^^ Thanks for both of those posts.

The ABS sensor wire is being pulled out of place in that photo - I had the caliper resting on the floor in front of the axle, and that's pulling it. Will be sorted!

Thanks for the link to the clips. If I'm now into the place where I'll be doing those balljoints then for all the cost of the clips themselves it would make sense to get a few into 'stock'.

Right - got you now. I obviously haven't looked at it closely enough.

In which case they are both definitely too loose. The issue then is finding some sort of clip with a low enough profile not to foul the steering housing or the ball joints. Sorted - I'll have a look about. The tie wrap that's on has been fouling something, which has probably led to it loosening.

Ta

Thanks guys;

Clive - I think I follow what you're saying but I imagine you have a better toybox than I do!! I already have various pullers and splitters. The most robust would be the two-armed job for pulling the drop arm off the Defender steering box. I certainly wouldn't be able to make up something able to handle the pressures which would probably be required. Massive G clamp it's going to have to be.

Richard - I'd also figured out that someone's been there before because I was checking out prices for driveshafts and looking at the pics. At those prices, I'll be sticking with the ones that are on the car. I had noticed that the locking block on the tie wraps used had been worn away, so I'll see if I can investigate another lower profile option. Just to be sure - the boot is meant to be "fixed" to the driveshaft at the narrower, axle end; and to 'spin' around the larger, hub end?

Thanks both....

Chris - I appreciate the offer of a talk through. I've been considering this remover set. What do you think? https://fourby.co.uk/epages/950004277.sf/en_GB/?ObjectPath=/Shops/950004277/Products/BJS001
Do you use this sort of thing?

Gilbertd wrote:

1. The air springs start off thinner but get fatter with time due to being full of air that supports the weight of the car, so yes, they are correct.

• Excellent. I was hoping it was something like that. In which case they were a useful bargain as opposed to a slightly expensive mistake

1. If there's no up and down movement they are fine. The rubber gaiters often split if a car has been left standing. The end sticks to the swivel so as soon as you turn the steering it rips the gaiter. Unfortunately an MoT fail (unless you get the Superglue out and un-split it.....).

• Ah, the old MOT fail trick.... Ho hum. An excuse to buy another tool and spend some more quality time in the garage!

1. The CV joint gaiters don't turn, or they do but both ends do along with the drive shaft. If it doesn't fall off and let all the grease out, it's fine. If it really worries you replace the clip.

• That's kind of what I meant, so the inner/narrower one stays attached to the driveshaft, and the bigger one spins around on the hub. You mention a clip - mine have a zip-tie/tie-wrap on there. They don't seem to be leaking, but I'll maybe look at what the clip should be, or replace the tie-wrap.

1. The bushes were put on wrong when they were put in the box. Yes, the cone end does go towards each other and the washers go the other way up so the convex side is against the rubber bushes.
   • It just goes to show. In an earlier life I'd just have taken them out of the box and stuck them on like that.

What amazes me is the amount of rust, normally everything is all black and oily from the Land Rover built in chassis lubrication system (aka front oil seal, rocker cover gaskets and anywhere else the engine can leak from). Those steering ball joints should never have passed an MoT in that state, they are well knackered......

There are oil leaks, but not massively. It doesn't mark its spot the way the Defender used to. I suspect it might have been steam cleaned fairly recently.

I guess I know now not to put too much store in that MOT, and perhaps to expect some more nasty surprises when I start to look at the back end.

On the plus-side I really am looking forward to having a 'sorted' P38 to play with, and not something loose and wallowy.

(Edit - text and list formatting on an ipad.... not so good)

Gilbertd wrote:

Looks like the end of a radius arm to me.....

Ha! Yes indeed. But a Defender one.... I was just trying to get the whole pics thing to work. Not so intuitive really. That pic comes with its own question - I've been surprised that the P38 radius arms seem to have so much room in between the axle brackets, in comparison with a Defender.

I'd meant to post two pics side by side... but that's for another day.

(well... that took a bit of trial and error... but this is what I'd meant to post at the beginning!)

Evening all!

