ARP used to give alternative torque values for straight 30 weight oil but, now they've moved on from that to reap the benefits of another revenue stream.
Cheapest I've found after a quick search is
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/GENUINE-ARP-ULTRA-TORQUE-LUBE-1-69-oz-PN-100-9909-/282034745564?
The $1000 dollar question is...
Stump out the money on what is going to end up a £4000 plus build, or use a 50/50 mix of ATF and moly-lube on the head nuts and washers, which is what I've used in the past on high performance aluminium head builds.
That's before you even get into the debate about what torque to actually use.
ARP say 100 lbft in their instructions
http://arpinstructions.com/instructions/157-4301.pdf
Popular opinion across the forums says less!
I've had a look on eBay, and I can get a .5 Oz sachet of the lube for about £4.50 - so will order than now along with the ceramic grease for the other threads.. I don't have ATF at home at the moment, it's all at the workshop. So it will be easier in the long run to just get the ARP stuff and be done with it.
V8 Tuner who I bought the ARP studs from say that 70lb/ft is what they recommend for composite gaskets as final torque on the studs. They say to do up in 3 stages, leaving it to settle for 20/30 mins in between the stages. The ARP instructions I have with the kit say 80lb/ft.
Ahh, the joys of doing something like this yourself...every turn there is more to spend and it's all the little things that keep adding up... like the thought that I will need a crankshaft bolt/spacer, and for some stupid reason, the bolt is £15 on it's own. I could just re-use the one off my current engine, but it would be useful to have as the engine gets more assembled to then be able to turn it over by hand.
I was also thinking today that I've bought new engine mounts, so will need new nuts for them (RAVE says to replace them anyway - but if they are like any of the other nuts underneath they will come off in a state you wouldn't want to reuse them!), and also I'll probably need to use some special running in oil for the first 500 miles or so, and there was a couple of other things too... oh, yeah, starter motor is probably worth replacing as I doubt it's ever been done, and it's getting dripped on with coolant at the moment from one of the leaks the current engine has... likewise alternator bearing on the current one whines, so swapping that would probably be a good preventative thing too..
Think I'll almost need to make another list of all the extra things I'm going to need... at least one of the rocker covers is now clean, and the other is still soaking in some neat degreaser as the overnight soak in a solution of it with water only loosened the top layer of crud! Might try and get that cleaned today, and then at least I can say that all the current parts are all clean, at least...
There will be pictures later of today's progress..
I wasn't sure that the .5 oz would be enough for 20 studs hence looking for the larger pack!
Did you buy the older ARP kit with the 8 "spare" studs? More studs but cheaper, which I've never really understood, and a different set of torque figures. 70lbft sounds like a good number to shoot for.
I think the 0.5 Oz should be fine... I've bought it now, so will see how I go... it's probably all that would have come in the box anyway if it was included..
I went for the same set of studs that Ferryman went for from V8 Tuner... £122 odd for the set. It's also the actual 20 bolt later set, for reasonable money compared to what eBay sellers or RPI want for them. I'm almost tempted to see what they go for in the USA and if they are cheaper, then pick up a couple of packs of them whilst I'm out there for future rebuilds...
The only advantage to the bigger set I guess is you can use the extras as exhaust studs on the downpipes..
I got my studs from V8 Dev..... £120 plus the dreaded if I remember right (I know they came to around £140 all in). They recommended 70ft/lbs, done in 3 stages, too. For running in oil they suggested using the cheapest mineral 20W-50 I could find for the first 1,000 miles to let everything bed in nicely. After that, 10 or 15W, 50 or 60 fully synthetic and change it every 10,000. I've been running this stuff http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/engine-oils-and-car-fluids/engineoils/10w60-engine-oil/?521770981&0&cc5_253 in it for 36,000 miles now (yes, I really have done 36,000 miles in under 2 years) and it may be expensive (so I buy it when they have one of their 30% off deals on) and my motor seems to like it.
Damn, 20/50? how loose are these engines?
Dunno about loose but don't forget they were designed in the 1960's so not exactly high tech.
Gilbertd wrote:
I got my studs from V8 Dev..... £120 plus the dreaded if I remember right (I know they came to around £140 all in). They recommended 70ft/lbs, done in 3 stages, too. For running in oil they suggested using the cheapest mineral 20W-50 I could find for the first 1,000 miles to let everything bed in nicely. After that, 10 or 15W, 50 or 60 fully synthetic and change it every 10,000. I've been running this stuff http://www.eurocarparts.com/ecp/p/car-accessories/engine-oils-and-car-fluids/engineoils/10w60-engine-oil/?521770981&0&cc5_253 in it for 36,000 miles now (yes, I really have done 36,000 miles in under 2 years) and it may be expensive (so I buy it when they have one of their 30% off deals on) and my motor seems to like it.
