Bloody cars. It wont adapt the LTFT unless its being driven either, and i cant fucking drive it without an MOT. What a stupid arse system.

Why on earth would the LTFT start at -160? That said, it was at -154 when i started, which isnt much better....

I'm still no wiser though, is +38.75 adding fuel or removing it?

As mentioned in the other thread, I fitted some new injectors as i had a feeling the old ones were broken. unfortunately i fked up the measurements, and fitted what are actually 245cc injectors instead of the original 200cc ones. Started the engine after resetting the adaptions and now it wont idle. rev it up, its fine. get it up to 3000rpm or so and the trim moves away from 38.75 and starts dropping down a bit. Drop the RPM's down and it just goes back to +38.75 and the lower the revs the worse it runs. By the time your down at 1000rpm its choking and farting and running like shit. Release the throttle pedal and it dies.

Given the injectors are too large, surely the fuel trim should be fully negative, as it should be trying to reduce the fuel...

Well its still broken. This time becuase i've cocked it up.

The injectors i swapped in i thaught were 210cc, which i figured was close enough to the required 200cc. Turns out, after looking up the actual specifications, they are 245cc. Which seems to be too large an error for the ECU to correct.

So, I found these:
https://www.fiveomotorsport.com/lucas-range-rover-gems-hotwire

Crossreffed the bosch part number here in the UK, and managed to find a set of 8, new, for less than the cost of getting the broken lucas ones cleaned.

More waiting.

Can anyone with a Nanocom or similar tell me what these engines display normally for their long term and short term fuel trim?

Can anyone also suggest what the device means by a "positive" trim?

In my mind, a positive trim = Adding fuel, but i'm not convinced thats correct given i've fitted slightly larger injectors yet the trim is jammed at 38.75 and the sensors are stuck around 1v.

Long term trim was showing at -154, which i thaught was way out of whack, so i reset the adaptions. But then it went to -160... surely reset should be 0?!

I know, hes being a bit of a cock, but hes also the most-decent MOT place around here. I've had a good few run-ins with some other places over much bigger issues (like failing the car for things that arent actually faulty...) and this guy seems fair and reliable. Last thing i want to do is cause issues for him.

And to be honest, its failing the test because its broken. Out of the four or five tests i've had it on, its only actually successfully completed one emissions test, and that was the test with the MAF unplugged that returned the 1.3% CO readings. The rest of the tests were stopped due to the car either dying, or chucking out so much unburnt fuel that the machine aborted the test.

In that state, LPG wouldnt have helped. I'm also unconvinced the LPG is actually working correctly, and would like it running properly on petrol before i start looking into the LPG issues.

yeh thats better :)

Cheers

Can we wind up the "threads per page" count? Usually its adjustable by user but this software doesnt seem to allow it. A few of the subforums have a pile of stickies at the top, which means you only see 4 or 5 threads before it reaches the end of the page. Similarly when viewing a long thread, it splits to a new page after only 10 posts which seems somewhat short...

yeh, i guess i'm going to have one last go with this place and see if i can get it thru the test. Looking at whats been happening, the High CO figures from above were due to the MAF being disconnected. The last test got aborted due to missfiring, which i presume was due to the fouled plugs. I'm hoping now, with fresh plugs, and hopefully non-leaky injectors, it'll pass.

If it was consistently failing with the same results, i'd be a bit annoyed, but every time its gone in, something different has happened.

If it fails again, i guess i'll need to find somewhere else that will let me test it on LPG. Which reminds me i need to buy some LPG hose, as i found a few melted bits that needs sorting.

yeh it'll warm up just fine, i just didnt finish putting it together. Need to fit the MAF/intake pipework and some other minor bits.

I'm going to try again to get an MOT on it now i've changed all those bits, as even if i'm going to have to pull the engine to bits, its FAR easier trying to diagnose things when you can actually drive the bloody thing on the road!

the sheilds on mine are burnt on the passenger side and the driverside one is completely missing.

I think if the engines throwing unburnt fuel into the cat, the cat can get REALLY hot.

