Yep, that's my concern really. However my experience with the axles has been that once I chip away the old paint, and the blown rust underneath, then what's left seems OK.

I think/hope this will be the same as a quick look suggests it's not such an easy thing to get hold of, and £310 new....

Hi guys,

Been making some progress on getting my car moving again - working on the front axle 'refurb'.

While doing that, I was undoing the back of the OS radius arm and had a closer look at the EAS tank. It looks more than a little 'crusty', with maybe, some pitting.

With the axles/hubs I've found that a hammer and chisel is an effective way of removing the rust and it seems simply that corrosion has got in underneath the original paint.

I guess this could be the same - remove it, clean off the rust, prep and paint - but it is a pressure vessel.

What do you guys think with more experienced eyes? At the moment the system is drained down to change the front bags, so a good time to pull this out.

Thanks as usual

Thanks Harv, that's good to know. The rails and bars are 'in the post' just now, and should arrive tomorrow. Looking forward to that.

Now I just need to get the car moving again. Off work tomorrow, so with the extended weekend I'm hoping to make some progress.

Ironically, I think the RR might be a little more awkward to load the canoe onto than the Defender - because it's lower.

I've got the hang of the lift/knee/twist/technique to get the boat onto my shoulders. With the Def I just walk up to the back of the car; rest the front of the canoe on the rear bar and lower the back of it onto the ground. I then step out from underneath, go to the back of the boat, lift it up and push it forward until the front of the boat rests on the front bar and overhangs the windscreen/bonnet.

More or less the same for the RR I'd expect, except that it's lower, so I'll have to shuffle/crouch out from underneath and maybe, because the rearmost bar won't be right at the back of the car, the canoe won't rest on it so easily, and might sit on the top of the tailgate??

That's a lot harder to explain in words, a pic would be easier, but that would mean having the car mobile and out of the garage.......

Thanks again guys,

I think the rails will definitely stay on more or less permanently; I think I can see myself taking the cross bars on and off, but I'll see how that goes once I'm more familiar with the fitting.

The canoe doesn't really need any mount as such - it just rests upside down on the bars and gets attached with a couple of cam tension straps; and ideally something from the 'bow' to the front of the car. I have some old neoprene/foam things on the Defender bars, and they do minimise and movement, but are simple to get hold of.

Just one last question on this - I promise! - somewhere I've read about a hole which can exist under the roof trim covers and which can leak into the car. I saw a picture, and can remember that this was at the top of the windscreen. I do have evidence of a leak at the top of the windscreen/left hand side. It could be the sunroof, or it could be this 'hole' if it exists.

It seems to me it would be better to check before fixing bars, so does anyone know if it's common to have a hole in this location, and if so, how would I remove the whole trim rail/cover things to check??

Ta

Donald

dave3d wrote:

There are a set of roof rails and the cross bars on Ebay at the moment. You will have to be quick, it finishes today:

Thanks for that Dave. I was watching a couple of listings on ebay, but I was successful with a 'snipe' on the one you linked to. £235 got it, which isn't cheap, but is a lot less than some are listed for, and it includes the cross bars as well as the rails.

Set against £150/170 odd for a quality set of bars that I'd need to bolt/unbolt each time I wanted to use them, I think it's a good option and it's getting that 'factory' look.

One last question from me on this one: how do the little tabs on the roof channel trim work? I'm always wary of old plastic where it's not immediately obvious which way it's supposed to work. Do they slide, or lever, or hinge or what?

Whatever it is, 20 years of UV exposure won't have helped.

Thanks all,

I was going to load a pic of the canoe on the Defender today, but imgur is playing silly b@ggers. I really don't want the app...!

The canoe sits very happily on two bars. Because it has its own curvature to the gunwales, a third bar is effectively redundant. Like I said above, the further apart they are, the better.

I see that Craddocks have a pair of the "sport bars" new for £217, which isn't ridiculous. Although as Clive says, the pic does show a pair fitted on the rearmost two locations. I'd hope they could be fitted at the front and back?

My car has no rails, and I would be near 100% certain that the covers over the mounting locations have never, ever been touched or moved. Brittle plastic is a near certainty.

