I'd be a 'plus one' on this too. Either a 'careful' DIY, or sending the cluster down.

Clive603 wrote:

Allegedly the dimensions are out on t'net somewhere but darned if I can find them.
Picture of a home made one comes up fairly easily, usually with associated comments about sizes and promises to post them but ...

Clive

As I've damaged the collets with the grinder while removing the steering knuckle, I've found myself doing the same run around today, trying to find these sizes...reading the same promises to post them.... and they're still not there!

My idea is a two piece thing - but not as elegant as what's been suggested in Clive's other post. First piece - simply a wooden shaft, turned to fit into the axle. My thinking is that it would need to fit a decent way into the axle to give a better alignment. This would also be long enough to extend out beyond the steering knuckle.

Second piece would essentially be a disc, turned to be the same diameter as the knuckle/carrier aperture (where the driveshaft and hub fits) with a hole in the middle precisely large enough to slide over the shaft piece.

Shaft goes into the axle; disc gets fitted on; and then slots into the knuckle only when the alignment is correct. I believe this is roughly the principle of the proper £1000 tool. For others who have successfuly done this job, does that two-piece idea sound like it should work?

So, while I could measure the hole in the knuckle casing easy enough, I don't have the internal dimensions of the axle casing yet.

As I'll be away on hols for a fortnight from this weekend, now would be an ideal time to get stuff ordered, or even to get something like this machined up locally.

So does anyone now have any further idea of the dimensions, or are they still just 'out there somewhere'?

Many thanks

(Edit - I reckon the axle aperture is 45mm diameter in the narrower section just behind the seal. Now just need to tidy up the knuckle/carrier hole to get a good measurement off that.)

Nice! thanks for taking the time to post the pics anyway - it's very useful to see a 'real world' example and not something the marketing dept has created.

I might actually consider that for the carriers/knuckles themselves, as they are portable and could be put in a bucket.

The question about rinsing, for me, concerned the actual axle casing and the ball joint 'yoke'. I couldn't leave that to soak in solution - without a lot more work, and a much bigger bucket! There's a lot of rust there, on the casing; around the air spring mounts; around the radius arm mounts etc. It's nothing structural, but I don't want it to get any worse, and it'll never be easier to treat than it is now, with everything to stripped back.

Perhaps I'll use a 'converter' there, and the bilt hamber stuff on the knuckles.

(Edit - you know what? I've just taken a closer look at that Deox stuff, and I've ordered a 1Kg bottle. If I don't use it here, I'm sure I'll use it again at some point. Looks like really good stuff.)

Thanks again guys,

I decided to go for genuine/breakers sensors, so they're on their way. £30 the pair, so fingers crossed.

On the rust remover question, I did look at that sort of product but decided it would make too much of a mess - unless I've understood it wrong? Do you need to wash/rinse the stuff off afterwards?

I've already orderd this stuff: fe123 on the basis of another recommendation, and because I've used similar before. Given that I'm not trying to do a full restoration here I'm hoping it will be better than the rust, and provide a little more longevity.

And finally.....yay! I spent another hour or so in the garage when I came home and managed to get the O/S ball joints out, and the remnants of the tapers out of the carrier/knuckle itself.

So that's more or less the (front) stripdown finished barring:

1. the old axle oil seals (leaving these in until I'm ready to put the new ones in - so I have a visual reference);
2. removing the old panhard rod bushes, and;
3. disconnecting the calipers and flexi hoses.

Next job will be attacking the worst of the loose/flaky rust before the rust converter comes up the road. But at least now I can go on holiday in the knowledge that I'm nearing the fun bit of rebuilding.

Thanks gents,

I knew from the preview that something was wrong with the images - so a double thanks for that. I must have done the first one right just by coincidence.

There actually was a split boot on that ball joint before, I just cut it away to stop it interfering with my attempts to split the taper. I knew it was a one-way trip anyway!

Thanks also for the replies about the sensors - that does make things a little easier.

New alignment collets required??

Managed to upload some pics of yesterday’s fun and games.

Overall score:
Ups – several I think;
Downs – maybe 4 (2 of which were entirely self-inflicted).

Armed with my new ball joint splitter it was time to dismantle the front steering knuckle assemblies.

