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The only place for a coil spring is up Zebedee's arse.
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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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No, not for me but for our latest new member, Mick. Those of you that still keep an eye on the dark side, will have seen that a new owner had a rather expensive introduction to P38 ownership (https://www.rangerovers.net/threads/engine-issue-newbie-please-help.338546/). Despite those that thought it could just be filled with coolant and it would happily fire up again, I've been and had a look at it today and can confirm it is probably the most damaged engine I have seen, short of one with a rod poking out the side of the block. I rebuilt one that had suffered a similar fate and that at least still ran on 6 cylinders, this one tried to run on 2 but with an almost complete lack of compression on the other 6 pots, it ain't going to run again. Basically, it's phuqued..... I'm going to make a couple of calls tomorrow and see if I can find him a decent 4.0 litre motor and someone to fit it but if that fails I reckon the next best option is to get an engine and fit it for him (although I'm not sure when I'll have time to do it, my employers keep expecting me to go to work for them for some odd reason).

He's actually bought a very tidy motor, body and paintwork is all good, underside is in good nick, EAS all works (needs calibrating as one corner sits lower than the other 3 but that's no biggie) and the air springs look recent, interior is in excellent condition too (it even has a new headlining). Just a shame that someone replaced the throttle body hose with a bit of totally unsuitable pipe......

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Joined: Apr 23 2019
Posts: 190

Welcome Mick, unlucky, that cd have been me on my first weekend

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Joined: Dec 29 2015
Posts: 696

When I had my expensive introduction to P38 ownership I bought mine for 500 quid on eBay from a guy called cn4x4sss. Some 70k later it still works, although the tappets are so dished you could serve soup out of them. Think it was an additional 60 quid to stick it on a pallet up to Glasgow.

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Joined: Mar 22 2016
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I’ll make some enquires, does it have to be 4.0 ?

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Joined: Mar 22 2016
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Phil has a 4.6 thor but that’s all, I’ll make another call in the morning

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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I've spoken to Dave at East Coast. He had a 4.0 litre that came in last week that he wasn't sure what the engine was like so he checked it and reckoned it sounded like a bag of spanners, had over 200k on it and oil in it that looked like it hadn't been changed for half of that 200k. However, he has a 4.6 with a supposedly perfect, low mileage, engine coming in later this week which I've told Mick about. The only thing that would need changing would be the flywheel spacers to make it mate up to the 4.0 litre torque converter, everything else being the same. So any GEMS engine will be fine. A Thor could be modified and fitted with the GEMS ancilliaries but the most difficult bit would be the different CPS mounting so not straightforward and I would think a GEMS would be easier to find anyway.

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Joined: Mar 22 2016
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saved me a call, I wonder if Dave’s rangie has seen light this year..normally tucked up in a garage..

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Joined: Sep 14 2016
Posts: 402

Spoke to Paul Johnson, near Crawley, Sussex. He has a 4.6 GEMs already out of the car. 118,000 miles with full service history. Says it ran nicely. No alternator but everything else is there. About £600.

Clive

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Dave is asking £650 for the 4.6 complete with all ancilliaries so we'll be going for that one. No exchange either, an outright sale so he may be able to get some money back flogging off the good bits from the old engine. Might even pull the old one apart and see if it would be worth doing anything with it.

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Joined: Jan 16 2016
Posts: 234

Remember the 4.0 uses the HP22 box, while the 4.6 uses the HP24 box.

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Joined: Jun 17 2018
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The HP22 should cope with the 4.6.

So long as it isn't driven like a loon everywhere ;)

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Joined: Sep 14 2016
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Glad its all sorted.

Clive

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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I'm aware of the different gearbox and have been assured, as Henry says, as long as it isn't thrashed mercilessly will cope with the small amount of extra power. I did have one other thought though, what about the ECU? However, according to the Nanocom documentation, I can change the engine type from 4.0 litre to 4.6. Never tried it but I don't suppose t will make much difference anyway.

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Joined: Jan 05 2016
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Yep, you can just go in and change the setting. It would likely run lean(er) if you don't I would think.

The gearbox controller has a map too, but in the case of the gems setup you have to change the controller. I went from a 4.6 to a 4.0 when I had my GEMS and didn't initially change the gearbox controller. When I did it made no noticeable difference so that may not be a big concern.

