Whenever the tie rod or any ball joints are replaced, the alignment will need to be set and that is where you may need to throw yourself at the mercy of a professional.

The steering on the recently bought red car didn't feel right and I decided it felt like it had too much toe out. The self centring was vague and it wouldn't stay in a straight line with hands off the steering, it would pull to one side of the other. Took it into a place I've used before and told them they didn't need to worry about the steering wheel alignment as I could do that myself, it was purely the adjustment of the tie rod that needed doing. Unfortunately they have a newer alignment system than they previously had and a technician who wasn't familiar with the steering box type system on the P38. Firstly he wanted to adjust the alignment on on the rear which, as I pointed out, will be correct unless I have a bent axle. Both wheels are going to be pointing the same way obviously. Once he had got his head around how it worked, he realised what he needed to do. Only to find the adjuster was rusted solid. After struggling with it for almost an hour, he gave up and told me that if I could get it freed off, I could bring it back and he could adjust it.

But, as I was about to leave, an older member of staff suggested an alternative method. If I was to use a laser tape measure and measure the distance between the rear and fronts rims of the front wheels that would tell me how much toe in or out I had. As it happens, I've got one of these https://www.amazon.co.uk/Measurement-131ft-40M-Rechargeable-Pythagorean/dp/B0D7PYSRQT/ref=sr_1_22_sspa, so tried it. The front wheels should toe out by 0.6 - 1.8mm. Checked it and found they were toeing out by 4mm! Checked my car, which tracks perfectly, and found it appeared that the wheels had neither toe in or out, but the laser tape measure only goes down to a millimetre so I wasn't able to see if they really were parallel or slightly toeing out as they should but it gave me a target to aim for.

Freed off the adjuster (Plus Gas, heat and a 24" pair of Stilsons), took it right out, cleaned up and greased everything then started. By measuring the difference between the rear and front of the front wheels, I got it so the distance was the same, then gave the adjuster a 1/8th turn in to give it a bit of toe out. That gave me a difference of 1mm, smack in the middle of the setting.

A quick road test showed that the steering wheel wasn't central when going straight ahead. Checked the centre marks on the steering box and that wasn't centralised when steering straight ahead so adjusted the drag link. With the steering lock off and the wheel in the position where it was when going straight, as you adjust the drag link, the steering wheel will move so once it is straight, the job should be done. If the steering box is centralised but the wheel isn't, then it needs the steering wheel moving on the column so they are both central.

A proper road test showed that now the wheel is central when going straight ahead, it self centres properly when straightening up and drives in a straight line with hands off the wheel so that's another job ticked off the list.

Sounds like a reasonable way to get close enough. Interestingly most of the Amazon brands quote 1/16" accuracy, whereas others like DeWalt, Stanley, etc. all say +/-3mm.

Makes me wonder how accurate the tyre centre systems really are ?

The cheap one I have is normally used to measure the size of a room when working out what size AC unit it needs (volume of room in cubic feet x 5 = Btu of the unit required, the same calculation is used for heating) so it doesn't need to be perfectly accurate. Same with checking the wheel alignment, you aren't looking for an absolute dimension, just the difference between the measurement at the front of the wheel rim and the back.

I suspect the tyre centre systems are as accurate as the man that attaches the sensors to the wheels. They gave me a printout of what it thought mine was. It showed 2.1mm of toe IN on the front, when my measurement showed it was toeing OUT but more interesting it showed my LH rear wheel having 8.1mm of toe in and the RH one having 2.9mm toe in. Quite how you can have a total of 11mm of toe in on a solid axle I've no idea and suspect the sensors weren't properly seated on the wheels. The phrase 'all the gear and no idea' springs to mind.

Unless the axle housing is bent, I’m pretty sure you can’t have any toe in or out on the rear axle.

Harv wrote:

Unless the axle housing is bent, .

Can't see how it can bend !! Isn't it a casting ?

I have also had guys with no idea how to setup a steering box system, or why he couldn't adjust one end of the track rod !! Luckily I found another place nearby with an older & wiser alignment guy.

