dave3d wrote:

There are a set of roof rails and the cross bars on Ebay at the moment. You will have to be quick, it finishes today:

Thanks for that Dave. I was watching a couple of listings on ebay, but I was successful with a 'snipe' on the one you linked to. £235 got it, which isn't cheap, but is a lot less than some are listed for, and it includes the cross bars as well as the rails.

Set against £150/170 odd for a quality set of bars that I'd need to bolt/unbolt each time I wanted to use them, I think it's a good option and it's getting that 'factory' look.

One last question from me on this one: how do the little tabs on the roof channel trim work? I'm always wary of old plastic where it's not immediately obvious which way it's supposed to work. Do they slide, or lever, or hinge or what?

Whatever it is, 20 years of UV exposure won't have helped.

Thanks all,

I was going to load a pic of the canoe on the Defender today, but imgur is playing silly b@ggers. I really don't want the app...!

The canoe sits very happily on two bars. Because it has its own curvature to the gunwales, a third bar is effectively redundant. Like I said above, the further apart they are, the better.

I see that Craddocks have a pair of the "sport bars" new for £217, which isn't ridiculous. Although as Clive says, the pic does show a pair fitted on the rearmost two locations. I'd hope they could be fitted at the front and back?

My car has no rails, and I would be near 100% certain that the covers over the mounting locations have never, ever been touched or moved. Brittle plastic is a near certainty.

Ideally I'd have a system that I could put on/off quickly - which maybe does point to the genuine rails, and then any old crossbars? I don't think I'd mind leaving the rails on permanently.

I'm not familiar with the yakima system, but I'll have a look.

Why bother, when I have the Defender? It's because they might be like a 'tag team' - when one's in the garage, the other stays mobile - and if the Def. had the rooftent on, then a little run out with the P38 would be called for..

Thanks again for the replies though. I'm better informed than I was this morning.

(Edit - just looked more closely at the catalogue link in Clive's post - it says the sports bars can be used in any of the three mounting locations, so that answers that question - but there's still the issue of something that's easily fixed/removed.)

Hey guys,

One of these days I'll update my 'ups and downs' thread to say that the car is back on the road and MOT'd..... I think I've all the parts I need, I just have to find a solid 2 or 3 days to crack on with it.

In the meantime, assuming I get to that stage one of the things I might want to do is carry an open/canadian canoe. I have a choice of 2 but they're both 16ft boats, and benefit from the bars being as far apart as possible ( fore and aft) on the roof. On the Defender this is easy, with bars that clamp into the guttering wherever you want. On the other hand, they're not that heavy - roughly 25-28kg depending on which one I take.

How does the P38 roof rack system work? I have looked at ebay etc and it does seem like it's a little more resticted, with some of the pictures I've seen showing the cross bars to be fitted relatively close together given the available length of the car.

I can see that there's a 'genuine' rail and crossbar option, but even used it's spendy, so for occasional use I guess I'm more likely to get 'bars and feet' but does that mean I'm restricted to specific points on the car? Could I use the furthest forward and back points to give the maximum spread?

And, any recommendations at all for what to get?

Thanks

(Edit to say I did try to search first, but couldn't find a specific answer)

Thank you gentlemen, I'll investigate further - once I've got the car back on the road! I'll excavate the BECM and see what it looks like. No need to worry about the mirrors - don't think either of them work!

Thanks Marty,

I hadn't thought of (and am not bothered about) the memory side of things. Just going up and down, and back to front would do me fine, as the reason I am even considering this at all is simply to replace old velour with more long-lasting leather, not specifically to get all of the seat functionality. In my wife's car, which I occasionally use, then the only adjustment I ever make is pushing it back a couple of inches.

Strangely enough I haven't sat in the RR passenger seat since the first 5 mins of my test drive. It's wired by default, even if not use? That is interesting.

How would I know if I have a High Line BeCM? Would that just be because of the various options in the car, or could you have a high line version on a low-spec car?

