Thanks Chris - yep, that's precisely the socket I broke last night - 16mm Halfords plug socket. I couldn't use my 3/4 bar as I don't have a 3/4 to 1/2 adaptor. I have one that goes the other way round... I'll fish out the 3/4 bar when the new sockets arrive.

Not sure I'm familiar with grip tight sockets - will have a look at that.

We use heat on mercury engines all the time and some are chev V8 based !! Threadloock used will need heat or ain't happening as far as removal goes ----- bolt heads are 5/8 or 16mm Done so imperial or metric can be used

Well, I don't know about you guys, but I'm heaving a sigh of relief! We have movement!

With the knowledge that I wouldn't necessarily kill anything by tackling the bolts out of sequence, I went for the ones that my current sockets allow access to - the three middle ones inside the rocker cover; and the middle of the lower line. I just let the impact gun rattle away - loosen, tighten, loosen, tighten etc. They still weren't moving with the gun, but it was doing something, and generating a bit of heat. Then I switched the impact socket onto the long bar and tube handle and I got 4 of them to shift. I've nipped them back up again for now, but they'll come off Ok.

I now need to wait for the slimmer socket to arrive to get access to the ones that are more obstructed by the head casting.

Full of confidence (well, not really) I went to the RHS, removed the liner, and manifold heat shield and loosened the exhaust bolts. Once I knew there were no demons hiding there, I took the same approach with one of the head bolts - on/off/on/off with the gun, then crack it off with the long bar. Got one to just start turning.

I do wonder if something's non-standard here though. It's a 16mm impact socket I'm using, and it's taking a hell of a beating, but it feels just a little too loose for comfort - given the torque involved.

But anyway, I think the long and short of this is that the current dramatic episode is over. I know they will shift, and have worked out a 'process' that will take them off. After all this, I'll defnitely be taking the heads to the machine shop though for a 'once over'

Thanks very much for the info and the moral support!

I nearly suggested a 16mm or 5/8th plug socket because they're deep and readily available, but I didn't think one would handle that much torque.

Good news then. I suspect someone has used aftermarket stretch bolts that are too hard and managed to do them up as per the instructions so they are way too tight. First time I went to buy stretch bolts, I was asked if I wanted decent ones or cheap ones. when I asked the difference I was told the cheap ones might stretch, might not or might break so I went for genuine LR ones. Since then I've always used the studs, expensive but they work and you know how much pressure they are putting on.

Hey, I’m back! Strap yourselves in, it’s been a hell of a day....!

It’s been a day when I could have used lots and lots of sweary words , but I’ll spare you that in the interests of brevity.

Started off trying to get the intermediate steering shaft off. I referred very carefully to the WSM – don’t hit anything with a hammer, and push the shaft towards the bulkhead once all the bolts are undone. Ha ha ha ha ha!

I couldn’t figure out what I was doing wrong, but the XXXX thing just wouldn’t shift. Eventually, after just a few gentle taps with a hammer ... I realised that the long set of splines, at the steering box UJ just wasn’t moving enough to give me clearance. So, out came Mr Grinder...!

To be fair to myself, even on the ground, those splines would go no further into the UJ, so cutting it out was the only option. I’m assuming 20 yrs of wear have created a little ridge inside the UJ.

So, manifold out, no great drama, except that the nuts between the manifold and exhaust were a 13mm, a 14mm and a 15mm. How...... entertaining!

Right. Next. Spark plugs. How hard can that be? (Bearing in mind my last 20 years of experience has been on a Defender 300Tdi diesel). On every single plug I had to use a 450mm ½” breaker bar. And, unfortunately, this picture tells its own story (apart from being upside down!).

I did try and use a ‘reverse spiral easy out’ on the broken plug, once I’d dug out all its internals – but to be honest I gave up on that, as I know the heads are coming off anyway, and given how tight all the plugs were in, I thought I was likely to just do more damage.

For those of you more used to spark plugs....

The end of the electrode on the old plugs looks a lot smaller than the new one alongside – have they just eroded over time? Other than that they seem OK to me – pretty consistent, and not fouled.

A set of ‘Champion’ plugs came with the car. Much bigger hex than the old ones - as you can see in the pics. Are these ‘OK’ or should I get something different? Given what’s to follow, the cost of a set of plugs isn’t going to make a lot of difference.....