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It lives again! Not at all as straightforward as expected but it looks like we've got there in the end. The owner of the car, Mick, works 4 days on, 4 days off and the only time I could get down there with the engine crane was last weekend (12th Oct). Dave shipped the engine on Monday, Mick was at home Sunday to Wednesday (and had taken Saturday and Sunday off work to get stuck in) and it was expected that the engine would arrive on Wednesday. But it didn't. Contacted Dave who said he would chase the courier and was told it would be delivered Thursday or Friday at the latest. Fortunately, it was being delivered to Mick's mother’s house (where there was more room so the transplant was going to be done there anyway) and she would be at home. Mick then gets a phone call on Friday morning to say it would be delivered on Monday..... Turns out the original courier had picked it up but then couldn't fit it into their delivery schedule so had subbed the delivery out to another company. The only option then was to collect it from their depot and Mick ended up getting a man with a van to pick it up for him so it was ready to go for Saturday.

I got there Saturday morning to be greeted by a complete, and I do mean complete, 4.6 motor sitting on a pallet. It had all the ancillaries still attached, alternator, starter, exhaust manifolds, power steering pump, AC compressor, oil cooler and hoses, water pump, viscous and fan and engine wiring loom. Nothing damaged (or so it appeared). Certainly looked a big bugger sitting there! Mick had been spending time stripping everything off the old engine so that looked pretty naked sitting in the hole. We got stuck in for the most miserable engine swap ever. Despite the garden gazebo over the working area, it was raining, constantly. The gazebo wasn't doing much, the tarp and cardboard under car turned into a gooey mass and we both (and Mick's wife, Sue) were absolutely soaked. The bellhousing bolts had been done up by a tame gorilla at Lode Lane when it had been put together in 1996 so while the bottom two were simple enough, and the top two could be got at through the hole where the ignition coils had lived, the two further up on each side needed multiple socket extensions, a pair of universal joints and a breaker bar before they came loose. Then there's the bolts on the flex plate. RAVE says 33 ft/lbs and Loctite and there must have been a hell of a lot of Loctite. To get better access, the sump came off but even then, only 3 of the 4 came out. The last one needed a 1/2" Irwin socket before it came undone with a healthy crack. So finally, after about 5 hours of swearing at it, the old engine was lifted out (not made any easier by the front bullbar meaning it had to be lifted that much higher).

enter image description here

The Spacer behind the flex plate was swapped over and we figured taking the fan off would give us a bit more space to play with. Would it shift? Would it hell, despite my home made bar to stop it turning and belting the fan spanner with a club hammer. So we decided the engine was going back in complete with fan on the front.

We had the gearbox angled upwards with a jack under it (and a lump of wood jammed in the hole at the bottom to stop the torque converter falling out) so the theory was that we could lower the engine in place angled upwards, bolt it to the bellhousing then lower it down onto the engine mounts. That was the theory anyway but with a complete engine, getting it hanging so the rear was down meant that the centre point had to be towards the front. With the lifting brackets at the rear right and front left, that then meant the engine hung right side down. So it would go in the hole but the RH engine mount was far too low for it to be moved into place. With it tilted the plenum was hitting the top of the bulkhead so it couldn’t go back far enough to reach the bellhousing. By now it was gone 6pm, we were all soaked to the skin and completely pissed off with the whole thing. Time to call it a day, so I went home.

Sunday morning and I drove back to Mick’s to continue. This time I had bought a couple more jacks, some lengths of fencepost and some more ratchet straps with me. Mick and Sue had already started trying to get it in place but it was still sitting lopsided. We lowered it down so the crane wasn’t supporting the weight and took off the plenum and upper manifold. That way we could release the ignition coils to get access to the top bellhousing bolts and the plenum wouldn’t be jamming on the bulkhead. We rearranged the fixings, adding a couple of ratchet straps so we could adjust the angle and started again. This time, with the aid of a bottle jack and lump of 4x4 fencepost under one rear corner, we could get the angle right and finally, the engine slid back and mated with the bellhousing. Bolts in, me underneath with Mick laying across the top of the engine doing the top ones. Flex plate bolts were put back in, engine mounts bolted up and, while I was under there, I figured I would reconnect the lambda sensors. Then found a problem. The car was a 96 with the black plug on the lambda sensors while the engine had come from a 98 with the grey plug and they wouldn’t connect. Bugger, that will need a bit of thought.

The top end of the engine was put back together only using the plenum and throttle body from the original engine. The 96 has the tube from the purge valve going to the upper inlet manifold while the 98 has it going to the throttle body. Mick’s original engine also had a multipoint LPG conversion so the upper manifold also had the additional vacuum take offs so these were plugged for the time being. The plan is to get it running initially on petrol and then re-install the LPG system later.