Ideally I'd have a system that I could put on/off quickly - which maybe does point to the genuine rails, and then any old crossbars? I don't think I'd mind leaving the rails on permanently.

I'm not familiar with the yakima system, but I'll have a look.

Why bother, when I have the Defender? It's because they might be like a 'tag team' - when one's in the garage, the other stays mobile - and if the Def. had the rooftent on, then a little run out with the P38 would be called for..

Thanks again for the replies though. I'm better informed than I was this morning.

(Edit - just looked more closely at the catalogue link in Clive's post - it says the sports bars can be used in any of the three mounting locations, so that answers that question - but there's still the issue of something that's easily fixed/removed.)

Hey guys,

One of these days I'll update my 'ups and downs' thread to say that the car is back on the road and MOT'd..... I think I've all the parts I need, I just have to find a solid 2 or 3 days to crack on with it.

In the meantime, assuming I get to that stage one of the things I might want to do is carry an open/canadian canoe. I have a choice of 2 but they're both 16ft boats, and benefit from the bars being as far apart as possible ( fore and aft) on the roof. On the Defender this is easy, with bars that clamp into the guttering wherever you want. On the other hand, they're not that heavy - roughly 25-28kg depending on which one I take.

How does the P38 roof rack system work? I have looked at ebay etc and it does seem like it's a little more resticted, with some of the pictures I've seen showing the cross bars to be fitted relatively close together given the available length of the car.

I can see that there's a 'genuine' rail and crossbar option, but even used it's spendy, so for occasional use I guess I'm more likely to get 'bars and feet' but does that mean I'm restricted to specific points on the car? Could I use the furthest forward and back points to give the maximum spread?

And, any recommendations at all for what to get?

Thanks

(Edit to say I did try to search first, but couldn't find a specific answer)

Thank you gentlemen, I'll investigate further - once I've got the car back on the road! I'll excavate the BECM and see what it looks like. No need to worry about the mirrors - don't think either of them work!

Thanks Marty,

I hadn't thought of (and am not bothered about) the memory side of things. Just going up and down, and back to front would do me fine, as the reason I am even considering this at all is simply to replace old velour with more long-lasting leather, not specifically to get all of the seat functionality. In my wife's car, which I occasionally use, then the only adjustment I ever make is pushing it back a couple of inches.

Strangely enough I haven't sat in the RR passenger seat since the first 5 mins of my test drive. It's wired by default, even if not use? That is interesting.

How would I know if I have a High Line BeCM? Would that just be because of the various options in the car, or could you have a high line version on a low-spec car?

Thanks Leolito,

They aren't 'manual' as such... at least I don't think so. The manual ones have the small lever for up and down, don't they?

I have a manual control for back and forward adjustment, but there's a switch and motor for height adjustment, or as I say, there's supposed to be. I also have a nanocom, so could use that to turn on the BeCM functionality couldn't I? Is it as simple as just turning it on, or would a 'manual seat' BeCM not leave the factory with the required programming?

As far as the loom is concerned I imagine that they wouldn't fit the whole electric loom if the seat was only capable of going up and down, but I have to say I haven't checked.

Again, I "imagine" (doing a lot of that amn't I!) that a full seat loom would just be 'plug and play' if sourced from a breaker? But maybe that would be too simple...

Hi folks,

This is a bit "what if" at this stage, just trying to understand what's possible - once I get the car mobile again! However, like the title says, my car has very basic grey velour seats, with only the up/down button on the drivers side, and even that's broken off and missing.

If I spend some more time and money getting the running gear sorted, and it looks more like the car is a 'keeper' then what are my options for replacement seats?

I see there's a couple of breakers doing complete interiors. I don't want to change the colour at all, but if I found a good set of grey leather seats are they a straight swap over? They seem much more commonly available with all of the adjustment buttons. Would they go into my car at all, and/or would the BECM need to be amended/reactivated?

If the answer is a straight no, then that's fine - one less thing to think about!

Any advice gratefully received as always.

Ta

Donald

I haven't been near the rear of my car yet (it's still on axle stands waiting for me to finish the front!) but I have bought new rear ones, so I've been following this thread.

