gordonjcp wrote:

Still, I'll have at least 2 more engines to work on once this one is done for the other 2 RR's at the workshop... I probably won't do full build threads on them, but I can send you photos of shiny engine parts direct to your inbox.. maybe I could set up a subscription service for it...

Pay-per-view streaming video. Hmm, revenue stream for the site... :-D

Good idea! can I come along when you visit some reference sites? :)

Well, if anyone is still following this and not bored with me writing stuff every day, then some more pictures and an update...

Today was a good day... and got some of the main, and scary, parts done...

The ARP stud lube and also my other stainless bolts arrived to finish bolting the throttle body to the plenum. so with that exciting news... I started off by lubing the studs up.

Followed by putting the head gasket on the block surface:

Followed by sitting the head on:

Then lubed up the washers and nuts, and threaded them on hand tight and then torqued to 20lb/ft

So on the recommendation from V8 Tuner to leave it for while in between each round of torquing, I moved onto finishing assembling the throttle body and plenum.

I then decided to make sure that the new threaded stub fitted amongst the plenum and the rest.

And cutting a piece of pipework to run between the two points - thanks Sloth for the offcut of silicone hose!

With that done, I did round 2 of torquing up to 45lb/ft. I had a sphincter clenching moment as I was going through about 37lb/ft and felt it turn about 1/8th turn with no torque increase at all... with thoughts running through my head of stripping the first thread of the new engine... I kept going and saw the torque increasing again and then hitting 45lb/ft. I don't know why it did that, but did it on every stud - so guess it might be normal!

After another breather break to let it settle at 45lb/ft I set up the torque wrench to 70lb/ft as was recommended again by V8 tuner, and took a deep breath and went for it..

Success, one head down, so spun it round on the stand and got cracking on the second one before leaving it to settle at 20lb/ft over dinner...

Post-dinner, I got back to it, torquing up to 45lb/ft and being prepared for the 1/8th turn of ease during this stage, and again, every stud did it. Then another break, and finally 70lb/ft on everything.

To finish off the evening, I've masked the sump off, ready for it's first coat of paint in the morning...

So... fingers crossed the LPG nozzles turn up tomorrow, and then I can get the lower inlet drilled out.
Next steps will be first coat of paint on the sump, and then slathering the cam lobes with more lube, fitting the tappets from their nice bath of oil, and then it's on to pushrods, rocker gear and shimming the rockers. If I can get that done tomorrow then it might be possible to have the valley gasket and end seals on by the end of the day tomorrow (think it will be too cheeky to try and get the front cover on too!)

So the question I have for tonight is... should I go back over the head bolts in the morning with the torque wrench at 70lb/ft as it will have had a few hours overnight to have sat and settled? Or do I just leave it now they've been done up?

It is a bit amazing to me how quickly it all actually goes together... all of the time for me has been taken in the researching, purchasing, and preparation of the parts.. as far as assembly goes, I've probably only spent one full day on assembly, if I added it all up..

Marty

Leave as is!
Older gaskets used to require a re-torque after a couple of heat cycles, but modern composites don't.
Give your sphincter a rest :)

Martyuk wrote:

So the question I have for tonight is... should I go back over the head bolts in the morning with the torque wrench at 70lb/ft as it will have had a few hours overnight to have sat and settled? Or do I just leave it now they've been done up?

Looks good Marty, indeed putting things together is a fraction of the time compared to preparation. As they say, preparation is half the job.

About the retorqueing, I don't know. What I always encounter is when following the right sequence, after the last bolt you think you're done, try the first one again and you will be able to turn it a bit again with the same force. Strange.

I doubt you will need them but just in case you do find that the tappet pre-load is out of spec due to the heads having been skimmed, I've got two sets of unused rocker pedestal shims, 15 and 30 thou. Let me know and I'll whack them in the post.

Gilbertd wrote:

I doubt you will need them but just in case you do find that the tappet pre-load is out of spec due to the heads having been skimmed, I've got two sets of unused rocker pedestal shims, 15 and 30 thou. Let me know and I'll whack them in the post.