I had a day off work today, so was able to press on with stripping down the front suspension and steering. My plan (pretty basic plan!) is to do the front first, then the back. It’s easier on me, my axle stands, and my bank balance......

But this is just an idea of what I was starting with – somewhat crusty old P38 running gear:

So, as I’ve titled this thread the ‘ups and downs’ I thought I might stick to that theme and report on that basis. I’d given things a good blast of Plusgas and WD40 over the last few days before doing anything.

Today’s “ups”:

1.) I’m no longer an EAS virgin – yay! I managed to depressurise the front bags, the chassis sank gracefully onto the waiting axle stands, and the sky didn’t fall in!

2.) In general, everything I took off actually came away quite easily. I was a bit worried about the caliper carrier bolts. N/S were tight, but with a long ring spanner for leverage they shifted OK. O/S a bit tighter and I had to wield the ‘windy gun’ – sorted! The fact that everything came off relatively easily is a very big UP. Just that it only warrants one paragraph.

3.) There was only a little bit of swearing, and I haven’t decided to sell it yet!

The “downs” – well, one or two:

1) Remember the O/S was the wheel generating HEAT – lots of HEAT? Well, it’s presumably been doing this for some time. I’m told the discs and pads were changed in 2013... the new-ish looking pad is the N/S – the two burnt and crumbled ones are the O/S:

Kind of worse still was that this brake disc was as wobbly as a wobbly thing. The countersunk screw was loose and needed no persuasion at all to come out. Questions, questions.... but I’ll put all my daft questions in one place at the end!

2.) The O/S spring was just a bggr to remove. The spring itself would have been OK, but the bottom retaining pin decided to play hard. To matter how much I tapped, and twisted and pulled, it wasn’t for coming out. First I had to cut the bag around with a knife, then get the hacksaw in and cut the lower trumpet. Even that wasn’t enough and I had to get the blade between the spring and the axle and cut off the lower bit that holds the pin. What a *&&!

3.) Not so much a ‘down’ as I’d ordered and received the new parts, but here’s a little collection of knackered ball joints. I guess any one of these could have been causing its own little problems. Passed an MOT in September 2019.....

4.) Steering knuckle ball joints... Hmm. Not so sure. They don’t wobble too much, and there isn’t any vertical play ‘cos I checked:

But they feel pretty ‘tight’ really – laterally, when turning the hub from side to side. Almost certainly been there for 20 years and 78,000 miles (which I know is nothing at all really). And on one of the lower ones, the boot has split.

To change these would mean me buying replacements, as well as a tool chunky enough to shift them.

5.) Not so sure that the new springs I ordered are correct?

You can see the part numbers on the box – and that matches what I’ve got on ‘www.newlrcat’ – but they don’t look too similar. Who knows if the part, and the box are the same. The turret mount bit is the same diameter, though the new bag itself is narrower by roughly 20mm. The original baseplate to the axle has some metal in it. The new one doesn’t.

Anyway, this is more or less what I ended up with – a front end which has had everything I want to replace lifted away, apart from the front radius arms. I’ve left them on to keep everything in alignment, though I have cracked off all the nuts to check that they’ll go when the time comes.

(pic taken before the springs were removed)

Generally though, happy with my day.

Questions:

1) Are my replacement air springs ‘correct’? All the images on the web seem to show these ‘thinner’ ones...

2) Loose O/S brake disc (I’ve taken it off and it doesn’t appear to be warped). I assume this is meant to ‘tighten’ with the wheel nuts, but that perhaps the heat generated by the binding caliper has stopped it fixing in place. Should I just stick it back on? It’s getting new calipers, flexi hoses, pads and carriers anyway.

3) Steering ball joints.... ?? Just don’t know. I can foresee that removing these will be a real ** pig of a job – even if I did buy a chunky new balljoint remover. They look well rusted in place. But that split rubber cover on the N/S one worries me.

4) I haven’t got pics of this, but the CV joint boots are a tad loose where they fit onto the back of the hub. I wasn’t aware of any noises or the like. Do I just go daft and swap out the drive shafts?? Which end of the gaiter is meant to turn? Is it the small one at the axle end, or the larger one on the back of the hub? One of them has to!