My front ones sound much like yours - a real hassle getting the off-side pin out. Ended up cutting the bag in half; then a hacksaw; and a dremel! So I'm not looking forward to the rear ones at all. I've also bought some stainless steel wire of the right thickness to form into replacement clips just in case I ever find myself doing this again.

But....back to your question. Is it possible that rust in the top mount for the spring has 'swollen' the mounting location? In which case a drill and wire brush might just polish some swollen rust, rather than removing it. I say this because when working on my front 'knuckles' and on the ends of the axles I've been using a hammer and chisel to remove swollen/blown rust. It can make quite a difference. Easily the mm or two which could be causing you grief.

As I say, I haven't tackled this yet, so I don't really know that part of the car, or what access is like, but if you've had that much grief, then it's at least possible that a rust build up could be getting in your way?

I'd be a 'plus one' on this too. Either a 'careful' DIY, or sending the cluster down.

Clive603 wrote:

Allegedly the dimensions are out on t'net somewhere but darned if I can find them.
Picture of a home made one comes up fairly easily, usually with associated comments about sizes and promises to post them but ...

Clive

As I've damaged the collets with the grinder while removing the steering knuckle, I've found myself doing the same run around today, trying to find these sizes...reading the same promises to post them.... and they're still not there!

My idea is a two piece thing - but not as elegant as what's been suggested in Clive's other post. First piece - simply a wooden shaft, turned to fit into the axle. My thinking is that it would need to fit a decent way into the axle to give a better alignment. This would also be long enough to extend out beyond the steering knuckle.

Second piece would essentially be a disc, turned to be the same diameter as the knuckle/carrier aperture (where the driveshaft and hub fits) with a hole in the middle precisely large enough to slide over the shaft piece.

Shaft goes into the axle; disc gets fitted on; and then slots into the knuckle only when the alignment is correct. I believe this is roughly the principle of the proper £1000 tool. For others who have successfuly done this job, does that two-piece idea sound like it should work?

So, while I could measure the hole in the knuckle casing easy enough, I don't have the internal dimensions of the axle casing yet.

As I'll be away on hols for a fortnight from this weekend, now would be an ideal time to get stuff ordered, or even to get something like this machined up locally.

So does anyone now have any further idea of the dimensions, or are they still just 'out there somewhere'?

Many thanks

(Edit - I reckon the axle aperture is 45mm diameter in the narrower section just behind the seal. Now just need to tidy up the knuckle/carrier hole to get a good measurement off that.)

Nice! thanks for taking the time to post the pics anyway - it's very useful to see a 'real world' example and not something the marketing dept has created.

I might actually consider that for the carriers/knuckles themselves, as they are portable and could be put in a bucket.

The question about rinsing, for me, concerned the actual axle casing and the ball joint 'yoke'. I couldn't leave that to soak in solution - without a lot more work, and a much bigger bucket! There's a lot of rust there, on the casing; around the air spring mounts; around the radius arm mounts etc. It's nothing structural, but I don't want it to get any worse, and it'll never be easier to treat than it is now, with everything to stripped back.

Perhaps I'll use a 'converter' there, and the bilt hamber stuff on the knuckles.

(Edit - you know what? I've just taken a closer look at that Deox stuff, and I've ordered a 1Kg bottle. If I don't use it here, I'm sure I'll use it again at some point. Looks like really good stuff.)

Thanks again guys,

I decided to go for genuine/breakers sensors, so they're on their way. £30 the pair, so fingers crossed.

On the rust remover question, I did look at that sort of product but decided it would make too much of a mess - unless I've understood it wrong? Do you need to wash/rinse the stuff off afterwards?

I've already orderd this stuff: fe123 on the basis of another recommendation, and because I've used similar before. Given that I'm not trying to do a full restoration here I'm hoping it will be better than the rust, and provide a little more longevity.

And finally.....yay! I spent another hour or so in the garage when I came home and managed to get the O/S ball joints out, and the remnants of the tapers out of the carrier/knuckle itself.

So that's more or less the (front) stripdown finished barring:

1. the old axle oil seals (leaving these in until I'm ready to put the new ones in - so I have a visual reference);
2. removing the old panhard rod bushes, and;
3. disconnecting the calipers and flexi hoses.