Connected up the loom (except for the lambda sensors of course), coolant hoses, including the new throttle body heater hose that had caused all the problems in the first place, fitted the radiator, filled the cooling system with plain water initially (no point in filling it with coolant if there’s a possibility it is all going to pour out of somewhere), bled the air out, filled the engine with oil and it all looked ready to go. Fitted the battery and plugged the Nanocom in. The ECU was set for a 4.0 litre engine for Europe so I thought I could get clever. Set it for 4.6 (as it now had a 4.6 in it) and Australia as Oz spec cars don’t have lambda sensors so it wouldn’t miss something it wouldn’t be looking for. Reset the adaptive values and all should be ready to go. Told Mick to turn the key to spin it over and make sure we had oil pressure and it fired up instantly! That should have been a cause for rejoicing but as we hadn’t connected the exhaust downpipes to the manifolds it was a little on the loud side in a quiet residential cul-de-sac. Sounded bloody gorgeous though. So, all we need is the exhaust reconnecting and we should be in business.

Easier said than done though. We all know what a pig the manifold studs can be to undo and we found that the RH manifold had one sheared off stud in it (but two usable M10 threaded holes) while all three were sheared off on the LH one. With a lack of grinder or decent drills, we decided to call it a day and Mick would sort that out over the next couple of days. All sorted, just got to run it to check for any coolant or oil leaks and the job is done. Or so we thought.......

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Joined: Apr 23 2019
Posts: 190

.... I am waiting for the next instalment with baited breath

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Joined: Sep 12 2019
Posts: 2

I on the other hand am waiting to see a therapist.
Hi all i am the lucky owner of this beautiful money pit. I will let Richard continue the story as he does it so well. All i will say for now is he is a legend, it would be in the breakers if not for him. The story does continue and it only gets better, sort of!

Mick
http://s32.photobucket.com/user/Revi1000/media/20191009_112235_zpsprghdsh0.jpg.html?sort=3&o=16 "enter image title here"

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Joined: Sep 12 2019
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Saying that, the next bit was me, SO....
When Richard went home the car was purring like a monster truck, next morning I was back with new drill bits and cutting discs for the grinder.
I had 1 stud to remove on the offside and three on the nearside.
As soon as I looked underneath I new it was going to be a night mare, it took an hour to get the first stud out as it laughed at my drill bits, when it was out it was on with the gasket and new M8 bolts.
The other side i soon realised was impossible with the drill bits I had remaining so I clamped it up to an acceptable standard.
So i started it up and headed off to screwfix for some cobalt bits.
Base Camp
A mile later there was a slight spluttering, then two, then an obvious problem with fuel that was bringing me to a stop, I only just avoided breaking down in a busy junction.
Now parked up it was time to ring Richard where we did lots of checks but it wouldn't run, it would start for a second or two then die.
It then occurred to me I didn't know if all the gauges worked as technically I had only driven it a few days and it had sounded like it was out of fuel even though the tank said half full.
enter image description here
So off I went to get a can of petrol, the next few hours is filled with me trying to find a petrol container as no had any in stock and ended with me buying the personal one off the original garages owner who hadn't told me he had one.
Back to the car and I put in the petrol and it starts first time......I ring Richard to update him and I decide to head home.
Once at home I realise I have only put five litres in the car so it will need more until I can confirm if its a gauge issue.
So I head to the local petrol station, put in £50 start the car.....Now the battery is dead and it wont start.
I call out my breakdown service and wait two hours for him to arrive where he confirms the alternator on the newly fitted engine is knacked.
He puts his power pack under my bonnet and I manage to get home draining all its power.
Next morning I am up first thing, bus to my mums, pick up the old alternator, bus home and old alternator fitted, Battery on charge.
Later that night I go out side, fit the battery and start her up and it roars into life.
My wife comes home from work and I ask her if she wants to come to the shop so I can show off my car with its slightly louder exhaust.
Off we go to the shops, on our return there is that familiar judder for fuel, splutter splutter and its dead again......
Luckily we were only one road from home so I left it overnight, maybe it was a temperature issue?
Next morning i returned to the car but nothing had changed, it would run for more than a second like it needed fuel again, but it had £57 in it, and even if it had a leak and a broken gauge that was still a lot to lose overnight....but as it had fixed it before off i went again on a journey to fetch more fuel.
On my return i put it in but it made no difference. I slowly started to turn up the throttle ring so for the seconds it ran it would run more powerful.
Eventually it was at the max and after a few turns hit the limiter and stayed running, i tried to turn the throttle adjuster down but this had now broken!
I disconnected the throttle and then tied it together with string, got in and managed to get it home again.
Turned the car off, started it again and it wouldn't run, did the throttle max trick and it did, turned it off and the next time nothing, it wouldnt start.
I made a phone call to Richard and told him my new tail of woe and we agreed to meet the next day with his PC and try to diagnose the issue.