5) Simpler this one.... Shock absorber bushes. I thought from the Land of Defender, that the cone on the bushes should face each other through the axle ( the ‘hour glass’ version here) but out of the box the shocks had the cones facing out.

Any opinions?

Thanks very much for making it to the bottom of this – thanks even more if you take the time to answer any of the questions!

I still need to wait for some of my new parts to arrive; and I need to order a couple more bits and pieces. Then I’ll get the front all squared away and move to the back.....

I’m looking forward to seeing how the car drives when all this is sorted!

OK. That didn't work..... let me see if I can figure out which of the 6 imgur links I actually need to use....

Still trying to figure this out....

Not so random pic

Ah well, it was just a first go at it. Maybe I need to try a tin of spinach and see if I can't muster some more grunt.

I'm assuming that the carrier would have to come off to change the disc? Judging by the state of the disc it's not 20 years old, so these bolts have probably been out at some stage. On the plus side, at 19mm they are more hefty than the 14mm Defender caliper bolts, so will take some more abuse.

Hmm. I do have a good and powerful electric impact wrench. One of the high torque Makita jobs - something like 250Nm.

I did consider it, but I don't think I'll have room to get the gun in against those fixings (Edit - the carrier to hub bolts I mean) - particularly the upper one which is quite tight against the ball joint? I don't have bihex impact sockets, but I guess I could have a go with an older 'non impact' socket and consider it as sacrificial if it gets the job done.

Have you tried that Clive, and found there was room for the impact gun?

^^^ thanks for digging out those links. I'm actually keen to order via a local parts store if I can... away up here, I think it makes a lot of sense to support local businesses, 'cos they're the ones who'll be open on Saturday morning when you find that you need something else to finish the job. But when I get the quote I'll check out what the brands are.

I wasn't expecting to do any sort of update tonight, but I got the car on the front axle stands, wheels off, sprayed all the relevant stuff with Plusgas, and as I had a little bit more time on my hands I thought I'd push on a little. Really surprised that some very, very crusty looking fixings started to shift very easily - relatively-speaking!

Working on the N/S I got the track rod and drag link ball joint nuts to shift. When I started to undo the drag link nut, the ball joint taper leapt straight out of the hole - wasn't expecting that! Coupled with the joint itself feeling loose and dry, I think that will be a big improvement. Anti roll bar nuts, and front radius arm nut also moved OK, as did the steering damper fixings.... all good so far.

I've got the N/S caliper off the carrier - but I really can't see me getting the carrier itself off the hub. That looks like it's well stuck unfortunately. Starting to wonder about just cleaning out the sliding pin socket and using new pins, as I could see those carrier nuts shearing if I tried to get to medieval on them.

Overall though, quite surprised to have things start to shift so easily on such an old car, where there's no obvious sign of recent replacements.

Discovered I will need to replace the flexi-hoses to the caliper. Quite astonished that things in that state passed an MOT as recently as September last year....

That's an interesting comment about smelling burning that I hadn't though about - there wasn't really any smell at all - just HEAT!

As an update though, I put the car into the garage last night, in access mode, battery disconnected, and stuck four axle stands under the chassis. It'll be interesting to have a look after work and see it's dropped at all. Just because of where the axle stands adjusted up, there was roughly an inch between the stands and the chassis all round.

Apart from the suspension/steering stuff I've ordered, I'm also looking just to do a brake refurb. I've asked my local parts shop to quote for calipers/carriers/pads etc. I'm conscious that this might be britpart in the first instance (and without opening that whole can of worms....) it will hopefully get the car mobile for the moment and maybe for a few months more at least. If I end up having to swap out the calipers again, in say 6 or 7 months time, then I can get a better make then if necessary.

So tonight it starts - taking the wheels off and then getting underneath with a can of Plusgas penetrating oil on every fixing that I think I'll be tackling... but the grinder will be on standby!

Thanks for those replies.

Useful to know I can disconnect the battery at the start of this wee suspension overhaul, without having to go through a greater procedure when I'm finished.

