FWIW the police engine with issues is the N57, the M57 is the previous generation and seems much more robust. The N series diesels are pretty crap, the 4 cylinder being renowned for eating its timing chains. Certainly one to avoid.
The whole police thing is weird, because they stopped making the N57 in 2015/2016, thus at this point they'd naturally be getting cycled out of the fleet anyway. BMW also appear to be the ones to pull the plug, rather than the police refusing to buy them. As with anything theres probably more complexity than portrayed in the media.
Isnt the "porus block" just another name for the cracking-behind-the-liners issue that they all seem to eventually suffer from?
StrangeRover wrote:
You can build a rover v8 to over 300hp with a mountain of torque to go with it..
Maybe i drive like a granny but i've never found the stock 4.6 lacking in punch, unless it has no compression and the proverbial cam that has had the lumps lathed off it..
Mine feels lacking down low, but if you get it in sport mode and right up the rpm's it moves along just fine (though it doesnt sound particularly great up there). And thats an engine thats evidently pretty worn out. I'm sure a fresh 4.6 with a mild cam and say ~240-250hp would be perfectly fine. Its not a sports car after all.
The problem is more that you'll put thousands into a Rover V8 to get it to that state, and its not like its then suddenly reliable. Its still the same engine with many flaws, its just a fresh one. Thats the bit that i'm wary of. Furthermore its been indicated that getting hold of certain parts is difficult. For example finding high quality rockers and shafts seems like a complete minefield. Lifiters are similar though a few companies do seem to make decent ones, you pay the price for that. I've seen folk with freshly built engines wipe a camshaft out in a 100miles just down to bad luck. My own car had a full engine replacement by land rover at 6 years old, so even the factory bits werent great. Its also a fairly inefficient design meaning higher fuel consumption than a modern engine would achieve.
You can pull a 20 year old M57 out of a scrap E39 and pretty much know it'll just work. It might want a new turbo at some point, but the actual engine is solid. And the same goes for most modern engines. Thus the question, do you spend the time/money making a good Rover V8, or do you instead spend it making some other more reliable modern engine fit instead.
I'm wanting to eyeball up a gearbox adaptor as per the chat in the other thread.
Shipping the whole thing will be dear, but if you could remove the rear extension housing and output shaft and chuck em in a box that would be excellent, i could send some beer tokens for your time and ofcourse cover the shipping costs.
Will drop you a message :)
If anyone happens to have a transfer case let me know!
Does anyone happen to have a scrap transfer case or gearbox knocking around they'd be willing to part with?
There is no LPG exemption for ULEZ. Some reports that 4.0 Thor cars have sufficiently low NOx figures to be allowed in anyway.
Scottish ULEZ has a 30 year cutoff though, so my old barge will be allowed in next year regardless.
85L of LPG is 18.7 gallons.
200miles / 18.7 gallons is 10.6 MPG
220miles / 18.7 gallons is 11.7 MPG
Yeah i see what you mean, i think you'd really want to run the original BMW M62 ECU, theres probably enough subtle sensor differences (and likely some larger ones, like ignition timing and cam position sensors) that would mean trying to run an M62 on a Thor ECU wouldnt produce a great result. The BMW V8 also has VVT and electronic throttle, and while its Motronic, its a newer version.
Wether the BMW ECU produces CAN messages that the ZF 4HP is happy with is anyones guess, and its likely it'll want different shift points etc anyway.
I dont know if the bellhousings and torque converters are swappable between 4HP and 5HP. Most of the later ZF boxes have cast-in bellhousings. A quick google search doesnt find much suggesting they probably arent the same.
This is the beauty of what the Defender guys are doing with the M57. You get the engine and box from an X5 (or other 4wd BMW), pop the LT230 on the back with the adaptor kit and the entire engine/box runs with its original factory programming.
Interfacing with a P38 is likely to be fairly easy, the electronics on these old things are actually fairly simple and well understood at this point. The BECM looks complicated, but really its all simple analog signals for the most part.
Yeah, when i said "kseal" i guess i just meant it as a generic term for "headgasket in a bottle".
As for the BMW engine, getting the electronics of the M62 running is something i'd be quite happy dealing with. I do love getting into the nitty gritty of a wiring diagram.
The tricky part for me are the mechanical bits. You either need to adapt the M62 to the existing ZF box or somehow make the original or some other gearbox work. Adapting to the existing box also likely means you end up needing compushift or similar, as the factory program is unlikely to match up well enough, and if its wrong you'll wreck the box in no time, as the box uses throttle inputs to lookup engine torque and set line pressures accordingly. If its wrong the clutches will slip and the box will expire.