Yes it is, and I may have found all sorts of bodgery that has been done to this car but I can't see an axle being bent, particularly not that much!

there is only 2 adjustments on a rover
align the back wheels with the front wheels so the track is right , this is done with the Panhard rod at the front
and the toe in or out with the front steering arm thats between the wheels
straighten the steering wheel with the arm of the steering box
if you don't have a laser for measure, you can put a chalk mark on the back side on the tread of the tyre , measure and roll forwards 180deg and measure the front to get the toe in or out. this is a little crude, but it will get you in the ballpark so to speak
some of the alignment equipment is very accurate to the point 0.1mm
just a note, there is no adjustment on the back axle, if the axle will not align you most likely need new bushes fitted.

But there's no adjustment on either of the Panhard rods? The Panhard rods cause the axles to move from side to side slightly as the car rises and falls on the suspension but they both move by the same amount relative to the chassis so always remain parallel with one another.

Right, after a second alignment, my steering wheel is still bent.

Is there anything that I can physically inspect on the streets ring wheel by taking it off?

As I said in your other thread, wheel alignment affects what direction the wheels are pointing in, not whether the steering wheel is straight or not, that is done by adjusting the drag ink. Taking the steering wheel off isn't going to show you anything either.

The tie rod at the rear of the wheels, the one that runs across the car connecting both wheels together, is adjusted to get the alignment correct so the wheels are pointing in the right direction (correct is 0.6-1.8mm toe out although better to aim for the lower of the two figures). Then you drive the car and set the steering so the car is travelling in a straight line but ignoring the position of the steering wheel. Check the marker on the input shaft on the steering box to see if it lines up with the mark on the steering box itself. If it does then the steering wheel will need moving on the splines so it is straight. Chances are it won't line up so in that case you need to adjust at the drag link adjuster next to the steering box. Once you manage to unseize the adjuster (Plus Gas, followed by heat and a pair of Stilsons), with the wheels on the ground and steering lock off, as you turn the adjuster the steering wheel will turn along with the centralising mark on the steering box.

Gilbertd wrote:

As I said in your other thread, wheel alignment affects what direction the wheels are pointing in, not whether the steering wheel is straight or not, that is done by adjusting the drag ink. Taking the steering wheel off isn't going to show you anything either.

The tie rod at the rear of the wheels, the one that runs across the car connecting both wheels together, is adjusted to get the alignment correct so the wheels are pointing in the right direction (correct is 0.6-1.8mm toe out although better to aim for the lower of the two figures). Then you drive the car and set the steering so the car is travelling in a straight line but ignoring the position of the steering wheel. Check the marker on the input shaft on the steering box to see if it lines up with the mark on the steering box itself. If it does then the steering wheel will need moving on the splines so it is straight. Chances are it won't line up so in that case you need to adjust at the drag link adjuster next to the steering box. Once you manage to unseize the adjuster (Plus Gas, followed by heat and a pair of Stilsons), with the wheels on the ground and steering lock off, as you turn the adjuster the steering wheel will turn along with the centralising mark on the steering box.

So, I did watch the mechanic do the job. He did use the 4-point Hunter system and did indeed adjust the track rod to ensure all was aligned.

Other sources online are stating the steering wheel itself needs centring. Yes, my mechanic locked the wheel in place with a bar but if the wheel was not centred to begin with, it wouldn’t be useful.

As I want to avoid a back and forth with mechanics, what can I do myself to ensure all is well?

So he's only done half the job. He's adjusted the wheel alignment, whether it is right or not is another matter (did he give you a printed sheet showing before and after?), but not done the second part of the job which is aligning the steering box and steering wheel. It isn't so much the steering wheel that needs centralising but the steering box. If it isn't, the power steering will try to centre the box which may or may not coincide with the wheels being straight ahead so it will pull to one side if you take your hands off the wheel. Once the steering box is correctly aligned, if the steering wheel isn't centred, that needs moving on the splines so it is.