Bugger... makes my brand new 20 or 25L drum (can't remember what it was that I got) of 10W/40 at the workshop useless now... I had originally bought it for doing an oil change on the old girl, but since the block's been leaking - figured it can just deal with the oil that's in there, especially given the mileage it gets.
So, Update time...
Rocker shafts are still in the freezer, and I haven't yet had the chance to heat the pedestals. I'm wondering about giving the inside of the pedestals a light rub down with high grit paper to make sure they don't have anything which is catching, and then also giving the shafts a chamfer on the end with a grinding wheel. Or I could just be patient and wait for the new shafts to arrive which will hopefully just fit...
So, instead, today I've been cleaning rocker covers again - and now have them at a stage where I'm happy to call them clean enough. They will now get masked and painted. I've tried getting the oil filler tube out of the RH one, but it's stuck in there solid.. even an oil filter strap wrench wasn't moving it.. but hey, I'll just mask around it and be done with it.
So with that done, I turned my attention to the big shiny thing sitting in the garage, and decided it was time to make a start. The logical place was to get the cam installed, so got it out of it's protective bag where it's been the last 4 years!
And give it a rub down with some carb cleaner, and paper towel to remove the protective rust inibitor coating that was on there. Next I loosely (finger tight only) bolted the cam timing gear onto the front as per Ferryman's suggestion (thanks for that!) to aid with controlling the cam when fitting it to the block.
Next, it was put on the bench and cam lube smeared all over it - mounting surfaces and cam lobes
There is a load more lube left, so this will get dripped onto the lobes through the holes in the casting on the block, and also smeared on the tappets when they get installed to make sure it's nice and ready for when it gets installed and run in.
I didn't get any pictures of it actually going in as I had my hands full, but it went in nicely, and turns smoothly and freely.
I then took the gear off and fitted the new thrust plate, and bolts, and torqued them up to the required 25Nm. Then got the new timing chain and crank gear out and fitted them, along with the cam gear again and got the timing lined up
Then decided to get the ARP studs out and put them in the block. This was when I remembered/found again that there was no ARP lube included. The instructions only mention about lubing them when putting the washers and nuts on, so figured I would fit them to the block, at least to satisfy myself that they will all go in OK and without trouble.
I did them up finger tight as the instructions said, but found that a couple of them were about half a turn out from being all the way in - so gently tightened them with an allen key in the top of the stud, and they all then seated fully. As the instructions said hand tight only, I then backed the studs back out a few turns with the allen key, and then re-did them back up again hand tight. This time they all went all they way in. I then checked with a steel ruler the height of the studs sticking out, again to satisfy the perfectionist in me that they all actually were all the way in. There were a couple that were about 1mm lower (58mm out of the block rather than 59mm - and no not any of the ones that needed the earlier 'tweak' to get all the way in either!) but I figured that isn't going to make a big difference in the grand scheme of things, as I'd rather know they are screwed all the way in, than leave it out 1/4 turn to make it the same height - I tested the theory on one of them, and it just still felt loose - so did it back up hand tight again and left it!
And that is about progress for today...
The front cover had a second coat of paint on the front this morning, and the coverage it looking pretty good. I'm trying to decide if I put a 3rd coat on, or just leave it. I'm leaning towards just leaving it at the moment - it's hardly seen and 2 coats is going to give it a bit more protection against inevitable oil leaks/stains, and workshop track mud!
I'm about to go and unmask the rest of the plenum parts, and tomorrow I'll bolt them all back together with the new gaskets, and that can then get bubble-wrapped and set aside ready for later in the build. I will need to tidy the bolts up as the heads were a bit rusted, but maybe a quick spray once they are done up will tidy them up...
New oil pump gears are ready to fit, likewise the oil pressure relief valves have new O-rings ready to go on, and then they can be reinstalled and new front seal fitted. That would then see the front cover pretty much finished and ready to go on the engine.
The heads are ready to fit aswell, I just need to wait for the ARP lube to show up and then I'll get the head gaskets out, and start doing the scary torquing sequence...
So, the kind of order of things I see happening now...
Reassembling upper manifold parts/throttle body
Masking and painting rocker covers
Final cleaning/masking/painting sump
Fitting oil pump gears (and pack with vaseline) to front cover
Refit oil pressure bypass/relief valves with new O-rings. Fit new oil pressure switch, and front seal
Fit front cover to engine
Fit head gaskets/heads to engine once ARP lube arrives.
