Ah - thank you - success it now idles again and drives more or less ok - I suppose I now have an easy way of adjusting the idle speed but it is very sensitive and I left it at minimum abt 650 or so - hard to tell.
Perhaps if the gasket was missing then someone has been at it before ! Now I can think again about the original problem of lack of power at low rpm and low speed going up the small hills here - I will change the CPS first - just hope there is nothing I can cock up about that ! thanks again !
Having watched my tame spanner man change mine, it is a 15 minute job that can't be mucked up.
Well I'm usually pretty handy but the problems I have had with the P38 show me that I'm out of touch with the 'modern' computer cars even though I've driven it with no big problems for 12 years - which is why I'm out of touch.
The gasket is only a thin paper one to prevent an air leak. I've never had one either and just put a smear of grease on the back of the TPS.
super4 wrote:
Right - many miles - it still drives note, but Range Rover Malaga - marble floors - shiny new cars with Range Rover labels which I would never recognise as a Range Rover - only 70 thou euros, says - in broken Spanish/English big problem - they can't reset anything or words to that effect and said something about problem with mariposa which means butterfly and they would need it for a big checkover. So drove home having escaped without having to pay anything !
Stopped at 'Tune Rite' - german guy in village who assures me he can reset things but said when I changed the TPS I should have disconnected the Battery (does say this in the manual) but I didn't think it necessary. Anyway, he said go home, disconnect battery for at least 24 hours and the computer devil should reset to basics !!!! What do you make of this ? He said I can go back and he will reset things if that doesn't work !
Orange, this EAS unlock old freebie that I have is only for the Air suspension - are you saying that v4 does all the code reads on our P38s
Butterfly might refer to the throttle butterfly so may not be as daft as it first sounds?
Yes that was my thought too but the way they waved their arms made me think it was a major system fault that went all through everywhere !!
By the way - did anyone pick up on my query ? Best way to clean 12 years of sand and oil off the engine. I know steam cleaning is what people do but I've heard it may not be good for the underbonnet electrics on the P38. What do you do ?
Steam cleaning the engine is possible and shouldn't harm any of the sensors if you are careful. Where you don't want any damp is in the fusebox or ECU.
The main dealer were probably assuming the high idle was due to the throttle butterfly either sticking open or the stop having worn and allowed it to go over centre. In the case of the latter you get a flat spot at very small throttle openings as it is fractionally open, then closes before opening again. There's nothing about it in the P38 version of RAVE but there is in that for the Classic. I had to give mine a tweak at around 300,000 miles. The stop is loctited in so takes a lot of force (feeling like too much) to get it to move and it is only a tiny hex (2mm from memory but maybe 3mm). Page from the Classic manual is below but bear in mind if you do decide to do it, you'll need to reset the TPS again.
Umm - will have to get head round this ! As far as I knew the butterfly throttle was either properly closed and blocked the intake (being a snug fit) or able to begin opening when one put one's foot down. P38 has done abt 120kmiles. Having trouble visualizing the sequence of what goes on here - is over-centre referring to closed posn or somewhere midway. Rethinking - yes i understand that the butterfly is adjusted to be not fully closed with the stop screw - is it really enough wear and tear to make such a difference because when one is putting ones foot down the throttle is well open or as you say is that little delay in start enough to cause this shortage. The idle was not a problem before I changed things. Does the butterfly throttle get moved by any of the car systems independent of your foot ? Certainly the fault feels like a lack of fuel at the moment one increases the acceleration and needs the boost to get up a hill but this is dependent on the RPM - if one gets gear down and puts foot down it seems ok when the RPM is in the higher region. So, seems engine speed related - gonna change that CPS as part of the process but have to go down to see Dave as I can't get up to it from underneath on my track.
By the way I've got an old Haynes manual which includes my Classic and has pretty good pictures and instructions on adjusting idle stuff.
I dont think yiur engine is thor so i dunno how relevant this will be.
I had idle problems months ago. It was a combination.of the cruise control cable not being set right (which was holding the butterfly open a fraction at idle) and a build up of sticky dirt in the butterfly itself.
It had been like that a while and the engine had adapted to the fact that the butterfly was never fully closed. I sorted it, ran it for a day or so and it reset and ran fine.
Mine is GEMS whatever that means - yes your comment is relevant because I did have a lot of oily muck in the entrance to the throttle area and I did a bit of a clean on that. There is lots of muck around the cruise control and throttle cable where they act on the leverage but they seem to seat ok . But remember - I had no idle problems until I changed the TPS and now, having followed advice from Gilbert and others have got the idle ok again by elongating holes on TPS to adjust position for idle. So that gets me back to the original reason for fiddling about - the rough/strange running at certain speeds.
I'm wondering if the Latest EAS software v4 from Storey would help solve my problems - At about £160 it seems affordable and would pay for itself in terms of garage bills ?