Thanks Leolito,

They aren't 'manual' as such... at least I don't think so. The manual ones have the small lever for up and down, don't they?

I have a manual control for back and forward adjustment, but there's a switch and motor for height adjustment, or as I say, there's supposed to be. I also have a nanocom, so could use that to turn on the BeCM functionality couldn't I? Is it as simple as just turning it on, or would a 'manual seat' BeCM not leave the factory with the required programming?

As far as the loom is concerned I imagine that they wouldn't fit the whole electric loom if the seat was only capable of going up and down, but I have to say I haven't checked.

Again, I "imagine" (doing a lot of that amn't I!) that a full seat loom would just be 'plug and play' if sourced from a breaker? But maybe that would be too simple...

Hi folks,

This is a bit "what if" at this stage, just trying to understand what's possible - once I get the car mobile again! However, like the title says, my car has very basic grey velour seats, with only the up/down button on the drivers side, and even that's broken off and missing.

If I spend some more time and money getting the running gear sorted, and it looks more like the car is a 'keeper' then what are my options for replacement seats?

I see there's a couple of breakers doing complete interiors. I don't want to change the colour at all, but if I found a good set of grey leather seats are they a straight swap over? They seem much more commonly available with all of the adjustment buttons. Would they go into my car at all, and/or would the BECM need to be amended/reactivated?

If the answer is a straight no, then that's fine - one less thing to think about!

Any advice gratefully received as always.

Ta

Donald

I haven't been near the rear of my car yet (it's still on axle stands waiting for me to finish the front!) but I have bought new rear ones, so I've been following this thread.

My front ones sound much like yours - a real hassle getting the off-side pin out. Ended up cutting the bag in half; then a hacksaw; and a dremel! So I'm not looking forward to the rear ones at all. I've also bought some stainless steel wire of the right thickness to form into replacement clips just in case I ever find myself doing this again.

But....back to your question. Is it possible that rust in the top mount for the spring has 'swollen' the mounting location? In which case a drill and wire brush might just polish some swollen rust, rather than removing it. I say this because when working on my front 'knuckles' and on the ends of the axles I've been using a hammer and chisel to remove swollen/blown rust. It can make quite a difference. Easily the mm or two which could be causing you grief.

As I say, I haven't tackled this yet, so I don't really know that part of the car, or what access is like, but if you've had that much grief, then it's at least possible that a rust build up could be getting in your way?

I'd be a 'plus one' on this too. Either a 'careful' DIY, or sending the cluster down.

Clive603 wrote:

Allegedly the dimensions are out on t'net somewhere but darned if I can find them.
Picture of a home made one comes up fairly easily, usually with associated comments about sizes and promises to post them but ...

Clive

As I've damaged the collets with the grinder while removing the steering knuckle, I've found myself doing the same run around today, trying to find these sizes...reading the same promises to post them.... and they're still not there!

My idea is a two piece thing - but not as elegant as what's been suggested in Clive's other post. First piece - simply a wooden shaft, turned to fit into the axle. My thinking is that it would need to fit a decent way into the axle to give a better alignment. This would also be long enough to extend out beyond the steering knuckle.

Second piece would essentially be a disc, turned to be the same diameter as the knuckle/carrier aperture (where the driveshaft and hub fits) with a hole in the middle precisely large enough to slide over the shaft piece.

Shaft goes into the axle; disc gets fitted on; and then slots into the knuckle only when the alignment is correct. I believe this is roughly the principle of the proper £1000 tool. For others who have successfuly done this job, does that two-piece idea sound like it should work?

So, while I could measure the hole in the knuckle casing easy enough, I don't have the internal dimensions of the axle casing yet.

As I'll be away on hols for a fortnight from this weekend, now would be an ideal time to get stuff ordered, or even to get something like this machined up locally.

So does anyone now have any further idea of the dimensions, or are they still just 'out there somewhere'?

Many thanks

(Edit - I reckon the axle aperture is 45mm diameter in the narrower section just behind the seal. Now just need to tidy up the knuckle/carrier hole to get a good measurement off that.)