On the wobble - one thing I am pretty certain of is that it's not "bump-related". Once it starts to come on, it just stays there, gets progressively worse and then reaches a plateau of unpleasantness! I wasn't really even aware of a drag on the steering tbh.

In general I think I'm just doing a lot more mileage in the car than has been the case for a good few years, so I'm just exposing older components which are past their best. Once I work my way through the sensible replacements I should have a vehicle that will run better, give me peace of mind and not offend the MOT tester!

I'll get some brake bits ordered as it'll just make sense to do them while I'm in the vicinity.

Looking to wheel bearings - it's likely the ones on the car are original. What's their usual lifespan? I haven't assessed them at all, so no reason to think they are bad or worn, just pondering. Without a press, there isn't really an alternative to the spendy hub/bearing assembly?

Thanks guys, looks like I might have dodged a wee bullet then. There were no warning lights or any other sort of indication. TBH if I hadn't gone to check the tyre pressure and felt the heat and melting valve cap I might not even have noticed. There was no smoke from the bearings this time - though I do worry about previous episodes. On the other hand, I'm also not getting that growly rumble you get from knackered bearings.

It sounds very much as if new caliper carriers will be a sensible move - I'll have a good look at the pistons and seals while I'm there. I had a quick glance only at the brake bleeding section of my workshop manual, and it seems a lot more complicated than the basic systems I'm used to, but I daresay it's not so bad once you're used to it.

Dave - I might have caused some confusion. I've ordered and paid for the suspension/steering parts today, but they haven't arrived yet. Maybe by the weekend with a fair wind. So at this stage in my 6 months of ownership I've done nothing to the running gear at all. Just a couple of wee dashboard jobs. I've organised to speak to the previous owner on the phone this week just to refresh my memory on what he said when I was test-driving it, but from what I've seen while things are more or less working OK, there's not much that's very fresh looking. That's not a criticism really - when you're selling a car with a year's MOT you don't want to spend £100s more on parts and labour.

Hello all,

I thought I might try to start a thread where I could keep all my sh!t together - ask my daft laddie questions, and once I get a picture hosting platform set up, post pics of the more crusty bits of my car.

I did introduce myself elsewhere, but for the purpose of this thread my car is a RHD, 4.0 Thor auto, 2000my. Base/economy spec, and currently only on about 78k miles. I bought it last December on about 73,000.

I recently asked a question about getting underneath the car safely ( https://rangerovers.pub/topic/1831-getting-underneath-a-p38-safely-and-the-reason-why ) to try and figure out what was causing a steering wobble. Now awaiting a bunch of parts to start tackling and tightening up the front end suspension and steering. As I say, I'll post pics of the more crusty bits once I get Imgur or the likes organised.

However...... and getting to my latest daft question....

On the way to work this morning ( short run - about 7-8 miles) no wobble to begin with, starts about half-way. On the way home, same story. So I thought I would rule out tyre pressures or a slow leak. Bend down to take the valve cap off the drivers wheel and the heat is just bouncing off it. You could 'touch' the wheel - but you wouldn't want to hold your hand against if for longer than an instant. The valve cap wouldn't unscrew properly because it was half-melted.... oh dear... Passenger side was warm - maybe a little bit warmer than I might have expected after an 8 mile run at town speeds, but nothing in comparison to the driver's side.

I've left it where it is to cool down, and then I'll put it into its carport.

I assume this is a binding brake caliper. This will be my first experience with the 'sliding' type calipers - previous things I've worked on (minis/Defenders) have been the fixed caliper/moving pistons type. So, I'm further assuming that the caliper is sticking on the pins that it's supposed to slide along.

The working theory is that I don't get the wobble when I start off because everything is cold - then as things warm up, especially with a sticky caliper, things start to bind. Having one brake acting on one side is generating odd behaviour, and maybe my steering wobble??

Does this all sound about right so far?

So, moving on to fixing this:

• am I likely to need new caliper components, or just to clean and lubricate the caliper slides?
• will the heat have damaged the wheel bearing??
• I suppose it's possible the disc might have warped (feckity feck) but I certainly haven't thrown water at it to cool it down or anything.
• is there any possibility this is not caused by a mechanical issue, but electrical/ABS sort of stuff? I've owned ABS cars before, but never worked on them (see previous comment about minis and defenders).