When the throttle is fully closed the butterfly should be exactly at right angles to the intake so it is closing it off fully (or as best it can). If the stop or part of the linkage that bears against the stop wears, it will allow it to go beyond fully closed so start opening the opposite way. So you will have a partially open throttle which, as you press the pedal will first of all close before it starts to open again. Nothing, other than your right foot, controls the throttle opening. Idle speed is controlled by the ECU so with the throttle closed so no air passing through it and the closed throttle voltage from the TPS being correct, it will adjust the IAV to get the idle speed correct. If there is air getting through the throttle butterfly it will simply close the IAV a bit more to keep the idle where it should be (RAVE says idle on a GEMS should be 700 +- 20 rpm but reading the settings on mine, the ECU is set for a base idle of 625 rpm). As you open the throttle, the butterfly starts to open up, the TPS voltage rises and the ECU tells the IAV to open to give instant throttle response. If the butterfly has gone over centre, the throttle is actually closing initially but the TPS voltage is rising so the IAV has to be opened much further to try to get the revs where the ECU is trying to get them to. Then you get a slight hesitation on tiny throttle openings before the revs rise further and you'll find it virtually impossible to hold the revs at 1,000 rpm for instance, it will be at idle or higher than that as you can't balance the butterfly opening and TPS voltage to achieve those revs. Admittedly, at 120k miles, I wouldn't expect the stop to have worn but you never know.
I know I must look stupid with the things I say but they are based on the little bits of experience i have got. Your explanation as ever is perfect. I only remember carbs and inlets that appear to shut the throttle because they are shaped to fill the gap perfectly without going beyond the vertical or 90 degree position. Thinking of my Peugeot 309 petrol that I serviced the carb on. Now I understand that P38 can go further round if the stop is not correct. (this is just so you see where I was coming from). Will have to have another look !
super4 wrote:
Mine is GEMS whatever that means - yes your comment is relevant because I did have a lot of oily muck in the entrance to the throttle area and I did a bit of a clean on that. There is lots of muck around the cruise control and throttle cable where they act on the leverage but they seem to seat ok . But remember - I had no idle problems until I changed the TPS and now, having followed advice from Gilbert and others have got the idle ok again by elongating holes on TPS to adjust position for idle. So that gets me back to the original reason for fiddling about - the rough/strange running at certain speeds.
I'm wondering if the Latest EAS software v4 from Storey would help solve my problems - At about £160 it seems affordable and would pay for itself in terms of garage bills ?
Does it log anything for misfires? (any obd reader will tell you that if you have access to one, even a bluetooth dongle and phone app would be enough, doesn't need to be landrover specific).
EAS v4 may help generally, but you need someone whos used it to advise if it does all it claims. Nanocom Evo certainly does a lot more than the generic odb possibly could, but is somewhat more expensive (but doesn't need a laptop to use it, and can fit in the glovebox). Either would seem far more sensible to me than spending time and money on garage bills that don't fix the problem as your finding.
GEMS (Lucas Generic Engine Management System) is only partially OBD compliant so doesn't log misfire codes so the EAS V4, Nanocom or a generic code reader won't show them. It might report too rich or too lean codes as a result of a misfire but that is about all. As full OBD compliance didn't become mandatory in the EU until 2000 I strongly suspect that is why the Thor version was developed with an ECU that is fully compliant.
That is good information Gilbert but for novices like me - do you think EAS v4 it can do things like reset idle of the TPS ?
I read the information on the website but still not clear if that is possible - trying to judge if it would be good for me trying to keep the P38 on the road until I win the lottery !
super4 wrote:
do you think EAS v4 it can do things like reset idle of the TPS ?
The blurb clearly states that it can reset adaptive fuel values so if it can't reset the TPS, I'd ask for my money back. TPS idle voltage is one of the adaptive values along with long and short term fuel trims.
Gilbertd wrote:
super4 wrote:
do you think EAS v4 it can do things like reset idle of the TPS ?
The blurb clearly states that it can reset adaptive fuel values so if it can't reset the TPS, I'd ask for my money back. TPS idle voltage is one of the adaptive values along with long and short term fuel trims.
Why not just email them Super4. Put the speculation to bed!
Well I did email Storey a couple of days ago but it must be holiday or hurricane time ! Tired of waiting so thought I could get it from the horses mouth ! (that's a compliment by the way !) Can't afford to offend anybody on here. Just to keep you on your toes - have a connector on front of my old Classic engine block (poss heat sensor) that either never has had a wire on it or Mr Rat has kindly removed it completely so will add a picture for the 'What is it' and 'where would it go' quiz ........later......
I don't know of anyone that has bought the EAS V4 although I considered it initially. Despite people saying the the free version was unstable and not that good, I never had a problem with it, possibly due to using it on a geriatric Panasonic Toughbook with a proper RS232 port rather than trying to use USB and a dongle. Looking at the screenshots of the V4, it shows a tab for the HEVAC which was one thing I wanted as the book symbol appearing intermittently with no real clue why was annoying me. However, in the specs it doesn't mention the HEVAC at all. I emailed Storey and asked him if it did the HEVAC. He came back, admittedly after a few days, to say that he hadn't yet got it working with the HEVAC and it was a 'work in progress' and would be added at a later date. Reading between the lines on the other forum it seemed that a 'work in progress' meant that it might be introduced at some point in the future or, more likely, would be forgotten about until he released V5 in exchange for an even greater amount of hard earned. At that point I decided to discount it and save my pennies for a Nanocom. Colin from Blackbox Solutions who designed the Nanocom reckons the HEVAC is one of the hardest modules to crack anyway but he's proved it can be done with the Nano.
Bring it on with a spurious connector, I had a Classic LSE prior to the P38 so have a bit of experience with them.