Nice! thanks for taking the time to post the pics anyway - it's very useful to see a 'real world' example and not something the marketing dept has created.

I might actually consider that for the carriers/knuckles themselves, as they are portable and could be put in a bucket.

The question about rinsing, for me, concerned the actual axle casing and the ball joint 'yoke'. I couldn't leave that to soak in solution - without a lot more work, and a much bigger bucket! There's a lot of rust there, on the casing; around the air spring mounts; around the radius arm mounts etc. It's nothing structural, but I don't want it to get any worse, and it'll never be easier to treat than it is now, with everything to stripped back.

Perhaps I'll use a 'converter' there, and the bilt hamber stuff on the knuckles.

(Edit - you know what? I've just taken a closer look at that Deox stuff, and I've ordered a 1Kg bottle. If I don't use it here, I'm sure I'll use it again at some point. Looks like really good stuff.)

Thanks again guys,

I decided to go for genuine/breakers sensors, so they're on their way. £30 the pair, so fingers crossed.

On the rust remover question, I did look at that sort of product but decided it would make too much of a mess - unless I've understood it wrong? Do you need to wash/rinse the stuff off afterwards?

I've already orderd this stuff: fe123 on the basis of another recommendation, and because I've used similar before. Given that I'm not trying to do a full restoration here I'm hoping it will be better than the rust, and provide a little more longevity.

And finally.....yay! I spent another hour or so in the garage when I came home and managed to get the O/S ball joints out, and the remnants of the tapers out of the carrier/knuckle itself.

So that's more or less the (front) stripdown finished barring:

1. the old axle oil seals (leaving these in until I'm ready to put the new ones in - so I have a visual reference);
2. removing the old panhard rod bushes, and;
3. disconnecting the calipers and flexi hoses.

Next job will be attacking the worst of the loose/flaky rust before the rust converter comes up the road. But at least now I can go on holiday in the knowledge that I'm nearing the fun bit of rebuilding.

Thanks gents,

I knew from the preview that something was wrong with the images - so a double thanks for that. I must have done the first one right just by coincidence.

There actually was a split boot on that ball joint before, I just cut it away to stop it interfering with my attempts to split the taper. I knew it was a one-way trip anyway!

Thanks also for the replies about the sensors - that does make things a little easier.

New alignment collets required??

Managed to upload some pics of yesterday’s fun and games.

Overall score:
Ups – several I think;
Downs – maybe 4 (2 of which were entirely self-inflicted).

Armed with my new ball joint splitter it was time to dismantle the front steering knuckle assemblies.

I’d been soaking the hub bolts, and the hub to knuckle join in loosening oil for a few days, and when the time came the whole thing came out relatively easily – a combination of thumping a reversed brake disc, and a punch on the bolts themselves. I didn’t get any pictures of this bit – too busy with the lump hammer.

Unfortunately, as I said in the post above, the ABS sensors were in no mood to come out easily. Uh uh, no way. I am assuming they’ve been in there since the car rolled off the production line in 2000:

So the next step – getting this off the axle:

The ball joints were pretty stuck:

The nuts shifted, but there’s plenty of rust in there. And my ‘scissor splitter’ doesn’t open wide enough to include the housing and the nut, so the big grinder came out – top and bottom:

I count that as an ‘up’ that I managed to get the knuckle off OK. Then used my new ball joint splitter to take out the N/S top and bottom ball joints. I wouldn’t say they were an ‘easy’ shift, but they did come out: (this wasn’t how I successfully used the press on the lower one)

End result:

Pretty happy to have got to this stage. I now plan to brush off and degrease much of this, and the knuckle housing itself before treating it to some ‘rust converter’.

I then moved onto the O/S. More or less the same – stuck ABS sensor; few whacks with the hammer and the driveshaft was out; grinder onto the ball joint tapers. I haven’t tackled those balljoints yet. I’m optimistic based on the N/S experience, but if anything these are even more crusty than those were.