I’d been soaking the hub bolts, and the hub to knuckle join in loosening oil for a few days, and when the time came the whole thing came out relatively easily – a combination of thumping a reversed brake disc, and a punch on the bolts themselves. I didn’t get any pictures of this bit – too busy with the lump hammer.

Unfortunately, as I said in the post above, the ABS sensors were in no mood to come out easily. Uh uh, no way. I am assuming they’ve been in there since the car rolled off the production line in 2000:

So the next step – getting this off the axle:

The ball joints were pretty stuck:

The nuts shifted, but there’s plenty of rust in there. And my ‘scissor splitter’ doesn’t open wide enough to include the housing and the nut, so the big grinder came out – top and bottom:

I count that as an ‘up’ that I managed to get the knuckle off OK. Then used my new ball joint splitter to take out the N/S top and bottom ball joints. I wouldn’t say they were an ‘easy’ shift, but they did come out: (this wasn’t how I successfully used the press on the lower one)

End result:

Pretty happy to have got to this stage. I now plan to brush off and degrease much of this, and the knuckle housing itself before treating it to some ‘rust converter’.

I then moved onto the O/S. More or less the same – stuck ABS sensor; few whacks with the hammer and the driveshaft was out; grinder onto the ball joint tapers. I haven’t tackled those balljoints yet. I’m optimistic based on the N/S experience, but if anything these are even more crusty than those were.

Forgot to mention the 'downs' - one is having to buy new ABS sensors; the other is that both steering stop bolts just snapped off in the housing :-( I'm thinking of just drilling a 10mm hole through both and putting in an M12 bolt. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't do as good a job.

So – two questions:
The first is just to carry forward the one from the post above – the decision between aftermarket and OEM ABS sensors – any views?
The second is that, in having to grind off the ball joints I did take away a little of where the height adjustment collets come through:

I’m guessing it’s this side of the knuckle/collet that actually makes the adjustment; lifting the hub assembly up into alignment? In which case I’ll need to use new collets and have a stab at the alignment?

Might manage to tackle the last two ball joints at some point this week, but after that it’s a two week holiday, so the car can rest on its axle stands just a little longer…….

Hi guys,
Managed to spend some more time on this today. I'll leave all the details and some other questions till I get a chance to post pics tomorrow, but I wanted to ask about ABS sensors as I'll need to order a pair. They did indeed put up a fight. Probably in there for 20 years. WSM said "prise out with a suitable lever"..... eh, no. Not a chance.

On a quick google (STC2786?) there's quite a difference in price from 'Allmakes' at about £20-ish, up to £110-120 for more OEM type. That's quite a jump and seemingly nothing in between. As I'll need two, buying OEM would be a significant expense.

Are these the kind of things where aftermarket works, or could I even look to get a set from a breaker and just buy the new copper bushes?

Thanks

(Edit - since posting this I've googled a lot more, and got a kind of predictable 'buy OEM/genuine' sort of consensus, with a few 'I bought cheaper ones, and they've been fine' comments thrown into the mix. It would be no surprise if the same thing was reflected here. I'll see what responses might come before making a decision. It's an odd one because experience tells me it's possible to take a calculated risk on a 'mechanical' pattern part. It might not last so long or whatever, but you'll usually get some use out of it. With something like this it might just not work straight out of the box and throw up error codes.....)

Thanks Clive,

"moderate verbal encouragement"...! I may not have all the tools, or an engineering workshop but I think I'm pretty well qualified on the 'verbal encouragement' side of things..... I'm sometimes amazed that the neighbours haven't brought the police round and had an ASBO slapped on me..... maybe I'll get better as I get older.... though there's not much sign of that working yet.

Just for fun I looked at the cost of hydraulic splitters - even on a big sale they're near £300. To be honest, I can't really see myself doing this job more than once, so that's just not feasible. I'll hope for the best that the C clamp will work, along with some well-chosen sweary words.

Just back on this alignment question. Paying ca £900 for a special tool is clearly out, but having looked at some pictures of it, is just looks like a metal disc, of a size/diameter to match the hub; coupled with a longer shaft to slot into the axle casing; and a handle to 'wiggle it about'. Unless it actually does something more that's not obvious from the pics.

Not having an engineering workshop, I can't rustle up a metal or delrin example, but I'm pretty sure I could make a wooden one if needed - clearly it would just be a way of giving a better visual sense of the alignment?

