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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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.. never seen so many 'ifs and buts' as on my insurance renewal info post-Brexit, "Green Cards" are back etc, and including:

https://www.gov.uk/driving-abroad

....not to mention:

https://www.gov.uk/guidance/driving-in-the-eu-after-brexit

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
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Didn't you get all this last year when the first date was decided on? Mine sent out info then saying about the green cards but covered it with enough to say if you might need one, try to give as much notice as possible

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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Then perhaps it would help if you posted that info. up on here Brian if it is useful: As indicated mine is full of 'mights' and 'maybes' as clearly they are now not so sure just what will happen this year (either) !

EDIT: My insurance actually renews next month (and so covers into 2021...); Accordingly it looks like they may well have incorporated elements of
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/uk-governments-preparations-for-a-no-deal-scenario

'One to watch' !?

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You've only just realised the possible ramifications of lots of misguided people voting for something they had little information on and even less understanding? There has to be ifs and buts depending on what sort of deal is negotiated. If there is no deal not only does it remove all the concessions we get as a member of the EU, but also all those that were agreed many years ago. Back in the 1940's an agreement was reached with the Schengen countries that a UK driving licence was valid over there but that will be removed so we may have to get an IDP to drive on the other side of the Channel (come to that, they may decide we need to apply for a visa to enter Europe, who knows?). The same goes for the green card, we'll need one of those too. Come to that, we'll also be back to the dark ages of no more than 200 cigarettes and 4 litres of wine when coming back to the UK. However, if there is a deal, what concessions we keep will depend on the exact terms of the deal.

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
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Sorry maybe I didn't make what I meant clear - Didn't your insurance company contact you about it, as mine did (in a paper format, not the easiest to post here unfortunately). I'm just more surprised this has only come to your attention now as it seems much the same as they said then (basically as you say "we don't really know what will happen").

The bits about trailers is the most comical bit there - All very well telling you its required to register your trailer if its commercial and over 750kg, but nowhere does it define how to know if it actually is commercial (does it matter what your using it for, or what type of trailer it is, or if its signwritten, or any sort of criteria to allow you to determine what they actually mean. Or does it mean any trailer that isn't a caravan or horsebox maybe?

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If you are being paid to tow it, then it is being used for commercial purposes. In the same way as you would then need to have a tachograph fitted and adhere to the rules that go with it. For that reason every car I take over to France or bring back is registered in my name or I have paperwork showing I've just bought it so my journey is personal and not commercial. Easy and cheap enough to register a trailer if you feel you need to and you get an extra plate for the trailer with a letter and 7 numbers. If you look you'll see them on lots of HGV trailers these days.

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Cheers Richard, I thought you might be able to answer that in a way that made sense. Agree with the previous post of yours, that appeared between me hitting reply and typing the above reply.

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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Gilbertd wrote:

You've only just realised the possible ramifications of lots of misguided people voting for something they had little information on and even less understanding?...... etc ?>

Of course not Richard, anything but (and I am annoyed too) but indeed I am now 'looking forward' (from 2021...) to being in a queue at Customs with confused folks who maybe don't have the requisite Green Card, Insurance Cert. and IDP ....! ?

In fact I went down to the PO to organise an IDP yesterday. I also just found out however that I could not get a Visa on-line to visit a (certain) non-EU country because we are (or will) no longer be in the EU and so have been recommended to make an application in person at the Consulate instead.

Overall I have now started to think that leaving the EU "simply" means lots of queueing.... and I won't even comment here on the so-called "epically likely' deal !

Reading those convoluted Goverment 'Guidelines'/links I admit i did not even realise you could have a trailer with a different Reg. Number to the towing vehicle, so at least I have learned something new from them...

I am also with you Brian on paper Ts&Cs - now requested - as I don't want any more 'on-line surprises' with my insurance either !!

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I very much doubt there would be a check on vehicle documents at the ports, there never has been up until now. The documents weren't even checked when we pulled into Dover port driving a Russian registered Mercedes and handed the officer of the Kent Constabulary my UK passport and my partner's Latvian passport. He was curious to know the story behind it but didn't ask to see any documents. What I do think is that, in the event of a no-deal, the French will insist on an IDP and green card and it will be a nice little earner for them to stop every UK registered vehicle they see to check the documents with the resulting on the spot fine if you don't have them. What most people don't seem to realise is that the green card is also used in the event of an accident but if, for whatever reason, you don't have a green card, you should be carrying a European Accident Statement anyway (see http://cartraveldocs.com/european-accident-statement/).

The trailer regs are a bit different. In most EU countries a trailer over 750 kgs (including caravans) has it's own registration document and is subject to an MoT equivalent test, so it would display different plates to the towing vehicle. Here, to fit in with other countries regulations, a commercially used trailer must have a registration document and plate but isn't subject to an MoT and, as well as the trailer plate, displays the registration number of the towing vehicle.