Having just dropped £400 on suspension components, the last thing I really need is to start rebuilding the brakes too!

Finallly, just for some light relief. If I put the car on axle stands to do all this, and pull the battery to put it on a trickle charge, does it really matter how long the car is disconnected? The reconnection routine will be the same after 3 weeks as after 3 hours?

I will appreciate any assistance and advice as always - keeping this old thing on the road will be a new learning curve.

Ta

Donald

Well, today I've ordered a bunch of stuff to get started on this. Maybe the first month's 'instalment'...

I didn't go for the Gwyn Lewis steering bars this time around - though as a solid 30mm bar I don't think there would be any question about strength. I've gone for Lemforder versions - rods and balljoint assemblies, along with new front air springs and fixings, steering damper, panhard bushes and fixings, and front shock absorbers, anti-roll bar bushes and links and a new front propshaft. Radius arms tbc. That should all make a very useful difference to how the car drives. I'll look at doing the back end next month.

However after all that, I think I might have accidentally stumbled upon something else this evening which could generate a 'wobble' - and it's none of the above 😩... Rather than keep going here under this odd thread title, I think I'll start something else to document questions and issues as they crop up.

Thanks guys,

(Not diesel - it's a 4.0 Thor)

Picking up on most of this:

• Not going to fit Polybush, but I might fit Superpro ;-) However I've just priced up OEM vs Superpro and it looks like the price difference is substantial. Probably enough to pay for a press - even if not the shipping to Inverness... :-( So we'll see.

• Lemforder - yep - went for them where I could on the Defender

• Track rod and drag link. Again, there's a price difference between Gwyn's Sumobars and standard/OEM but in this instance it's only about £50/60 - and for that you get good stainless bars that could even be taken off and sold on if the time ever comes.

And talking about pricing up, I've gone through the parts list and it could be anything between £800 and £950 to do a suspension overhaul. By that I mean the stuff that bounces and keeps it in a straight line, not wheel bearings, halfshafts, hubs etc. Spread over 3 or 4 months that's OK - and the MOT's not due till September...

I think I'm going to get quite used to lying underneath it - but the state of the air springs at the moment mean I'll definitely want to use extra supports!

So.... back on topic a bit, like I said "baby steps". I got the car on one axle stand tonight, and took the NS front wheel off! Yay!

I had the "wrong clothes" on to go much further, and it was a Friday evening so I had better things to do....

But first thoughts:
Def going to need new air springs on the front. The one I was looking at, on its extended setting, was pretty heavily crumbling away at the bottom. Something to get parts for and look forward to.

There's no obvious play on the wheel top/bottom or side to side, so it's not really about to fall off. I'll see what the other one's like tomorrow.

None of the ball joints look anything close to 'fresh' - drag link/track rod etc - so probably as well just to swap out all of that.

Been watching videos on the steering knuckle ball joints. That looks like a whole lot of fun... not. And an expensive new tool to buy unless there's a workaround?

radius arms - hmmm. It almost looks as if it's the wrong radius arm for the axle. There must be about 3/4 to 1 inch of clearance between the radius arms and the axle brackets. I didn't have a camera handy. I'll post pics later. I've looked online for pics and haven't found anything which shows the same area. Can't really say about the bushes... maybe Ok.

Happy to get any observations on the above, but specific questions
1) Gwyn Lewis does a sumobar set for the drag link and track rods incl. ball joints. Just fitted a set to the Defender and I love them. Can't see any reason they'd be different on a P38? Any thoughts?

2) OK - I'll open the can of worms... I know there's a huge OEM vs 'polybush' debate for Defenders. So I've gone for superpro all round - polyurethane bushes, yes, but not 'Polybush'. Has anyone used them on the P38? I don't have a press, so OEM are a bit tricky.

3) Front propshaft - no rubber dougnut; rear propshaft does?? Is that right?

Many thanks.

Donald

Thanks guys, I appreciate that.