Like I said a couple of posts above, I'm probably over-thinking this at this stage. I just need to get on with it, and see which problems do present themselves. I was looking at hub carriers/steering knuckles on ebay though - just to get a sense of what my last resort options might be. Clearly doing that would likely lead to alignment questions - hence my wondering about a wooden alignment thingy....

TBH I struggled with this just recently, trying it for the first time.

I opened an account with imgur - free and seemingly well-regarded - and uploaded some photos there.

Then, when writing the post, and wanting to add a particular photo:
1) go to 'imgur' (or wherever)
2) click on the photo you want
3) it should give you a set of 5 or 6 links on the right hand side.
4) copy the 'direct link' one
5) come back to your post on the 'Pub'
6) click on the little photo icon in the 'edit bar' above the text box
7) paste the photo link in there...
8) I was then deleting the wording which said 'describe your photo' - or something like that, because it's usually obvious from the text.
9) do a 'preview' of the post just to check it's the right photo and that it's worked.

Hopefully that will work - but maybe others more experienced will jump in. It did take me a little trial and error.

Donald

Thanks Marty.
I'm amassing quite the pile of bits now... or at least I will have when all the couriers manage to deliver them.

I did decide to do what you've suggested and have ordered a new set of discs, partly so that I have something bigger to thump with the hammer.

A 4ft breaker bar....?! eek! I can see myself using a length of pipe on the 1/2 bar if it comes to that. Or maybe breaking out the 3/4 drive bar which I bought once to do the rear hub nuts on the VW camper. It also reminds me of one of my earliest mechanic-ing memories; trying to undo the flywheel nut on an old mini. The only tube I had to hand was the top half of my younger brother's 'swingball' toy. A mate standing by was in stitches laughing at me fighting with the nut while batting away a tennis ball on a bit of string from around my head!

I think one of my concerns is indeed splitting the knuckle from the tapers. I have a decent scissor ball joint splitter (not the big fella that's coming in the post) but I worry that in hammering that into place I might damage the collet?

I'll have a much better sense of it all once I start tackling it though. Not going to happen till next weekend now as I've just had a last minute chance to join a 4x4 "safari" around the Highlands next week - which means some last minute tinkering with the Defender this weekend..... At least leaving it that little bit longer means all the parts will have arrived, and the plusgas will have had more time to work.

Thanks very much. That makes sense - I'll give that a go. I have a decent selection of punches so I should be able to find one that's hefty enough, and allow me to hit the bolt head and not everything else in the vicinity.

Since posting the questions I've been reading up on this job, and come across some horror stories - ball joints that need to be attacked with a grinder; steering knuckles stuck onto the ball joint tapers; poor alignment leading to oil leaks.....

So, the only sensible approach is just to wait for the tools and parts to arrive and then just to get on with it - leaving the questions until they arise...... or hopefully not!

Evening all,
I've been making up a parts list for the job to pull the hubs and driveshafts ( going to try and remove them as one unit ) so that I can do the knuckle ball joints.

This means I have more questions I'm afraid....

1. The ABS sensor - is this supposed to just pull out, and would it just fit into the same place? Or should I order the sensor adapter and bush?

2. Lower balljoint - th workshop manual talks of adjusting the collet to lift or lower the knuckle into alignment using a special tool. Does this mean I should order new collets, and is there another non-special-tool way of aligning the hub and axle??

I'm expecting it to be a "little difficult" to separate the hub from the knuckle. I have got both discs off now, and I've been soaking the bolts and the join between the parts in plusgas/wd40. I read the tip about bolting on an old brake disc the wrong way around to apply some persuasion. But I don't have old discs to hand - the ones that have come off, even the hot one, look good enough to go back on so I don't want to abuse them this way. Any other tips and tricks?

Thanks as always.

^^ Thanks for both of those posts.

The ABS sensor wire is being pulled out of place in that photo - I had the caliper resting on the floor in front of the axle, and that's pulling it. Will be sorted!

Thanks for the link to the clips. If I'm now into the place where I'll be doing those balljoints then for all the cost of the clips themselves it would make sense to get a few into 'stock'.

Right - got you now. I obviously haven't looked at it closely enough.

In which case they are both definitely too loose. The issue then is finding some sort of clip with a low enough profile not to foul the steering housing or the ball joints. Sorted - I'll have a look about. The tie wrap that's on has been fouling something, which has probably led to it loosening.

