s). Before that he worked for Scania and was involved in developing diesel / LPG blend systems. He's mostly involved with landscape gardening now but still does a bit with Rangerovers and has built plenty RV8s in his time. As a great coincidence he was just approaching his mate's premises while I was on the phone and I got chance to speak to his mate too, his mate is a BMW tech bloke who's very familiar with the pumps.

Chris said before the pump is messed with the engine needs to be at TDC on either number 1 or number 6 (couldn't remember) and then a pin is inserted at the side of the pump to prevent it turning. He didn't buy electronics problems other than something that might be reported due to pump timing being out. He said it's the same pump on Freelanders, Omegas and some BMWs but the electronics are different. Said that if it was running OK before when it had the leak but isn't running OK now it's obviously due to some problem the garage has caused...

His mate also didn't buy electronics problems unless the top of the pump has been changed along with the electronics which are coded. He described the same pin procedure and reckoned a lot of garages forget about timing due to being so familiar these days with common rail setups where timing doesn't matter. This guy has rebuilt a lot of these pumps and reckons a common problem when the top of the pump has been off to replace seals is that they don't seal properly when refitted due to corrosion, which can lead to air being sucked into the system unless the innards are flattened off before refitting the top of the pump. He also said that if it was running OK before when it had the leak but isn't running OK now it's obviously due to some problem the garage has caused...

Since it starts fine but engine response is poor, the 'air getting into the system' scenario Chris's mate described seems likely to me.

Agreed with Morat.

Hi. Lpgc. Does TDC mean top dead centre? The diesel leak was "fixed" last Nov. The starting and mpg was not as good as it had been before the leak was fixed by a few miles. Knowing what I know now, I feel that this power issue might have been there since the leak was fixed, but has only recently shown itself. A passenger I had in it said it sounded like it was "pinking" . I possibly might agree. There was a slightly different sound when speeding up. PD say it now starts like new. Well starting had never been an issue pre leak.

Have had an email from Powerdrive. It looks like they might be sending the info I asked for.