I think I'm still slightly unsure of the EAS, hence why I'm nervous. It drops overnight in my car port, but it could be because the ground isn't entirely level, so the corners could be chasing each other.

Two jacks as described sounds nice and simple and worth it for my peace of mind alone.

Once I get it up, and the front wheels off ( I do think it's roughly from the front) I'll have a poke around and, fingers crossed, find something obvious. When you say balljoints, I assume you mean track rod and drag link? Or is there something else in there I'm not familiar with?

I've recently put superpro bushes all round on the Defender, and I've bought a spare set of rear arms for the P38 with the idea of prepping them for a straight swap - hoping the superpro bushes will be as easy to install this time around as they were on the 110.

I think ( as with another recent thread ) that I'm still in two minds whether it's a long term keeper or not. There's a good enough list of stuff to do, and that's before I've even had a good look underneath:

• Shocks - all round probably - wallows unpleasantly if I corner too enthusiastically;
• Handling generally is sloppy, hence why I'm considering a superpro bush set;
• Sunroof seems to be disconnected from the mechanism - presume there's a good reason for that, which I'd need to fix;
• There was an advise on brake pipes at the last MOT;
• HEVAC book alarm symbol on the display (which Marty has just fixed, so I know it's not the display itself) - probably means dash out;
• SRS/airbag warning light on the dash (was told that's a dodgy connection under the front passenger seat - maybe);
• Beginning to see some corrosion on the rear wheel arches, and the bottom of the O/S read door;
• No audio from the rear doors;
• No idea if the Air con works at all.

One the one hand, once I'm more comfortable with the basic systems of the car - i.e. confident that I can work safely around it, then none of the list above really bothers me, financially or technically.

On the other hand all the electrical control systems are not my strong point. Basic agricultural electrics, like my 300Tdi-era Defender are no bother; ECUs not so much.....

But its baby steps for now. I don't want to drive the car at all at the moment for fear of something falling off, so I need to get underneath and figure this one out.

Hi guys,
Well, just about getting to the point where I need to do a little more to my 2000 4.0. 77k miles.

One of the small mental obstacles has been: how do I get underneath safely without any risk of the car collapsing on me? I did read one thing about blocks under the axles, or something like that - harder to understand without pics - but I almost took it to mean that I would need to fit wooden blocks above the axles, between them and the bodywork.

I certainly don't think I'd be happy relying on the car's systems itself (locking with the switch, or with a door open) so looking for the practical but sensible methods that experienced owners use. I have a concrete floored garage, hefty axle stands, a big (3 ton?)trolley jack, and a 'little' trolley jack. Well used to using all of these on the 110 Defender, so not a complete novice, but it's one of these things that you don't know until you know. I've tried searching the web, but not found anything.

Why? I have a nasty wobble which I need to investigate. It feels like a wheel's about to fall off. (I've been there before with another vehicle). It used to be very occasional - i.e. happend on a longer trip back in March, barely happened again until last week.

I used to think it was speed related - if I pootled about at 50, then no bother; if I went up to 70+ then it would kick in, but ease again once I'd slowed. Now I'm not so sure - it happened on a short run home last Friday (and I haven't used it since - because I don't want a wheel to fall off!) and on that occasion it seemed to be present even down to lower speeds.

My thoughts are - in no real order - a duff propshaft UJ which is getting worse; a diff missing it's damper thing; or a wheel bearing that's on the way out. On a Defender I'd also be wondering about the front swivel tension.

Any help you can offer on safely getting underneath, and pointers on likely wobble candidates would be very gratefully received.

(off out now to replace a timing cover on a 1.2 Clio!)

Thanks for the reply!

I figured this out kind of by default. I had the panels either side of the centre console out, to remove the HEVAC controller - no wires under there. Then I took the LH kick panel out while I was working on the heater blower and found a few bits of the loom.

Without disturbing things at all, everything looks pretty good in there. Nothing that would make me think there was any corrosion or the like.

Which does point more towards the 2nd row speakers. I'll need to take the RH driver's side off shortly to see if I can figure out why the window isn't working - and that will be a good opportunity to check out the speakers too.