Ta

Thanks guys;

Clive - I think I follow what you're saying but I imagine you have a better toybox than I do!! I already have various pullers and splitters. The most robust would be the two-armed job for pulling the drop arm off the Defender steering box. I certainly wouldn't be able to make up something able to handle the pressures which would probably be required. Massive G clamp it's going to have to be.

Richard - I'd also figured out that someone's been there before because I was checking out prices for driveshafts and looking at the pics. At those prices, I'll be sticking with the ones that are on the car. I had noticed that the locking block on the tie wraps used had been worn away, so I'll see if I can investigate another lower profile option. Just to be sure - the boot is meant to be "fixed" to the driveshaft at the narrower, axle end; and to 'spin' around the larger, hub end?

Thanks both....

Chris - I appreciate the offer of a talk through. I've been considering this remover set. What do you think? https://fourby.co.uk/epages/950004277.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950004277/Products/BJS001
Do you use this sort of thing?

Gilbertd wrote:

1. The air springs start off thinner but get fatter with time due to being full of air that supports the weight of the car, so yes, they are correct.

• Excellent. I was hoping it was something like that. In which case they were a useful bargain as opposed to a slightly expensive mistake

1. If there's no up and down movement they are fine. The rubber gaiters often split if a car has been left standing. The end sticks to the swivel so as soon as you turn the steering it rips the gaiter. Unfortunately an MoT fail (unless you get the Superglue out and un-split it.....).

• Ah, the old MOT fail trick.... Ho hum. An excuse to buy another tool and spend some more quality time in the garage!

1. The CV joint gaiters don't turn, or they do but both ends do along with the drive shaft. If it doesn't fall off and let all the grease out, it's fine. If it really worries you replace the clip.

• That's kind of what I meant, so the inner/narrower one stays attached to the driveshaft, and the bigger one spins around on the hub. You mention a clip - mine have a zip-tie/tie-wrap on there. They don't seem to be leaking, but I'll maybe look at what the clip should be, or replace the tie-wrap.

1. The bushes were put on wrong when they were put in the box. Yes, the cone end does go towards each other and the washers go the other way up so the convex side is against the rubber bushes.
   • It just goes to show. In an earlier life I'd just have taken them out of the box and stuck them on like that.

What amazes me is the amount of rust, normally everything is all black and oily from the Land Rover built in chassis lubrication system (aka front oil seal, rocker cover gaskets and anywhere else the engine can leak from). Those steering ball joints should never have passed an MoT in that state, they are well knackered......

There are oil leaks, but not massively. It doesn't mark its spot the way the Defender used to. I suspect it might have been steam cleaned fairly recently.

I guess I know now not to put too much store in that MOT, and perhaps to expect some more nasty surprises when I start to look at the back end.

On the plus-side I really am looking forward to having a 'sorted' P38 to play with, and not something loose and wallowy.

(Edit - text and list formatting on an ipad.... not so good)

Gilbertd wrote:

Looks like the end of a radius arm to me.....

Ha! Yes indeed. But a Defender one.... I was just trying to get the whole pics thing to work. Not so intuitive really. That pic comes with its own question - I've been surprised that the P38 radius arms seem to have so much room in between the axle brackets, in comparison with a Defender.

I'd meant to post two pics side by side... but that's for another day.

(well... that took a bit of trial and error... but this is what I'd meant to post at the beginning!)

Evening all!

I had a day off work today, so was able to press on with stripping down the front suspension and steering. My plan (pretty basic plan!) is to do the front first, then the back. It’s easier on me, my axle stands, and my bank balance......

But this is just an idea of what I was starting with – somewhat crusty old P38 running gear:

So, as I’ve titled this thread the ‘ups and downs’ I thought I might stick to that theme and report on that basis. I’d given things a good blast of Plusgas and WD40 over the last few days before doing anything.

Today’s “ups”:

1.) I’m no longer an EAS virgin – yay! I managed to depressurise the front bags, the chassis sank gracefully onto the waiting axle stands, and the sky didn’t fall in!

2.) In general, everything I took off actually came away quite easily. I was a bit worried about the caliper carrier bolts. N/S were tight, but with a long ring spanner for leverage they shifted OK. O/S a bit tighter and I had to wield the ‘windy gun’ – sorted! The fact that everything came off relatively easily is a very big UP. Just that it only warrants one paragraph.