So, because I’m still waiting for the UK, and the US posties to bring me my new sockets, I couldn’t go any further with the heads, and moved on to the water pump. (I’ll post a separate thread about my new water pump).

The “old” one looks is pretty good nick, I have to say, but I still 100% accept the logic of having a look while I’m here. Though I could probably just clean up the faces and stick this back on.

However (insert lots of sweary words) as soon as I cracked off the first few water pump bolts, I noticed a leak between the front/timing cover and the block. I dived underneath with a torch, just to check that the leak wasn’t simply flowing down that way, but no. The gasket between the timing cover and block is gone. Green line shows the leak – in fact in the orginal uncompressed picture, you can actually see the coolant stream just to the left of the green line.

So, now, having started all of this to try and chase one water leak at the back of the valley gasket, I’m into a tricky head removal, and taking the sump and front cover off.......

Indeed, to get my impact gun onto the crankshaft nut, the radiator will have to come off! At least it’s already empty...

This is where I left it this eve.

I’ve sort of been here before, recently, with the Tdi. So it’s not excessively scary, but I was surprised to see that there were no bolts inside the crankshaft pulley/damper.

I thought there would be some bolts in there, allowing me to attach a tool to lock the pulley while torqueing off the crankshaft nut? (Edit: there are two threaded holes - that's just a rubbish photo)

So, now I’m going to be effectively stripping the engine down to just a short block. It’s certainly giving me good value in the ‘hours in the garage:initial purchase price’ ratio.

If I keep going at this rate, I’ll have the engine out and on the bench by the end of next week.

Having said all of that, it’s probably obvious that I’m not really that bothered. In a perverse way I realise that I’m having to catch up on many, many years of poor or minimal maintenance, and once I’ve done all of this (plus the stuff I’ve already spent many hours on) then I’ll have a car that I’ll be much more confident of mechanically. All the electrickery will be another matter. (but I did unbolt the fusebox today to have a peek underneath, and that at least looks split new.)

And that's about it for now. I might take a day off tomorrow, or pull the radiator out. (FXck! I've only literally just realised that it's not 'just' the radiator that will have to come out on this car, but the oil coolers and AC condenser.... aaargh.)

Please feel free to comment on any of the stuff above – spark plug questions etc.

In addition as I’ll be removing the front cover, what do I do at the same time? Oil pump rotors? Or, given the state of the water pump, and the engine’s 75k miles, are they likely to be pretty good, and I should leave them untouched? Anything else? Radiator looks more or less split new from the inside, and I already have a new serpentine belt and a couple of new jockey pulleys.

1 Spark plugs are completely worn out and it looks to me like it was running a tad rich...
2 Definitely do the water pump while you're there, its an easy job and well worth doing just for peace of mind especially if that unit is original..
3 While the front cover is off it would certainly be a good idea to replace the timing chain and sprockets around £30 and well worth doing
4 NGK plugs are the best ones to use in the P38 and be weary with the large hex some Thor head castings don't allow room for the bigger nut on the spark plugs and as such you can't get the socket on to them NGK PFR6N-11 are best for the thor in my opinion
5 The oil pump rotors should be fine.

The original plugs you took out are platinum, which accounts for the difference in the electrode. At least RC11PYPB seems to be platinum, your new ones are standard copper I think. The disadvantage with them lasting longer is they can be more difficult to get to move when you do need them, I always use a bit of copperslip on plugs. Its one of the few jobs I find wd40 can be useful when removing them, though not so much on the Rover v8 (other engines where they go in vertically can quite effectively soak around the plug and let it run down the threads as soon as you get it to start moving then).

Most on here don't rate Champion plugs either, tending to go with NGK as said above.

Thanks guys - I thought I'd posted a further comment, but I must have missed the button.
Having googled a lot, I wondered the same thing about the old spark plugs. I also read somewhere that they had a 72,000 mile service interval - which could mean they are original on this car, and might help explain they were so difficult to shift.
I now have 8xNGK BCPR6ES on the way.

If I was to do the timing chain etc (If, because the engine has only done 75k) is there any merit at all in a different/upgraded camshaft? I know I'd need to change the followers and pushrods too. Turners have a mildly hotter version available. I don't particulary feel any need for this, just wondering given that I'll be 'there' anyway.

Also read something from Gilbertd about pulling one of the crankshaft bearing caps... but again, at 75k, is this even worth considering??