Reassemble rocker shafts once new shafts arrive/make current new ones work if the Bearmach ones aren't any better...
Add more lube to the cam/lobes/tappets and fit the tappets
Fit rocker gear when assembled, and shim appropriately for correct preload
Drill/Tap lower inlet manifold once LPG nozzles arrive (have been ordered now!)
Mask/Paint lower inlet manifold once nozzles are fitted
Clean petrol injectors, and fit new O-rings
Fit valley gasket, end seals, clamps
Fit lower manifold/fuel rail, and make mountings for the LPG injectors. Also scavenge the injectors from the RR and blank off the inlet hosework to allow it to still run on petrol, but give me the injectors to mount on the new engine.
Fit oil strainer, sump etc
Buy and fit new water pump
Maybe purchase ancilliary mounting brackets so these can be cleaned and installed on the new engine - again another thing that should make the swap quicker..
I'm sure there is more to add to the list, but I'm also hoping I can start ticking a few things off soon!!
The 'to buy' list is currently:
New water pump,
Spark plugs,
Cooling hoses
Ancillary mounting brackets
Possibly new starter motor
Possibly alternator - either refurbished, or one to refurbish myself
Crank pulley bolt/washer
Everything else I've forgotten...
Marty
It's looking good Marty. This is the most fun and rewarding part of any rebuild, so don't forget to take a bit of time out to enjoy it!
If you're going to be doing the above list before you go away, you may as well drop your new tappets into a bath of whatever engine oil you're planning on using now, and leave them to marinade gently. It'll save you from that Doh! moment when you go to install them and realise that you haven't soaked them and have to wait.
I don't know how much of the list I will get done before I go away, but I will hopefully get the heads and rocker gear on before I go, so I will put the rockers in a nice 10W40 marinade. How long should they soak for before putting them in the block?
I didn't get much done today, as I'm waiting on parts arriving still - so hopefully from tomorrow I can start getting things done again.
I did get the first coat of paint onto the rocker covers this evening, and had a delivery of the inlet manifold outlet pipe that goes to the top hose/radiator. The price from Island 4x4 and LR Direct is £50 plus - and I managed to win this one in an auction on eBay for £0.99 plus £6 shipping... not bad for brand new in the bag..
I've also ordered the LPG nozzles, and some more stainless steel bolts to reassemble the inlet manifold. So hopefully the ceramic grease turns up, so I can dot some of that on the threads. I'm happy with how it came out though.
Also the lower inlet manifold - I cut the rusty steel barb off and punched out the bit still in the manifold, before drilling it out a bit wider and then tapping it to 1/8 NPT thread, as I managed to find a 45degree elbow with 1/8 NPT thread on one end, and then a 8mm hose connection on the other - so that will hopefully make a nice replacement over the rusty barb that was there. I have some liquid thread sealant which should keep the coolant in nicely. Once the LPG nozzles are here, they will get drilled and fitted. then another clean to get rid of the swarf and then masked/painted. I've marked out nozzle locations which are closer to the petrol injector nozzles, but holding off drilling them until they are actually here.
A few more (probably boring by now!) pictures...
I had laid all the bits out ready to reassemble, and then decided to go with stainless bolts, and originally thought I'd fit it all and then just swap the bolts over, but would need to remove the throttle body to access one of them, so the decided I'd just be patient and wait!
My £7 buy... not bad since they are over £50 inc VAT from parts websites...
First coat of paint - will probably do 3 coats on these.
Oh, also took the masking off the front cover. Tomorrow will look at giving the inside a final wipe down, and then reinstalling the pump gears, relief valves and the new oil pressure switch.
As long as you like- you can't oversoak them.
Couple of days would be good
Martyuk wrote:
I don't know how much of the list I will get done before I go away, but I will hopefully get the heads and rocker gear on before I go, so I will put the rockers in a nice 10W40 marinade. How long should they soak for before putting them in the block?
They can go for a bath tomorrow then!
So, today's installment...
Nothing more has happened on the actual engine itself, as I'm still waiting on the ARP lube to arrive, then I'll get the head gaskets out, and the heads on/torqued.
So first task today was to put the tappets in a bath:
Once this was done, and they were stored on the shelf, I decided to turn to assembling the front cover. The painting is done on it, and I unmasked it last night. So first was to get the oil pump gears in and the cover on. I marked the outer/inner gear position as they came out the box, so I would have them the same when I assembled them in the cover.