3.) There was only a little bit of swearing, and I haven’t decided to sell it yet!

The “downs” – well, one or two:

1) Remember the O/S was the wheel generating HEAT – lots of HEAT? Well, it’s presumably been doing this for some time. I’m told the discs and pads were changed in 2013... the new-ish looking pad is the N/S – the two burnt and crumbled ones are the O/S:

Kind of worse still was that this brake disc was as wobbly as a wobbly thing. The countersunk screw was loose and needed no persuasion at all to come out. Questions, questions.... but I’ll put all my daft questions in one place at the end!

2.) The O/S spring was just a bggr to remove. The spring itself would have been OK, but the bottom retaining pin decided to play hard. To matter how much I tapped, and twisted and pulled, it wasn’t for coming out. First I had to cut the bag around with a knife, then get the hacksaw in and cut the lower trumpet. Even that wasn’t enough and I had to get the blade between the spring and the axle and cut off the lower bit that holds the pin. What a *&&!

3.) Not so much a ‘down’ as I’d ordered and received the new parts, but here’s a little collection of knackered ball joints. I guess any one of these could have been causing its own little problems. Passed an MOT in September 2019.....

4.) Steering knuckle ball joints... Hmm. Not so sure. They don’t wobble too much, and there isn’t any vertical play ‘cos I checked:

But they feel pretty ‘tight’ really – laterally, when turning the hub from side to side. Almost certainly been there for 20 years and 78,000 miles (which I know is nothing at all really). And on one of the lower ones, the boot has split.

To change these would mean me buying replacements, as well as a tool chunky enough to shift them.

5.) Not so sure that the new springs I ordered are correct?

You can see the part numbers on the box – and that matches what I’ve got on ‘www.newlrcat’ – but they don’t look too similar. Who knows if the part, and the box are the same. The turret mount bit is the same diameter, though the new bag itself is narrower by roughly 20mm. The original baseplate to the axle has some metal in it. The new one doesn’t.

Anyway, this is more or less what I ended up with – a front end which has had everything I want to replace lifted away, apart from the front radius arms. I’ve left them on to keep everything in alignment, though I have cracked off all the nuts to check that they’ll go when the time comes.

(pic taken before the springs were removed)

Generally though, happy with my day.

Questions:

1) Are my replacement air springs ‘correct’? All the images on the web seem to show these ‘thinner’ ones...

2) Loose O/S brake disc (I’ve taken it off and it doesn’t appear to be warped). I assume this is meant to ‘tighten’ with the wheel nuts, but that perhaps the heat generated by the binding caliper has stopped it fixing in place. Should I just stick it back on? It’s getting new calipers, flexi hoses, pads and carriers anyway.

3) Steering ball joints.... ?? Just don’t know. I can foresee that removing these will be a real ** pig of a job – even if I did buy a chunky new balljoint remover. They look well rusted in place. But that split rubber cover on the N/S one worries me.

4) I haven’t got pics of this, but the CV joint boots are a tad loose where they fit onto the back of the hub. I wasn’t aware of any noises or the like. Do I just go daft and swap out the drive shafts?? Which end of the gaiter is meant to turn? Is it the small one at the axle end, or the larger one on the back of the hub? One of them has to!

5) Simpler this one.... Shock absorber bushes. I thought from the Land of Defender, that the cone on the bushes should face each other through the axle ( the ‘hour glass’ version here) but out of the box the shocks had the cones facing out.

Any opinions?

Thanks very much for making it to the bottom of this – thanks even more if you take the time to answer any of the questions!

I still need to wait for some of my new parts to arrive; and I need to order a couple more bits and pieces. Then I’ll get the front all squared away and move to the back.....

I’m looking forward to seeing how the car drives when all this is sorted!

OK. That didn't work..... let me see if I can figure out which of the 6 imgur links I actually need to use....

Still trying to figure this out....

Not so random pic

Ah well, it was just a first go at it. Maybe I need to try a tin of spinach and see if I can't muster some more grunt.

I'm assuming that the carrier would have to come off to change the disc? Judging by the state of the disc it's not 20 years old, so these bolts have probably been out at some stage. On the plus side, at 19mm they are more hefty than the 14mm Defender caliper bolts, so will take some more abuse.