I've actually spent a lot of time recently looking into the ZF 8HP series boxes. Some clever folks have worked out excellent aftermarket control over those gearboxes, and theres a huge range of conversion kits available to connect the ZF 8HP to all sorts of engines. The boxes are extremely strong and also pretty cheap in the aftermarket as they basically dont fail.
Theres even parts available to connect the 8HP to an LT230, but ofcourse nothing for the P38 transfer case.
Theres also stuff like sump clearance that you can run into with engine conversions.
Some years back i had an Audi 4.2L V8 sat in the front of a defender, I had drawings to mate the audi engine to the R380 etc but the issue that eventually pushed it over the edge was the sump clearance to the front diff/axle. The Audi motor had a front sump bowl, and the oil pump was hanging down inside that bowl. There was no easy way to move the pump and it was clashing hard with the front diff. I could have probably bodged it by raising the engine or installing bigger bump stops but thats not really the result i was going for.
My tank is labelled 92L in the spare wheel well.
Oddly it routinely takes well in excess of 80 litres at most pumps. I usually stop somewhere around 85L myself. I've had on a few occasions the pump cut out around 65-70L, but the vast majority of the time i have to stop manually.
That much gas gets me around 200-220miles, which seems fairly poor given some of the other folks results, circa 11mpg.
Its not done the weird cranking thing again, there does seem to be a slow loss of coolant though. Used it a few times over the weekend, and other than the residual pressure everything seems "fine".
Geh, been looking at engine swaps but nothing "easy" exists. M57 has been done, but the only option seems to be to use the early iron block with the ZF 4 speed. I really dont want to go diesel, but if i did i'd want to use the later ally engine with the ZF6 speed box. Unfortunately the adaptors for that only work with the LT230.
A 4.8 or 5.3 LS would be nice (though they are ridiculously expensive in the UK), but again we either adapt to the ZF4 which seems marginal behind such an engine, or we go 4L60E but again the only adaptors that exist are for the LT230.
I guess the "obvious" option is going top hat liners etc. My reluctance is spending what amounts to be a few grand and ending up with something that still is a somewhat flawed engine that doesnt make that much power.
I guess short term, chuck some KSeal in it and see what happens, if it works, great, if it doesnt then i'll just continue driving it and hope it stays in one piece.
Overall its a bit conflicted.
My hope was fix the Range so i can do some more extensive work on the wifes A4 that i've been putting off for some years, but currently i dont trust it enough to assume it'll be safe for her to use full time while i get the A4 sorted out. Murphys law will ensure that if i go ahead with the A4 work the Range will expire immediately. 🤣
Hmm yeah, maybe i need to try something like that, unfortunately i use(d) long life coolant in the engine as i have a large drum of it and it would appear that the SteelSeal stuff is incompatible with long life coolants. If i go that route i'm gonna have to flush everything out and refill with standard coolant.Probably in excess of £100 by the time i've bought the coolant and the steel seal stuff.
Another additional anecdote from this morning. It was last driven yesterday for a short trip down the shops. Jumped in and went to start it. The engine cranked over once slowly, then paused, then reluctantly cranked over again and then fired up. It then proceeded to produce james bond spec smokescreen all the way to the top of the street. A good 300meters of smoke/steam that completely filled the road behind. Once out on the main road it cleared and drove fine.
Its evidently not happy!
I'm guessing the reluctance to crank was due to water in the cylinder(s)...?
yeah exactly my thoughts... I would expect pressure when its running, but it should go away when its cooled down.
So pressure when cold suggests compression is getting in.
Fairly sure its not airlocked, it took over 10L of coolant and runs nicely upto operating temp and sits there.
I'm going to T in a pressure gauge and see if i can see whats going on.
Seemed to be still using a fair amount of coolant until i noticed it was all over the side step, the hose into the coolant bottle wasnt clamped up properly. Fixed that and i've done another 50 or so miles in it, and its now much better, however i'm noticing there is still some pressure in the cooling system after a drive.
For instance i topped it off on sunday morning, the wife drove it to work and back yesterday and this morning i've just checked it again, and opening the tank made a big "tishhhh" noise. Water level has dropped a very small amount, maybe a few milimeters below the line.
The better condition cars are likely to be younger models too which adds futher complexity. I will bear that in mind when looking.
yeah exactly, I'd much rather it wasnt there. Just pondering future options, my shell is pretty rusty. So wondering if its worthwhile trying to find a tidier car, perhaps with mechanical issues, and potentially swap the good bits over. If i was gonna do that, i think it'd have to be a non-sunroof car. But having perused ebay a little, it seems finding one without a sunroof is rare, and they are almost always lower spec cars, eg manual 4.0/2.5's
Finally got it completed on Saturday. Well mostly.