Nah the battery was really low by the end, and i didnt want to abuse it more than i already had. My chargers a bit puny and it had only been charging for a couple of hours from dead flat, so not really a huge amount in it. Leaving it on overnight to fully charge.

Will need to try it again with a shot of oil in the cylinder once the battery has some charge in it! Is it worthwhile doing the test on a hot engine?

So found my compression tester and some free time, went out to test it and found the battery completely flat. Doors wouldnt even unlock... Great.

Stuck it on the charger and instead tackled some other bits. Stripped the intake off and removed the injectors. Swapped in my spare Audi injectors and refitted the fuel rail. Also removed and inspected the ignition coil, and discovered that it looked somewhat melted. Almost like it had been on fire! rather odd! It seems to be working fine, but something i probably want to change at some point. Reinstalled the middle inlet manifold and figured the battery might have enough juice in it now as doing the injectors took feckin ages.

So got the compression tester on the go, i started at cylinder 8, as that was the oiliest and got these results:

8: 11 bar
6: 8.5 bar
4: 13 bar
2: 13 bar
1: 13 bar
3: 12 bar
5: 11.5 bar
7: 11.5 bar

The battery was getting a bit weak towards the end, so i suspect the last three cylinders would probably have managed closer to 13 had the battery been fully charged. However clearly something odd going on with 8 and 6, those two cylinders are the one that are fouling the plugs up with oilyming too.

Reassembled the inlet manifold, and gave it an oil change then managed to get the two lambdas swapped out for new ones. Not fired it up yet though.

aye fair enough, i'll have a close look at the LPG layout. Will take a pic of the injector points. Its been on there for over 10 years though. There was a note at the last LPG service saying one bank of injectors wasnt working properly and they'd need replaced "when the vehicle became undrivable" ffs.

I've been reading a bit about the TVR guys replacing their Lucas ERR722 injectors with some Bosch Gen2 200cc injectors from a Mustang, which are supposedly much better than the lucas ones. As it happens, i have 12 210cc Bosch Gen2 injectors in my shed from various Audi 1.8T engines i've stripped for parts. Think i'll give them a clean and swap them in, rule out dodgy injectors.

I will try to sort out a compression test. I think i have a tester somewhere!

This is been running on petrol so it shouldnt be a gas/injector issue.

I'm in Fife, Scotland.

ok, faught rediculous winds and pulled the spark plugs out just now. Certainly something odd going on!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/azls39kcog9xjx4/2016-09-27%2017.45.00.jpg?dl=0

These plugs were new, probably less than 10 miles ago. Albeit most of that distance done with what would seem to have been a fualty MAF sensor.

The odd bit, is they're all quite different.

Starting with bank1 they all look "okish" with the caveat that 5 and 7 both have soot covering exactly half of their plug ceramic.
Bank 2 is where it gets all weird. Cylinder 2, is the same as bank 1. Cylinder 3 is dark and sooty. Cylinder 5 is darker and sootier, plus also looks oily. Cylinder 7 is VERY sooty and oily with weird deposits on it (i presume burnt oil).

Thoughts? I'm thinking perhaps faulty injectors, and/or some sort of mechanical issue? The oil could simply be valve stem seals, or something worse.

Theres a note in the history from the last LPG service (5 years ago...) about a fault with one of the LPG injectors "fluttering", but seems it was passed over with an "ignore it until it gets worse" type comment.

When running on petrol the short term trims look sensible enough. Switch to LPG and one bank goes to -25% and the other bank to +25% and it just sits there... Certainly not happy! In my mind, if i know its running properly on petrol, and the readings etc can be trusted, then i know i can trust the info to sort out the LPG issues.

I've noticed that even on petrol the short term trims are perhaps acting oddly, at idle one bank shows mildly positive, and the other bank is slightly more negative. Not a huge amount though. say -5% and +3%. However if you raise the engine RPM's, it seems to get wider. at 3000rpm, the positive bank has increased to maybe +9% and the negative bank is at -11%ish.