Cheers for that... when I first started collecting parts for the rebuild I actually bought a shimming kit for the rocker pedestals, which has appropriate thickness welding rods all marked up, and sets of shims of various thicknesses. I don't know exactly what thicknesses I have as it's literally been years since I've looked at it all, but if I need some 15 or 30 though shims, then I'll give you a shout!

No sign of LPG nozzles yet... they are coming on My Hermes though, which I detest for a variety of reasons... mostly because when I had something delivered at my old flat, it turned up whilst I was away working, and they thought that my wheelie bin was a 'safe place' to leave it... just aswell I didn't have neighbours who put the bins out for me whilst I was away!

Right.. Off to the garage for today's installment... coat 1 of paint on the sump, then installing tappets, pusrods, rockers and shimming...

It's all looking good but I'm still having difficulty getting my head around some of it. Painting bits that you see I can understand but the sump? It'll be covered in mud the first time you drive the car out of the workshop. As for more than one coat, blimey.......

Everyone wants a shiny sump! don't they?

The enamel paint has quite a smooth finish to it, so hopefully the dirt won't get quite as easily stuck to the otherwise rough casting finish, making it easier to clean.

Plus, why not!

Painting parts... well, mostly because if I look under it, I'll see the sump ;-)

But also mostly as Sloth says, because if going by how ingrained some of the dirt has been on the parts that I've cleaned already goes - I'm hoping it will make it easier to clean off... on the odd occasion it gets washed.. That and because why not... it's probably cost me £20 in paint to do it all, so for that and a bit of time to tart the old girl up a bit, it will hopefully keep it looking nicer for a bit longer... I don't intend on pulling this lump out again any time soon.

The aesthetics of the engine aside..

My pre-load as per the instructions on V8 Dev website on the rocker pedestal is 0.045" which translates to a tappet preload of 0.072"

Now, depending on where you read, that's either OK or not ok.. V8 Dev don't go into checking the preload of all the tappets by turning the engine and measuring the pre-load at the tappet circlip. But they imply on the site that getting the preload under 80 thou makes it acceptable... RPi on the other hand mention about checking the pre-load on each tappet, and then working it out to shim it to be between 0.020 and 0.050... Which at the moment the 0.072 on mine is outside of..

I'm going to go and measure the current preload on each tappet, and see what it comes out at.

The other question is... Once I've got this all set and buttoned up, seeing as I am heading away for a fair while, how much more should I actually assemble? I could get the valley gaskets, and seals and caps on, front cover on etc - but is it worth me leaving the valley gasket off an dribbling some more lube on the camshaft and lobes just before I put the rest of it together, so it's all freshly lubed before it gets fitted? I'm partly leaning towards doing that, but the cam lube is pretty sticky and the tappets have drizzled some fresh engine oil into the mix aswell... then I can get most of it all buttoned up, and then it's just the external bits and pieces to fit when I get home, and then get it swapped over. The other half of me says, sod it - don't rush it, put some more lube on it just before finishing the assembly and arranging to get it installed.

Thoughts?

Marty

Leave it open with valley gasket off and drizzle lovingly when you return!
Tape some clear polythene or something over all the open bits, or just wrap the entire engine on the stand in polythene to keep any crap/ airborne contaminants out. No need to seal the polythene to make it airtight or anything. Don't use cloth, old sheets or anything cos they attract damp.

OK, somewhat frustrated..

Added a 15thou shim to the first rocker shaft and preload at the tappet is just over 40thou. Though I have found that my 40thou feeler is actually bigger than 40 thou, so not helpful. I'm going to use my micrometers to measure some up and maybe make my own set of feelers.

Since I can't be 100% sure that all the gauges I have are correct, I'm going to remove the shims and re-measure it all again. The slightly worrying thing is that the preload towards the rear cylinders was somewhere between 50 and 60 thou, with the front ones being less... I know they say to try and average it out, and to use the same shims on all pedestals, but is the difference front to back a big issue?

Other thing whilst I remember... The overhaul manual says 28lb/ft torque on rocker shaft bolts... I saw on RPi's site about preload etc that torque should be 35lb/ft... what to go for?