Gilbertd wrote:

So he's only done half the job. He's adjusted the wheel alignment, whether it is right or not is another matter (did he give you a printed sheet showing before and after?), but not done the second part of the job which is aligning the steering box and steering wheel. It isn't so much the steering wheel that needs centralising but the steering box. If it isn't, the power steering will try to centre the box which may or may not coincide with the wheels being straight ahead so it will pull to one side if you take your hands off the wheel. Once the steering box is correctly aligned, if the steering wheel isn't centred, that needs moving on the splines so it is.

Right, I'm now home. This all now makes sense - I need to adjust the steering box and then perhaps get the alignment done again.
I've found this post (I'm a visual learner, so it helps)

• https://rangerovers.pub/topic/617-aligning-steering-box
• also this - https://rangerovers.pub/topic/617-aligning-steering-box

Before I check tomorrow, is this something that can be easily accessed to turn, or will I need to remove the wheel?

This is the printout - https://share.icloud.com/photos/011nhjYbuAZ4yZOzggZarc_-A

From that printout, he's cocked up fitting the sensors as well as setting it to incorrect settings. It is showing a figure for both castor and toe on the rear but you have a live axle so both can only ever be zero. The computer says that the toe on the front should be -0 degrees 10 minutes to 0 degrees (straight ahead). The minus signifies toe in but it should actually be, from the workshop manual, 0 degrees 5 minutes to 0 degrees 15 minutes toe OUT. So he's set it with too much toe in which means you will wear the outside edge of the tyres. The fact that before adjustment it was showing a different figure for toe side to side also shows the sensors weren't correctly fitted. On a car with rack and pinion steering with an adjuster on each side, it is possible for it to be different side to side. With a steering box such as we have, they will always both be the same if the wheels are pointing straight ahead.

You can ignore the caster and camber angles. Caster will change with the suspension height and the state of your radius arm bushes while camber is fixed but will change as your top and bottom axle ball joints start to wear and develop a bit of slack.

As you can only adjust on one side, you may find that if the toe is adjusted so it is correct, the steering wheel may well become straight or at least straighter. Rather than go back to the mechanic with the correct figures (print the page from RAVE, it's page 15 of General Specification Data) and tell him he is an idiot (and the data on his computer is incorrect), you may as well adjust it yourself. The adjuster is on the rod behind the front wheels that connects the two hubs together. To increase the toe out, you need to shorten the rod at the adjuster which is on the RH end of the tie rod. Slacken off the lock bolts (one needs a 13mm socket and spanner while the other is 17mm) and give it one full turn to shorten it. That will get it from where it is to within the limits it should be at. One end of the adjuster has a left hand thread while the other is a right hand thread so turning the adjuster sleeve one way shortens it, the other way lengthens it. If a full turn is too much and you now have too much toe out, the steering will be reluctant to self centre when coming off a corner, so back it off by half a turn.

Think about it. You have a rod from the steering box to the LH wheel. If the LH wheel is pointing straight ahead but you have too much toe in, the RH wheel won't be pointing straight ahead but will be pointing to the left. Consequently, you will need to turn to the right to keep the car going straight ahead. This may be all it is that is causing the steering wheel to not be centred when travelling straight ahead.

Once the toe is correct, or at least a lot closer to how it currently is, see what the steering wheel position is now. If it is now straight, you don't need to do any more. If it isn't, look at the collar on the input shaft to the steering box (where the lower column connects to it). There is a pointer on it which should be pointing at a similar mark cast into the steering box (you may need to use a mirror to see it). If they line up, then the steering box is centered and the steering wheel will need to be moved on its splines. If the marks don't line up you need to adjust at the drag link on the front rod next to the Pitman Arm (the output lever on the steering box). This is a similar adjuster to that on the tie rod but it may well be seized and will need a bit of brute force to get it to move. If you do it with the key in the ignition so the steering lock is off and the wheels on the ground, the steering wheel and the input shaft will turn as you adjust it. Get it so the marks line up and the steering wheel should, hopefully, also be straight. If it isn't, then again the steering wheel will need to be moved on the splines to get it right.

The whole process is in RAVE, with pictures, but it assumes you are familiar with how the system works so isn't immediately clear.