When I came back through Dover in mid-December I did wonder how Customs are going to cope when/if a no-deal happens. At the moment they'll stop the odd vehicle that they don't like the look of (or have intel on). Are they going to be stopping every vehicle to see how much wine you have in the boot?

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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Fair points Richard and thanks for the link: Yes, the French are really keen on theri on-the-spot-fines of course (although I have had a few similar situations in countries where easy-to-spot rental cars (and unnofficial "tourist taxes" - IMO) have been involved..!

Think you are also right as far as odd/random vehicle checks at Dover etc are concerned - and that's what helped us to get into this mess in the first case of course... (For those interested google "Brodie Clark" and why he was pensioned off). Being (more) controversial it is about time we also had biometrics on our Driving Licences too; eg. Photo/fingerprint taken on issue, like in the US (?)

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
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Not sure the fingerprint is actually useful to have on the driving license, Infact I can think of reasons it shouldn't be on there. Photos have been on them for years though Dave, unless you've managed not to move or get any points in this centuary? Paper ones are still valid, but can't be amended, so you have to have a photocard then (and new photo every 10 years after that).

Yes, the on-the-spot fines would be my concern.

I'd noticed particularly with lorries that have come across from the continent, that they frequently display a different numberplate on the trailer to the towing vehicle, the above does explain why.

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The checks at Dover are pretty cursory anyway and are almost always intel led unless you look really suspicious. It is the checks at Calais that prevent most of the problems. When you drive in you are checked by French Immigration, then UK Border Force and finally by Port of Calais security who will insist on looking in the car and, if towing another car on a trailer as I often are, they'll want to open the car, look in the boot, under the bonnet and under the car on the trailer in case there is anyone or anything in or under the car. If security is raised for whatever reason, before you even get to French Immigration, your car will be searched by French Military. That way, everyone that gets on the ferry is likely to be legit (so the arguments that we want control of our borders back is utter bollocks, we've got control anyway). Much the same going out where French Immigration, UK police and port security will check you at Dover before you get on the boat. In theory French Customs could check you at Calais when you get off but I've never seen any checks on that side, the lanes are open and you just drive through. But what are you likely to be carrying that would interest them that wouldn't have been found at Dover?

In 2004, the EU pet passport scheme was introduced which allowed anyone to take their pets with them on holiday. We've got a small dachshund who has visited most European countries with us and has his passport. The same rules apply to countries outside the EU who are 'listed countries' who use a vet certificate instead of the passport. Animals from countries that aren't listed have to go through blood tests and quarantine. As of the end of this month, a UK issued pet passport will become scrap paper as it is an EU document but will have been issued by a non-EU country. As the UK was in the pet passport scheme, it isn't a listed country as it didn't need to be, so it will become an unlisted country. So no more taking your dog on holiday with you, no doubt the boarding kennels in the UK are rubbing their hands at this one.

We've got biometrics on a passport so why would we need it on a driving licence too? Don't forget that the majority of US Citizens don't have a passport as they never leave the confines of the US so their driving licence is an ID card rather than just something that shows you have passed your driving test.

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Joined: Mar 26 2016
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As someone who spent thirty years pounding the highways of Europe in my 40 ton killing machine doing my best for the environment, I have extensive knowledge of the police and their 'on the spot' fines. The French are going to have an effing field day one we have officially left. I can't remember exactly where it is but on the A26 coming up from Reims near Vimy, there is a dead straight downhill section of motorway which then rises. In the dip is an opening off the motorway and in the summer on a Sunday afternoon, it wasn't unusual to see a Gendarme sat with his little speed gun catching all the Brits in a hurry to get to Calais. They used to make a fortune. The Spanish and Portuguese have also cottoned on to this money earner now thanks to bloody VOSA.
The big shock Brits will get is the size of the fines!! It's not like here .......... £30 or whatever. Over there, when I was running, the fines started at €90! To be paid immediately. If you don't have the cash, they will lock your car and take you to the nearest cash machine.
I have reached the stage where I can't take my car abroad anymore lol. Three trips to Sicily in the last year have resulted in me getting done by speed cameras in four different countries. Three times in Italy and France, twice in Germany and once in Switzerland. The Italians are trying hard to get money out of me at the moment. The French did me for 89 kph in an 80 zone and the fine is €360!! They can fukk right off. All four countries use computers and ANPR so unless I change my number plate (it's already a personal one) I am buggered now.

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Joined: Dec 30 2015
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Gilbertd wrote:

That way, everyone that gets on the ferry is likely to be legit (so the arguments that we want control of our borders back is utter bollocks, we've got control anyway).

You're confusing physical control with legal control.

As the UK was in the pet passport scheme, it isn't a listed country as it didn't need to be, so it will become an unlisted country. So no more taking your dog on holiday with you, no doubt the boarding kennels in the UK are rubbing their hands at this one.