You can always swap around some cam followers to try to get the preload more equal. As nothing's yet run together you can play around with follower combinations as much as you like...
EDIT- did you "roll the pushrods to make sure they're all straight? They nearly always are, but worth a check

Marty- I've just had a look at the RPI instructions (interesting- hadn't looked at these in detail) and I think you might be introducing a "fudge factor" into your measurements, which could potentially mean that you'll find it hard to get consistently repeatable results. I've picked out the problem area in bold:
"The following information assumes that the following components are in good condition - rockers, pushrods, valve guides and valve stems. a clearance of .020" to a maximum of 0.60" must exist between the spring loaded pushrod seat in the top of the lifter, and the underside of the retaining circlip. This check should be made with the valve gear fully assembled, and the lifter empty of oil, positioned on the lowest point, on the back of the camshaft. The simplest way to measure the gap is by using round wire. Use a piece .020" for the low clearance check, and a piece of .060" for the high clearance check. Check all 16 lifters individually."
You've primed your lifters and also they're skating on a raft of assembly lube. Both of these will give a variable cushion. The RPI instructions are based around a dry build (actually a pre assembly with only a squirt of light oil on touching surfaces). I'm going to pop over to V8 Devs site and have a look at what they say and will come back in a bit...

Pushrods are all straight, yes - so that's one good thing. But they aren't all the same length, though the tappets all look equal...

After measuring up the pushrods, I've got 2 sets of 8 which are pretty matched. Went back to the first head, and re-measured it and re-shimmed it with 30thou shims (it actually looks like this side of the block has been decked in the past as there's a small lip at the bottom, where there isn't on the other side of the block, nor on the other GEMS block I have) and measured preload on all of the tappets. All seem to be pretty close now - between 40 and 50 thou from what I can gauge.

Second head however... shimmed at 30 thou aswell, and front 4 tappets all around 40 thou, and the rear ones with nothing.. Swapped the shims for 15thou, and now have 40-50 thou preload on the rear 4 rockers, and 60-70 thou on the fronts... So.. thoughts.. Do I try and get some 20 thou shims, which will hopefully even them all out a bit more, or try pulling the tappets/pushrods and fiddling around with them again to see if I can get the combination any closer?

Oh, and yes - will get some more cling wrap and wrap the whole thing whilst I'm away, and then drizzle it some more when I get home...

Well, if it were me.....
I like the V8 Devs way of measuring preload. Does the same thing as RPI only without bits of welding wire, just by using feelers under the pedestals with pushrods free spinning.
First thing to bear in mind is that the whole point of having hydraulic tappets is that you don't have to be accurate, the tappets do that for you. As long as you stay in the range and don't either have too much free play with the tappets at full expansion, or too little with the tappets empty, they'll just do their stuff.
Anyhow, get together a set of pushrods that are as close to the same length as you can. Use the V8 Devs method of checking preload. (Pedestal gap measurement x 1.6 = Pre-load at follower).
Shim rockers with equal sized shims to suit. Job done.
If you want to get really (poss pointlessly) precise, don't forget that you can buy shim steel in A4 sheets and cut out shims with a pair of scissors and a hole punch, in 1 thou increments (from 1 to 10 thou naturally- anything bigger requires special tools) :)
Oh and by the way, if you're going to cling wrap the block, and it's in your house garage rather than workshop, let it breathe!
When are you back from next trip? I'm happy to pop up and play clearances with you

Orangebean wrote:

Marty- I've just had a look at the RPI instructions (interesting- hadn't looked at these in detail) and I think you might be introducing a "fudge factor" into your measurements, which could potentially mean that you'll find it hard to get consistently repeatable results. I've picked out the problem area in bold:
"The following information assumes that the following components are in good condition - rockers, pushrods, valve guides and valve stems. a clearance of .020" to a maximum of 0.60" must exist between the spring loaded pushrod seat in the top of the lifter, and the underside of the retaining circlip. This check should be made with the valve gear fully assembled, and the lifter empty of oil, positioned on the lowest point, on the back of the camshaft. The simplest way to measure the gap is by using round wire. Use a piece .020" for the low clearance check, and a piece of .060" for the high clearance check. Check all 16 lifters individually."
You've primed your lifters and also they're skating on a raft of assembly lube. Both of these will give a variable cushion. The RPI instructions are based around a dry build (actually a pre assembly with only a squirt of light oil on touching surfaces). I'm going to pop over to V8 Devs site and have a look at what they say and will come back in a bit...