Agree with the above. The plugs you took out are either Iridium or Platinum tipped, the replacements are standard copper core. I ran Citroen DS's while they were dirt cheap and always used Champion plugs in a carb'd DS21 and they were fine. I then changed it for a DS21 EFi and found that if I ran around town for a while, the first time I gave it some welly out of town it would pop, bang, splutter and misfire like crazy until I'd ignored the noise and wound it up to the red line when after that it would clear and run fine until next time I drove in traffic. Mentioned this in my local friendly Citroen dealers (in the old days when main dealers were inhabited by mechanics rather than salesmen) and was asked what plugs I ran. They reckoned they all did it on Champions and told me to put NGK plugs in and that cured it completely. Not used anything else in anything since and never had any problem. In the P38, for GEMS it needs BPR6ES which have the larger hex and are copper core, for Thor, as said, you need PFR6N-11 which have the smaller hex. Even though I use the copper cored plugs and change them every 10,000 miles (LPG being harder on plugs than petrol), I always coat the threads with graphite grease when putting them in (and torque them to Mr NGK's recommendations not hang on the end of a breaker bar like some people seem to do).

The leak from the front cover probably wasn't there before you took the water pump off as some of the bolts go through both. Removing the pump allows the front cover to move out slightly so you will get a weep which goes away once you put the new water pump on and tighten the bolts.

Two things stop the sliding joint on the steering shaft from moving. One is the fact that it has been there a long time but a thin cold chisel slid up the slot will move that. As you tap the chisel upwards it not only opens the gap so allowing the splines to move easier, you are also tapping the UJ up the splines. The other thing that stops it moving is having the wheels on the ground and the steering lock on, which it will be unless you have the keys in the ignition and turned, as there is tension in the shaft so it doesn't want to slide......

Be wary of the replacement steering shaft and go for OE. All now seem to be steel with a hex rather than splined sliding joint but there are two things that you need to be aware of. Some have the hole for the bolt on the steering box UJ in the wrong place (too close to the centreline) so the groove in the input shaft that the bolt should run in isn't deep enough and the bolt won't go in. The second problem is that on some the UJ's have been pressed in and the ends peened over to hold the bearing caps in place. This isn't done enough so the caps can move outwards and give slack in the UJ. The tiniest bit of movement in the UJ becomes an awful lot of slack at the steering wheel.

Thanks very much - appreciate that, particulary the info about the steering shaft. I hadn't really started looking at that yet. I think it was just age making things difficult. The car is off the ground, with no wheels on; and the ignition key was turned to take the steering lock off, so there was absolutely no tension at all in the shaft. I could get the splines to go 'out'; I just couldn't get them to go 'in' and therefore allow enough clearance to pull the UJ off the steering box.

You think that if I refit the longer pump bolts, that go through into the engine block, that this would nip up the seal enough? You're 100% right, it was opening those three longer bolts that gave the leak.

Having said all that, and given the general pattern of iffy maintenance, I am still wondering about going 'all the way' and taking the sump and cover off.

Any thoughts on a warmer cam? I did have a search on here, but couldn't really find anything specific. By the time you buy the cam and followers, its another £400, so not insignificant, but if I don't plan to be back in the neighbourhood for another few years...... ??

Personally I wouldn't go to the added grief of taking the front cover off, you've already got enough work on your hands as it is. Mine had never leaked even when it was up to 285,000 when the engine came out to be rebuilt. Obviously it was taken off when the engine was rebuilt but that was 135,000 miles and one replacement water pump ago and it isn't leaking now. So yours should be fine. The gasket will have been put on dry originally and the fact it is weeping would seem to suggest there's no gasket goo in there to seal it (or tear the gasket when taken off) so tightening it up when the pump goes back will close up the gap and it will seal again.

Most replacement cams are to give more top end when the engine is used in a Morgan or the like. If anything the P38 could do with a bit more bottom end grunt (or at least the 4.0 litre GEMS could) so you are likely to be in uncharted territory when selecting a cam. As you say, it isn't going to be cheap and if your existing cam and followers aren't worn the cost benefit ratio may not be sufficient to justify it.

Well...... It strikes me that it must often be frustrating to offer good, hard-won and experienced advice to people.......only to have them ignore it!

Pearls among swine, Gd. Pearls among swine.....!

The whole front of the engine was actually pretty grotty. Oil and muck, so I though I'd just prefer to 'do it properly'.