I will stop the story here as Richard will best explain the technical parts of the next stage.

As I said, I need to see a therapist and I have NO money left but I will not give up on it. 40 days owned, 3 days driven.

Mick
enter image description here

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So I arrange to be working in vaguely the right area so I can call in on Thursday. I'm armed with the Nanocom, my old Panasonic Toughbook with the EASUnlock software and cable, a multimeter and 8 short lengths of wire. Having thought about it, I was fairly convinced the problem was due to the disconnected lambda sensors. I’d tried to find the difference between the 5-0V Titania sensors with a black plug fitted to a 95-97 P38 and the 5-0V Titania sensors with a grey plug fitted to a 98 P38 and failed. As far as I was able to find, there was no difference other than the plug for some obscure reason. In fact, the lambdasensor.com website suggested the same universal 5-0V Titania sensor as a substitute for both. So I had made up 8 short lengths of wire with a male on one end and a female connector on the other. That way even though the plugs wouldn’t mate with each other I could connect the two together with 4 short lengths of wire. The EASUnlock software was because the car had previously had a bit of a list at the back and when I’d tried connecting to the EAS with the Nanocom, it had crashed the Nano??

Gave Mick a bell when I was on my way and he was already out there when I arrived bonnet up and all ready to go. Told him to start it up and it started, put the suspension on high and switched it off. Checked the GEMS ECU faults with the Nano to find lambda sensor errors on both banks and a long term fuel trim on both banks of -160% (which is a good trick if you can do it). In the Settings, as I’d since read that the country cannot be changed, it said Europe and 4.0 litre. Obviously as I’d tried to change it to Australia before it had ignored the change. My theory was that it was fuelling a 4.6 as a 4.0 litre so running lean and the lack of lambda sensors had also made it think it was running rich (0V being rich with 5V being lean on a GEMS with Titania sensors), so it had been weakening the mixture constantly until it was too weak to actually run. Leaving it for a while meant it thought it was cold, so it was richening the mixture until it warmed up when it became to lean to run. Crawled underneath (the reason for putting the suspension on high) and with Mick calling out the colour codes of which wire went to which (that I’d printed out before going), fitted my 8 short lengths of wire so it had lambda sensors. Reset the adaptive values to clear the long term trims and fired it up. This time it was running in closed loop with the lambda sensors flipping between 0V and 5V, the long term trims at 0% and the short term trims moving either side of 0%. Checked the alternator and found it putting out a healthy 14.1V so no problems there then. I suspect standing outside in the pouring rain before the engine was fitted had drowned the original alternator and taking it apart and drying it all out would be all it needs, but as they are pretty simple to change and Mick had the one from his old engine sitting there, swapping it seemed the easiest option.

We took it for a short test run, and I do mean short, like no more than 400 yards from Micks house, just in case it died again. Running nicely (despite the LH exhaust now blowing nicely from the leak at the manifold) and monitoring it on the Nano showed that everything was responding as it should. Got brave and took it for a longer drive, actually out of the estate and onto proper roads, with traffic that we could bring to a standstill if it did die, and it was still running nicely. Got back, checked the Nano and noted the only thing that wasn't quite right was the IACV was at 12 at idle (rather than the recommended 20-30) although we couldn't adjust it as most of Mick's tools were still at his mother's house. Tried the Nano on the EAS again, crashed it again. Tried EASUnlock and couldn’t get it to connect. Checked the timer relay to make sure it was still there and the bodging bastard that had owned it before hadn’t swapped it for a 4 pin relay and found it was but it still wouldn’t connect. Then realised it was actually sitting level at the back anyway so we didn’t need to get into the EAS.

Decided that it seemed to be OK and we could explain the previous problems so I set off to go home. Mick decided to risk a trip to the shops and was still in my rear view mirror when he turned off and he confirmed later that he made it to the shops and back without any problems. So all good up until now. The original plan had been for him to drive it up to me this weekend so we could reinstall the LPG system but at this stage neither of us thought attempting a 180 mile round trip would be a good idea. That will have to wait for another day. Much like pulling the old engine apart to see just how bad a state it really is in......