Orangebean wrote:

Well, if it were me.....
I like the V8 Devs way of measuring preload. Does the same thing as RPI only without bits of welding wire, just by using feelers under the pedestals with pushrods free spinning.
First thing to bear in mind is that the whole point of having hydraulic tappets is that you don't have to be accurate, the tappets do that for you. As long as you stay in the range and don't either have too much free play with the tappets at full expansion, or too little with the tappets empty, they'll just do their stuff.
Anyhow, get together a set of pushrods that are as close to the same length as you can. Use the V8 Devs method of checking preload. (Pedestal gap measurement x 1.6 = Pre-load at follower).
Shim rockers with equal sized shims to suit. Job done.
If you want to get really (poss pointlessly) precise, don't forget that you can buy shim steel in A4 sheets and cut out shims with a pair of scissors and a hole punch, in 1 thou increments (from 1 to 10 thou naturally- anything bigger requires special tools) :)
Oh and by the way, if you're going to cling wrap the block, and it's in your house garage rather than workshop, let it breathe!
When are you back from next trip? I'm happy to pop up and play clearances with you

Thanks for the information - and also the offer to come up.. I'll have another look over the weekend and if I'm not happy, then I'll drop you a message and we can work something out..

Yes, I think there is somewhat of a 'fudge factor' in my readings, also from looking at the RPI instructions and about everything being dry, whereas everything in my engine is somewhat moist now...

I have actually been doing a combination of the 2 methods.. the V8 Developments method only states doing it for the number 1 cylinder, rather than every tappet/pushrod, so my method was to get the no 1 cam lobe 180deg off, and then tighten down the rocker shaft slowly. I also used feeler gauges to make sure that at the point where I was seeing the tappet piston be depressed that all the rocker pedestals were the same distance, I didn't want one end of the shaft to be not as tight as the front, otherwise that would distort the geometry aswell. Once they were all pretty close, I tweaked the front one down a nudge until it started depressing and then measured the gap with the feeler gauge. (This was also after pulling the rods/tappets and checking them for length etc)

On the LH bank (well, RH as I'm looking at it from the front - but cyls 1,3,5,7), this was 0.05" - which with the 1.6 factor, would mean my preload on the tappet would be 0.08" if it were bolted all the way down. If I were aiming for 0.04", then I would need 0.04" off the preload, which then divided by 1.6 would give a shim height of 0.025". As I have 0.015" and 0.03" shims, I opted for the 0.03" and fitted them to all the pedestals. With this done, I then went through the RPI method and turned the engine by hand so every tappet in turn was opposite the cam lobe, and then did the feeling with the welding wire feelers I have (after giving them a file so they were a bit more accurate. This is where I found that the LH bank were all pretty close to each other.

Swapping to the RH bank (LH as I'm looking at it from the front, or cyls 2,4,6,8) I did the same - turned cranks so inlet valve was closed and tappet was 180deg from lobe. Tightened shaft down slowly and measured with feeler gauge, as the tappet piston was starting to be depressed, and got a reading of 0.061" - which with 1.6 factor gave a preload of 0.976". A bit more than the other side, but again worked back and to give an ideal preload of 0.04" I would need a 0.036" shim - so again opted for the 0.03" shims.

Fitted the shims and then measured, and the front 4 valves all were pretty much bang on 0.04" when I went back and did the RPI method - but getting to the rear 4 rockers/tappets is where I found that there was no preload at all. From there I decided to swap the shims for 0.015" and now get 30-40 thou on the rear 4 and 60-70thou on the fronts...