Even underneath the sump was very oily, so I'm thinking that it was leaking somewhere - either the gasket, or one of the oil cooler pipes.

Sump removed ....

More strange non-factory marker pen....

Underneath the engine looked darker than I might have expected

when I took the sump of my 300Tdi, after 23 years and 220,000 miles it looked astonishingly (to me) shiny and clean. I could look straight up under the pistons and see 'clean' metal. This seems a lot darker. I thought the detergents in modern oils were supposed to help keep things fresher? I know the history of my Defender from when it had 65k on the clock, and was about 7 years old. I know I've been pretty religious with the servicing/oil and filter changes, so in that respect I probably shouldn't have been surprised that it looked so clean.

As I was told it, my P38 was a two owner car. Original for about the first 7 years, then the second owner was essentially the same family. It was 'dad's car' then became 'mum's car' until mum felt it easier to use something smaller. Then 'son' said to 'dad' that it ought not to be left sitting around so much, and took it on.

But I do wonder about things. The RH cylinder head has the marker pen writing; the sump has the marker pen; the front of the engine has these stamped marks - are they 'factory'? They don't really look it to me.

Anyway, I think I've reached the bottom of my 'strip down'. Maybe. Camshaft??

I take the point about 'hot' cams being all about the top end. I remember putting a 'fast road' cam, gas flowed head, 1+3/4 SU carb, and competition distributor into a Mini - that was a lot of fun... a lot.

Turner Engineering (who rebuilt my Tdi last year) have a Kent cam on sale. The blurb says this:

_"emphasized text H180 Kent Sports Torque Rover V8 camshaft 4.0 - 4.6 Gems & Mems

Kent Cams H180 'Sports Torque' camshaft has been designed as a straight forward replacement performance cam for the Rover V8 engine and is suitable for both the Gems and Mems (Thor) ignition types.

With a duration of 262º and a valve lift of 11.2mm the H180 camshaft improves low end torque and is capable of increasing peak power by 22bhp, all whilst retaining the use of OE valve springs and maintains stable idle characteristics essential for: everyday use, on or off road, manual or automatic gearbox cars._

_An improved version of the former Kent sports torque H180 v8 camshaft

The new camshaft is produced on an improved 'Chilled Iron' cam blank which gives significantly superior reliability over the original production cams._emphasized text"

I'm 'tempted'. One of the good things about having the P38 as a second car is that I can use it to expand my own mechanical experience (it's doing that already....) so I can 'afford' to have it sitting in the garage while I wait for stuff to come up the road and get fitted.

It's also the case that, even since the beginning of this thread, the car has gone from a 'not quite sure where I'm going with this vehicle' to a 'definite keeper and loving it' sort of thing.

In that respect, even now, an additional £300 for a cam, and £100 for followers isn't 'such' a big deal. If I get the car back together, learn a lot in the process, and then keep it going for the next 5 - 10 years, I'll be delighted.

I'm wondering if the engine has ever been changed or if it is just the oil that has never been changed? I would expect it to look less black than that but I've seen many that are far worse where everything is coated in what looks like, and has the consistency of, black wax. I've seen the marker writing on most engines, so it may be factory, who knows.

You'll know what the rest of the engine is like when you get the heads off and can see the bores.

Thanks Gd - you can be sure I'll post pics of the bores once I remove the heads. (I wish the couriers would hurry up with those sockets!)

I managed to get one of the cam followers out earlier (LH bank, #2 from the front) and it was beautiful. The bottom was mirror-smooth. I couldn't see my face in it, but I could very, very clearly see the weave of my T-shirt reflected. So that's one thing that matches a 75k speedo/mileage figure.

But your "wondering" about the engine or the oil is precisely the question I was asking myself. Is it really as original as a 75k speedo reading would suggest, or has something else taken place - or is it 75k oil?? I have a service record which strongly suggests a reasonable level of servicing, but who really knows what that means.

I will obviously be replacing all the seals and gaskets on the way 'back out' from this point. I have new plugs and leads on order, or already here.

Camshaft. I have a deal of faith in Turners' experience and track record as being a gold-standard supplier so I'm about 80-90% decided to go for their camshaft upgrade. I'm sure I haven't driven the car long enough to have a properly informed opinion about the engine performance - but I can see it increasing my knowledge and experience, while not emptying my wallet.

My daughter's just said she'd like to come home from Uni and get some intensive post-Covid driving experience in before going for a text.