True. I can't imagine negotiating addition to the list of "Listed Countries" will be a huge priority for anyone while we have bigger issues to resolve. On the other hand - what negotiation is actually required beyond "Keep doing what we've been doing since 2004 and nothing needs to change"? It's all down to whether the UK and EU co-operate or fall out.

We've got biometrics on a passport so why would we need it on a driving licence too? Don't forget that the majority of US Citizens don't have a passport as they never leave the confines of the US so their driving licence is an ID card rather than just something that shows you have passed your driving test.

You could argue that our driving license is also an ersatz ID card since very few people carry Passports day to day. I certainly wasn't surprised that the UK driving license was "upgraded" so soon after the ID card legislation took a nose dive. Back then I carried a MOD90 which was so useful for confirming ID I was amazed that people objected to the ID card. Of course, pre 911, we didn't even need passports for flights within Europe - merely confirmation of ID.

Interestingly, these two topics are very much linked. The ID card proposal was seen as a way to control illegal immigration, back in the days of the Home Office stacking applications in the basement and turning a blind eye. I'd argue that the seeds of the discontent that eventually resulted in the Brexit Referendum started to germinate about that time.

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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Well I suspect 'the control of our borders' is a semi-metaphorical but broader phrase Richard: It all stems from the problem that emerged ~ten years ago of course - due the disparity between official and unofficial migration (again not helped much by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brodie_Clark -He got a gong in 2010 and then 'resigned' in 2011 because of extremely lax controls.... You may recall that the numbers applying for a NI number were almost three times the offical immigration figures. The idea of an ID card for the UK was first seriously mooted in 2006 but rejected in 2010 too...

Anyway my comments about biometrics were partly based on my discussions with plod, who waste a huge amount of time dealing with the fact that drivers they stop don't have a licence, or they have 'borrowed' one..... Similarly test fraud: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38645864 These problems could be eliminated by the Test Centre taking biometrics from those bing tested of course. In the US they take the photo/fingerprint in the Tesing Office too..

IMO we should be required to carry our Driving Licences and/or ID in the UK too of course. I would not want to carry my Passport with me everywhere. Incidentally I first encountered smart ID cards in Spain 20 years ago that also contain any 'special' medical data (conditions/medications) in case they are needed by ambulance folks attending an incident/accident who have the card readers for this purpose etc. "Human Rights" activists seem to get quite twitchy about al this obviously.... and I had better stop there before I start on unregulated CCTV Monitoring, Internet Tracking etc and mandatory/statutory DNA testing for all !

The ending of the "pet passport" scheme is rather sad, especially as they were not allowed to vote.... ! However I suspected 'they' were all "barking up the wrong tree" with numerous 'now-we-are-leaving-the-EU issues' too (Sorry !)

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> Interestingly, these two topics are very much linked. The ID card proposal was seen as a way to control illegal immigration, back in the days of the Home Office stacking applications in the basement and turning a blind eye. I'd argue that the seeds of the discontent that eventually resulted in the Brexit Referendum started to germinate about that time.

Good Grief (for real) Morat, did not see your post before I posted mine but we actually agree on something... It had to happen eventually !?

One of the reasons ID Cards were rejected of course was cost... £600M; ie £10 each: Considering the actual 'costs' to the Uk (and the savings made in other ways) it would have been money well spent !

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OldShep56 wrote:

The big shock Brits will get is the size of the fines!! It's not like here .......... £30 or whatever. Over there, when I was running, the fines started at €90!

I think €110 is the starting fine now. Poland is the place to get done for speeding. Their speed limit on a single carriageway is 90 kph but drops to 60 kph 200m either side of a side road joining or a pedestrian crossing. Not long after crossing the border from Germany, I was followed by an unmarked police car who clocked and video'd me at 99kph and not slowing down when going past a junction so was promptly pulled into a filling station forecourt. They showed me the video and told me I would need to pay a fine of 100 zloty I had to admit that I had no idea how much 100 zloty was in real money so asked and was told it was about 30 Euros. The first thing that passed through my mind at the time was, "about 25 quid, a bargain!". As I only had Euros and plastic they kindly pointed out that the filling station they had pulled me into had a Bureau de change so I could pay the fine in zloty at probably the worst exchange rate on the planet.....

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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"The French did me for 89 kph in an 80 zone and the fine is €360!!" - Sacre Bleu OldShep that's dire.....

Whilst I have been stopped a few times now in E. Europe on a whim with a made-up fine for a made-up 'offence' it appeared to be 'negotiable'
(and the locals thought it perfectly fine for the traffic cops to do this too..)

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The French system is the fine is on a sliding scale, 89 in an 80 is over 10% above the limit so the fine jumps up accordingly. There's none of this 10%+2 like here, I got flashed by a speed camera at 91 kph (according to my sat nav) in a 90 zone although I will admit I've not heard anything more (cue a letter from France dropping through the letterbox).....