First step was to lube the housing with assembly lube, and fit the outer ring gear:
Followed by the inner gears:
Then a smear of assembly lube on the top of them for when the cover goes on, and packing the gaps in the gears with vaseline to help with a quick prime:
Then lube on the inside of the pump cover:
Followed by screwing the cover on, with a dot of Loctite 222 as per the overhaul manual, and then torqued to spec:
Done:
Next on the list was putting a new pressure switch on, and the pressure relief/bypass valves back in and the circlips back in.
Then installing the new front seal. Overhaul manual says to use a remover and replacer special tool, which I don't have.. I lubed the edge of the seal and the bore with a bit of fresh engine oil, and then pressed the seal in by hand as far as it would go. Then used a small hammer and block of wood across the metal rim to gently tap the seal in so it's flush.
There's a note in the overhaul manual to fill the inner of the seal with a specific Shell grease, which I can't find anymore, but have got what is the new version of... unfortunately had to buy a 400g tube for one tiny bit to do the seal, but the manual says to not use any other grease... don't know why but hey... I haven't greased it yet, I'll do that just before fitting to the engine.
After that was wrapped up in bubble wrap and put on the shelf, I turned to the lower inlet manifold again. The postman had brought me my adapter which I bought to replace the rusted barb that was there.. so installed that with some thread locker. I think it should do the job.. the 45 degree angle should point the hose in the right direction to the throttle body heater.
Just waiting on the LPG nozzles, so I can then drill/tap and install them - then mask and paint the manifold.
My stainless bolts also turned up, so bolted the 2 halves of the plenum back together, before realising that whilst I had M6 stainless bolts, they were 12mm long, not the required 25mm to then bolt the throttle housing on... so back to eBay to order more bolts!
DHL also made an appearance with my replacement rocker shafts from LR Direct. I went with Bearmach ones this time.
I had mic'd out the original shaft at about 20.54mm, and Britpart replacements at 20.58mm. The Bearmach ones come in at about 20.53mm
So I laid out all the parts again to assemble the shafts:
The pedestals just slide over the shafts now - still a tight fit, but they fit nonetheless! I did give the inside bore of the pedestals a quick rub with 600grit paper, more to polish them as there were a few scrape marks. After cleaning the bores, it was time to assemble the shafts:
And then complete:
So, even though I haven't made any more progress on the actual engine itself, I'm starting to get a few more bits prepared for fitting as/when I get the heads on.
Rocker covers will have their 3rd coat of paint tomorrow, which will probably be the last one for them since they are only just visible! Still need to give a final clean/masking of the sump and get it painted... then it will just leave the lower inlet to paint, and then it's just down to assembly. I should probably order the water pump at some point!
Don't want to worry you but the original rockers are cranked one way or another and fitted alternately. Those steel ones all look straight?......
Gilbertd wrote:
Don't want to worry you but the original rockers are cranked one way or another and fitted alternately. Those steel ones all look straight?......
Oh dear, I hope you're wrong.
MMmmmmmm shiny shiny engine parts with lovely machining and all slathered in lube...
I'm sorry, I think I just....
Bye!
Gilbertd wrote:
Don't want to worry you but the original rockers are cranked one way or another and fitted alternately. Those steel ones all look straight?......
I should have taken a picture of the underside of all the rockers now they are assembled... being aftermarket rockers, they don't have the indent to show which way they are cranked - but they are on the pads underneath. I spent a fair bit of time checking to make sure I've fitted them to the shafts in the correct orientation - to the point I sat one on one of the heads, to make sure it all lined up.
I'll get a picture of the underside tomorrow... if for no other reason than the dangle some more shiny bits in front of Morat...
Morat wrote:
MMmmmmmm shiny shiny engine parts with lovely machining and all slathered in lube...
I'm sorry, I think I just....
Bye!
Yeah.... it's nice working with new things for a change... I'll almost be sorry to put it in the RR where I can't always look at it in it's full glory... but at the price it's coming in at... it needs to work to pay itself off!
Still, I'll have at least 2 more engines to work on once this one is done for the other 2 RR's at the workshop... I probably won't do full build threads on them, but I can send you photos of shiny engine parts direct to your inbox.. maybe I could set up a subscription service for it...
Still, I'll have at least 2 more engines to work on once this one is done for the other 2 RR's at the workshop... I probably won't do full build threads on them, but I can send you photos of shiny engine parts direct to your inbox.. maybe I could set up a subscription service for it...
Pay-per-view streaming video. Hmm, revenue stream for the site... :-D
Martyuk wrote:
Yeah.... it's nice working with new things for a change... I'll almost be sorry to put it in the RR where I can't always look at it in it's full glory...
Thinking about glass rockercovers, same time a nice check for lubrication while running :)