Next job will be attacking the worst of the loose/flaky rust before the rust converter comes up the road. But at least now I can go on holiday in the knowledge that I'm nearing the fun bit of rebuilding.

Thanks gents,

I knew from the preview that something was wrong with the images - so a double thanks for that. I must have done the first one right just by coincidence.

There actually was a split boot on that ball joint before, I just cut it away to stop it interfering with my attempts to split the taper. I knew it was a one-way trip anyway!

Thanks also for the replies about the sensors - that does make things a little easier.

New alignment collets required??

Managed to upload some pics of yesterday’s fun and games.

Overall score:
Ups – several I think;
Downs – maybe 4 (2 of which were entirely self-inflicted).

Armed with my new ball joint splitter it was time to dismantle the front steering knuckle assemblies.

I’d been soaking the hub bolts, and the hub to knuckle join in loosening oil for a few days, and when the time came the whole thing came out relatively easily – a combination of thumping a reversed brake disc, and a punch on the bolts themselves. I didn’t get any pictures of this bit – too busy with the lump hammer.

Unfortunately, as I said in the post above, the ABS sensors were in no mood to come out easily. Uh uh, no way. I am assuming they’ve been in there since the car rolled off the production line in 2000:

So the next step – getting this off the axle:

The ball joints were pretty stuck:

The nuts shifted, but there’s plenty of rust in there. And my ‘scissor splitter’ doesn’t open wide enough to include the housing and the nut, so the big grinder came out – top and bottom:

I count that as an ‘up’ that I managed to get the knuckle off OK. Then used my new ball joint splitter to take out the N/S top and bottom ball joints. I wouldn’t say they were an ‘easy’ shift, but they did come out: (this wasn’t how I successfully used the press on the lower one)

End result:

Pretty happy to have got to this stage. I now plan to brush off and degrease much of this, and the knuckle housing itself before treating it to some ‘rust converter’.

I then moved onto the O/S. More or less the same – stuck ABS sensor; few whacks with the hammer and the driveshaft was out; grinder onto the ball joint tapers. I haven’t tackled those balljoints yet. I’m optimistic based on the N/S experience, but if anything these are even more crusty than those were.

Forgot to mention the 'downs' - one is having to buy new ABS sensors; the other is that both steering stop bolts just snapped off in the housing :-( I'm thinking of just drilling a 10mm hole through both and putting in an M12 bolt. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't do as good a job.

So – two questions:
The first is just to carry forward the one from the post above – the decision between aftermarket and OEM ABS sensors – any views?
The second is that, in having to grind off the ball joints I did take away a little of where the height adjustment collets come through:

I’m guessing it’s this side of the knuckle/collet that actually makes the adjustment; lifting the hub assembly up into alignment? In which case I’ll need to use new collets and have a stab at the alignment?

Might manage to tackle the last two ball joints at some point this week, but after that it’s a two week holiday, so the car can rest on its axle stands just a little longer…….

Hi guys,
Managed to spend some more time on this today. I'll leave all the details and some other questions till I get a chance to post pics tomorrow, but I wanted to ask about ABS sensors as I'll need to order a pair. They did indeed put up a fight. Probably in there for 20 years. WSM said "prise out with a suitable lever"..... eh, no. Not a chance.

On a quick google (STC2786?) there's quite a difference in price from 'Allmakes' at about £20-ish, up to £110-120 for more OEM type. That's quite a jump and seemingly nothing in between. As I'll need two, buying OEM would be a significant expense.

Are these the kind of things where aftermarket works, or could I even look to get a set from a breaker and just buy the new copper bushes?

Thanks

(Edit - since posting this I've googled a lot more, and got a kind of predictable 'buy OEM/genuine' sort of consensus, with a few 'I bought cheaper ones, and they've been fine' comments thrown into the mix. It would be no surprise if the same thing was reflected here. I'll see what responses might come before making a decision. It's an odd one because experience tells me it's possible to take a calculated risk on a 'mechanical' pattern part. It might not last so long or whatever, but you'll usually get some use out of it. With something like this it might just not work straight out of the box and throw up error codes.....)