I've ordered a pair of new lambdas for it. Also thinking about pulling the fuel injectors and having them cleaned. I'm also going to re-check the spark plugs condition, and pull the ignition coils out and ensure they've not "burst".

Getting pissed off with this bloody car now!

Took it in today for another emissions test having replaced the MAF sensor. Looking with Torque, the STFT's are within a normal range (they looked a bit wonky with the old MAF)

He said "its getting better" but couldnt give me a print out, as apparently the machine "choked" and couldnt complete the test. I asked what the numbers were, and all he could tell me was 0.35% CO, then the machine choked out and aborted the test. I asked what would cause it to choke, and he said usually missfiring or overfuelling. Hmmph. I've sat revving it on the drive way and cant detect any hint of overfuelling or missfiring. the exhaust smells clean and not rich etc etc.

Not sure what to do now? Do i stick some new lambdas in it? anybody got any ideas?

Oh, and i asked them to test it on LPG, and they refused saying LPG messes their machine up or some nonsense. Not sure that would help anyway as the STFT's on LPG are all over the shop, clearly the LPG system needs some TLC. Yes, i could go somewhere else, but clearly, the car should be able to pass a petrol emissions test, and the other MOT places in the area are worse than this place.

fair enough, thats good to know. Clearly i want to fix it "properly", but not being able to properly test drive it gets quite annoying and makes it difficult to figure out whats going on.

I think the cats are fine, as otherwise it wouldnt have managed the 0.16% CO at tickover. Typically a decatted car will run around 0.5%. Its usually impossible to get below the 0.3% cat limit without actually having a cat.

I'll get this MAF swapped out (ordered a genuine used one from ebay) and see what happens. If its still being a shit, i'll tell them to switch it onto gas and run the test on that just to get it thru while i figure out whats going on.

Hmm didnt know that about LPG? I've been running it on petrol because i'm not sure the LPG works properly, and common wisdom seems to be to get things working right on petrol before trying to get LPG working. It needs fixed either way, as it clearly should be perfectly capable of passing the test!

Can you find me a definitive source for those readings? I've looked in the MOT manual and it doesnt mention different limits for LPG systems, only reference it makes is that hydrocarbon limits on LPG need to be converted to account for propane vs hexane.

Orangebean, yeh i realise its a generic reader, but lambda on bank one cycles nicely between ~0.2 and 1v, the other bank is just stuck at 1v, but only while revving it at 2500rpm. Drop to idle and they both drop to 0.2v and the STFTs swing from -10 and -25 to +3-4ish and then start switching normally. So the readings make some sense.

I've realised since posting above that i've put it in for the bloody emissions test without the MAF connected. I mustve forgotten to connect it this morning :( However i plugged it in and it wouldnt run at all, so there would defo seem to be something up with the MAF.

Ok just took it for its MOT test again.

Failed on emissions. YEY!

1st Fast idle was 1.51% CO, but with 69ppm HC and lambda at 0.976 - FAIL on CO

2nd Fast Idle was 1.22% CO, but with 53ppm HC and lambda at 0.982 - FAIL on CO

Natural Idle Test was 0.16% - PASS.

So its running fine at idle, but getting rich with revs, which does suggest to me a MAF problem?

Looking at the STFT's on Torque, at idle the STFTs are both slightly positive, 5-6%, however at 2500rpm, bank one drops to -10% (with its lambda switching sensibly), and bank 2 drops to -25% (with its lambda stuck at 1v) So perhaps a bank 2 lambda issue?

Bank 2 lambda does switch normally at idle though...

yeh, the problem i have is that the pre-97 cars have a flat plate welded to the axle case, which the flexi bracket attaches to. My axle doesnt have that plate, so i'm assuming someones fitted a later axle at some point for whatever reason.

If i retain the early system, i need to fabricate a mounting platform on the axle case. If i switch to the later system i need to fabricate some mounting brackets on the chassis to accept the later pipes.

Just trying to figure out which method will be easier in terms of access etc.