The Yeti's too .new and the insurance would be annoying; the Defender's just not a learner's car; so I'd better get a move on with the P38!

It might just be that the oil changes haven't been done as regularly as they should or it's had cheapo oil in it. What's in the sump looks a bit dirty. Turners and V8 Developments are the only two places I would trust on anything to do with the engine, so what they say about the cam is likely to be correct. Price is a bit steep though. Cam timing for the 4.0 litre and 4.6 are different, (and GEMS and Thor are different again on the 4.6) and I've wondered which one out of the 3 standard ones would give the best results. That's a question for Ray at V8Dev next time I'm passing I think.

As for learning in a P38, my step daughter started learning to drive in a Micra she bought but then lost her job and couldn't afford to run it any longer so sold it. She started a degree course and got a part time job as a hotel receptionist but the buses around here are pretty infrequent and there was none at all if she worked a late shift. She asked about learning in the Ascot (my spare P38) and pointed out that it wouldn't matter if she did an auto only test as all three of my cars and her mothers Merc are all autos. Even with a provisional licence, but 25 years old, she could get Classic Car insurance on a 4.6 P38 for less than she'd been paying on a Micra. Then she went to visit her boyfriend in Holland for a couple of weeks in September while she was furloughed, the Covid restrictions on travel kicked in and she finally managed to get home a couple of days ago (after the bank of step dad stepped in to pay for the multitude of Covid tests).

if you are going to replace your cam with a hot cam just note that to get the best out of it you may have to do more than you think . i have never personally got any advantage from replacing the cam only, doing one mod when you need to do many . to get real advantage from hot cams you need to mod heads do exhaust ,change the mapping of the ecu etc. in some extremes you are required to replace pistons for the correct compression, the list just goes on and on
its easy to tell you it will be ok as its not their car that will not run properly your ecu is set to run a standard cam and the fuel graph will not suit it. it may change the sound it may even increase power in one area slightly but it will run rough in the critical area of the motor use more fuel and and most likely be noisier in the motor
IMHO you need to do it all or do none off it . no real advantage ,good usable power is not cheap
power is all about getting air in and getting it out there is no point forcing air in that that can not get away!
i

Hi - not much progress really. The postie arrived with my 3/4 drive 5/8 socket... and it's just too big. The head casting just gets in the way. Luckily I did also get my 1/2 impact 16mm and 5/8 sockets so I now have a couple of options to use.... when I feel lucky!

Still pondering the camshaft. I phoned Turners to put to them the thoughts above about not changing only one thing. (Though I do get the logic of that). They reckon they've been successfully putting this, or cams like it, into V8s for some 10-15 years. I have a 'shopping cart' filled, just not hit the 'buy it' button, as I thought it might be cunning to check there wasn't some absolutely essential special tool costing as much as the cam.... and while there isn't for the cam, I've realised there are two for the front cover.... b@gg@r. A tool to line up the oil pump drive sprocket; and another to put the outer crank oil seal on.

I haven't set timing before, but have been reading up, and I reckon I could manage that. I'll need a protractor (apparently) but I do have a Dial Indicator (DTI). And of course the heads will be off, so finding TDC shouldn't be rocket science.

For those who know more than me - i.e. most of you - can I presume there are workarounds to this? Any reason I can't fit the oil seal with the cover on the bench, and then persuade the pump into place on the woodruff key?

Back to the camshaft, and pitfalls, tips or tricks to that and the timing??

Thanks.

The oil seal will be much easier to do on your workbench, you don’t need any fancy tools. I jerry rigged a tool to hold the crank for R&R of the pulley nut. Some people do it without the tool, but it’s an easy tool to make. I didn’t use any special tool to line up the oil pump and the pulley also easily slides back on the woodruff key.

Thanks Harv. The crank pulley came off easily enough with my impact gun - the same one that's struggling with the head bolts... which I find interesting.

Good to get it confirmed that I can manage the seal and oil pump in 'bush mechanic' fashion without the LR tools.

On another note, anyone know if the timing procedure is in RAVE? I've seen it set out online, but all I can find in my workshop manual is a reference to lining up the timing marks on the cam and crank sprockets and sliding them on with the chain - nothing about finding TDC or measuring the degrees with the protractor. Of course it could be there, hidden somewhere else, and not in the same section as the camshaft or timing chain replacement.