So.. my current thought... I'm going to leave the LH bank (cyls 1,3,5,7) alone... it's close enough now, and more than likely a lot better then if I'd just chucked it together without checking the preload and hoping for the best...

BUT - on the RH Bank (cyls 2,4,6,8) - I have an option... given they are about 30thou out.. do I just leave it, and as you say - they are hydraulic tappets, so will they take up 30 thou within them when it's up and running? Or do I see about getting/making some say 20 thou shims to split the difference and at least try and even them up?

Regarding leaving it - yes, the engine is in the garage at home, rather than the workshop. Once it's finished being assembled, I'll crane it into the back of the RR to take it to the workshop and then do the swap over up there. If it's worth leaving it open to breathe, then I have a sheet or cardboard that I can leave over it to prevent anything getting into it - though it also would absorb moisture, so maybe not... I can loosely clingfilm it..

I am back from the next trip just before Christmas - I head away next week at some point, so after I've got what I can done, she'll be stored on the stand in the garage until I get home, at which point I'd like to be ready to do the final assembly, and then get it loaded up and swapped over!

Come on!!! What have you done today??

Absolutely nothing!

I've been working on a Classic Range Rover today, doing some electrical work, and wiring to add a navigation unit to it. And after my afternoon.. give me a P38 any day...

I've got to finish installing it tomorrow, troubleshoot a heated seat which isn't working, and I repaired awhile ago (I'm thinking it's the thermostat) and then try and figure out the central locking system and a door mirror not working.

If I can get through that list, then I have some more work to do for my upcoming tour etc to the US, and after that, then I might get a chance to look at the engine again...

I want to pull the rocker gear off the RH side again (the one that's all over the place) and try re-setting it again to see if I can get it any better. After that, I'll wrap it up loosely in some cling-wrap and that will be it until January when I get back home again.

I do have the rocker covers ready to unmask, and a final coat of paint to put on the sump tomorrow, as it's still a bit patchy in places. My LPG nozzles haven't arrived yet, so assuming they make an appearance on Monday, then I'll try and get that drilled/tapped/installed/masked and a coat of paint on, as it is the last piece to prep for reassembly. If I can get to a happy place with the rocker shafts etc, then that's all the 'fiddly' bits done, and the rest is then down to the assembly stage when I return.

Will hopefully have some more pretty pictures tomorrow or Monday...

So, what is probably going to be the final update before I go away for work....

After the messing around with the preloads, I think I've got it sorted - at least to a place where the 'hydraulic' part of the tappets can sort the rest out...

I pulled out the pushrods on the RH bank that was all over the place and did a crude measurement of the 8 rods, and found that 4 of them that were on the front cylinders and showing the bigger preload are a minute bit longer than the other 4 from the rear cylinders.... typical...

So I dug out my other set of 16 pushrods that I bought years ago, and succumbed to water into the box of my engine parts and got all rusted up.... luckily there were 6 of them in there which were salvageable, and after a quick polish up with a fine wire brush, look as good as new.. They also measure up at the same length as the shorter of the 4 brand new rods....

So with 8 rods of the same length I decided to try again, and refitted the 15thou shims that gave the cylinders with the shorter rods previously the correct preload.

And Success!! all of the tappets are about the same preload between 40 and 50 though. Which also bring them fairly close to the other bank aswell.

So rockers are all done, and torqued up to 28lb/ft. I'm still not sure where RPI get there 35lb/ft from... so will have to research that a bit more...

Decided to do a bit of a 'quick fit' of some of the parts to get a preview of what it'll look like when it's assembled....

All nice and shiny (Morat!) - I think it will look nice once it's all fitted together!

Bit more work to do when I get home, but hopefully it will mostly be just finishing up the assembly. With any luck the LPG nozzles will arrive tomorrow.. I don't mind paying for postage, but for what LPG shop charge to ship 8 brass nozzles and 2 plastic injector rail outlets via My Hermes (on 2-3 days... which is now closer to 5 days!) They could have been sent RM 1st class for less...

Oh well... rant over... At least the engine will be nice and shiny when finished..