Dug out my new and old coolant hoses and spent some time swapping those onto the thermostat. Lots of time spend fighting with the constant tension clamps as the new hoses were thicker than the old ones and a few of the clamps simply werent large enough. Fitted a new water pump as the old one was wobbly.
Dismantled the dashboard to get at the heater core o rings and installed some nice fresh Viton 22x2.5 o-rings. Spent some time trying to fix the hacked up ducting as someone has cut the horizontal duct that leads to the drivers face vent. Broke the end of the dashboard in the process, but the ducting is now very neatly taped back together.
With that done i finished up the engine bay coolant lines (left the LPG stuff out for now) and fitted the replacement serpentine belt and filled it up with coolant. Fought with the fan shroud but eventually persuaded the thermostat into the small slot. I havent refitted the fan yet.
With everything done i popped the grille back on and took it out for a short drive. Everything seems to work. No pressure in the cooling system after it cooled down. Coolant level dropped a bit but i'm assuming its just working the air out the system. Topped it off and done another slightly longer drive to screwfix on sunday morning. I think the engine actually sounds quieter, there was a tickyness previously which has gone (perhaps the exhaust manifolds?). It doesnt feel any peppier than previously and still sounds fairly harsh at high RPM's, i presume mainly down to the camshaft and chain.
So i guess now i need to put some more miles on it and try to get a feel for whether or not the cylinder liners are leaking. I want to re-do the coolant pipework for the LPG system so i'm going to order some 10mm hose and will plumb that in and get that back up and running at some point, but for now it can stay on petrol until i get those bits sorted. And i need to refit the fan at some point, dislike those things so i quietly ignored it for now. I also need to reinstall the manifold heatsheilds. If the coolant issues seem to be fixed then i guess the next step is ordering a camshaft and associated bits.
Was there a particular spec of car that did NOT have a sunroof? Was it simply an option?
From what i can see it seems to be low spec cars that were missing it? Would be good to confirm though.
Those seals are leaking on mine, and have already been replaced a couple times... I suspect the balljoint alignment is out, but it needs special tools to set it up, so its just been ignored.
cant find it on their current site, but their old site had an FAQ and one of the first questions was loss of forward drive:
Failed A clutch, seems a common failure point.
Theres also the possibility of an inverted sprag clutch, in which case it'll pull away in "1" but not D.
Still chugging away at this, thought i'd post a bit of an update. Things have been slow due to the awful weather we've had.
Heads went back on a couple weeks ago. Put the valve train together and then spun the engine over on the starter until i could see oil appearing out the rocker shafts. Noticed a few of the lifters werent spinning that well, though it did seem to improve once the oil pressure came up. Clearly, it needs a cam, but the main point now is to figure out if the rest of the engines worth fitting a cam to!
Last weekend i started on the exhaust manifolds. All the downpipe studs were ruined and snapped off trying to get them out. Ended up drilling them all out, and welding in bolts to act as a stud instead. Welded up a small hairline crack on the nearside manifold collector. The offside manifold had a split flexi so i bought another manifold from ebay (also with ruined studs) and gave it the same treatment. Bought a set of new bolts (3/8" UNC Zinc plated cap heads) along with spring and flat washers. After what felt like two whole days of messing about i finally had two usable manifolds attached to the engine. Tightening up the offside manifold lower bolts was somewhat awkward, i ended up cutting a 5/16" allen key, and using that with a ring spanner over the end to tighten them. getting a ratchet in was impossible for the rear two (at least without removing the steering shaft). NO idea why they didnt just move the engine over an inch in the bay...
Yesterday i finally got the intake reinstalled. Repinned the crank sensor plug into a new housing, the old one was cracked and held on with zip ties. Got all the wiring back together for the EFI, installed spark plugs (although realised i only had 6 new ones, so stuck two old ones in for now). Attached the alternator bracket for engine earth, then decided to see if it would fire... Lit streight off first turn, at which point i realised i hadnt bolted the downpipes on 😂. It also died after a few seconds. Intake had various vacuum hoses not fitted (EVAP, fuel pressure reg, LPG) and the throttle cable wasnt attached. Sorted all that out and fired it up again, and it sounded fine and settled into a 1000rpm idle. Didnt leave it running as theres no coolant in it, but at least it works!
Then i went indoors onto ebay and ordered more spark plugs, a serpentine belt (the shorter non-AC one, will leave the AC bits off for now), a coolant hose set to replace the hoses that have gotten deformed from the engine pressure and an air filter. I also discovered the water pump pulley was wobbly, so i ordered a water pump while i was there. So much for not spending money on it until i'm sure its good...
Still need to reinstall all of the cooling system. I also need to get inside the cab and do the heater core o-rings. Maybe next weekend it'll drive around the block!