Forgot to mention the 'downs' - one is having to buy new ABS sensors; the other is that both steering stop bolts just snapped off in the housing :-( I'm thinking of just drilling a 10mm hole through both and putting in an M12 bolt. I can't see any reason why that wouldn't do as good a job.

So – two questions:
The first is just to carry forward the one from the post above – the decision between aftermarket and OEM ABS sensors – any views?
The second is that, in having to grind off the ball joints I did take away a little of where the height adjustment collets come through:

I’m guessing it’s this side of the knuckle/collet that actually makes the adjustment; lifting the hub assembly up into alignment? In which case I’ll need to use new collets and have a stab at the alignment?

Might manage to tackle the last two ball joints at some point this week, but after that it’s a two week holiday, so the car can rest on its axle stands just a little longer…….

Hi guys,
Managed to spend some more time on this today. I'll leave all the details and some other questions till I get a chance to post pics tomorrow, but I wanted to ask about ABS sensors as I'll need to order a pair. They did indeed put up a fight. Probably in there for 20 years. WSM said "prise out with a suitable lever"..... eh, no. Not a chance.

On a quick google (STC2786?) there's quite a difference in price from 'Allmakes' at about £20-ish, up to £110-120 for more OEM type. That's quite a jump and seemingly nothing in between. As I'll need two, buying OEM would be a significant expense.

Are these the kind of things where aftermarket works, or could I even look to get a set from a breaker and just buy the new copper bushes?

Thanks

(Edit - since posting this I've googled a lot more, and got a kind of predictable 'buy OEM/genuine' sort of consensus, with a few 'I bought cheaper ones, and they've been fine' comments thrown into the mix. It would be no surprise if the same thing was reflected here. I'll see what responses might come before making a decision. It's an odd one because experience tells me it's possible to take a calculated risk on a 'mechanical' pattern part. It might not last so long or whatever, but you'll usually get some use out of it. With something like this it might just not work straight out of the box and throw up error codes.....)

Thanks Clive,

"moderate verbal encouragement"...! I may not have all the tools, or an engineering workshop but I think I'm pretty well qualified on the 'verbal encouragement' side of things..... I'm sometimes amazed that the neighbours haven't brought the police round and had an ASBO slapped on me..... maybe I'll get better as I get older.... though there's not much sign of that working yet.

Just for fun I looked at the cost of hydraulic splitters - even on a big sale they're near £300. To be honest, I can't really see myself doing this job more than once, so that's just not feasible. I'll hope for the best that the C clamp will work, along with some well-chosen sweary words.

Just back on this alignment question. Paying ca £900 for a special tool is clearly out, but having looked at some pictures of it, is just looks like a metal disc, of a size/diameter to match the hub; coupled with a longer shaft to slot into the axle casing; and a handle to 'wiggle it about'. Unless it actually does something more that's not obvious from the pics.

Not having an engineering workshop, I can't rustle up a metal or delrin example, but I'm pretty sure I could make a wooden one if needed - clearly it would just be a way of giving a better visual sense of the alignment?

Like I said a couple of posts above, I'm probably over-thinking this at this stage. I just need to get on with it, and see which problems do present themselves. I was looking at hub carriers/steering knuckles on ebay though - just to get a sense of what my last resort options might be. Clearly doing that would likely lead to alignment questions - hence my wondering about a wooden alignment thingy....

TBH I struggled with this just recently, trying it for the first time.

I opened an account with imgur - free and seemingly well-regarded - and uploaded some photos there.

Then, when writing the post, and wanting to add a particular photo:
1) go to 'imgur' (or wherever)
2) click on the photo you want
3) it should give you a set of 5 or 6 links on the right hand side.
4) copy the 'direct link' one
5) come back to your post on the 'Pub'
6) click on the little photo icon in the 'edit bar' above the text box
7) paste the photo link in there...
8) I was then deleting the wording which said 'describe your photo' - or something like that, because it's usually obvious from the text.
9) do a 'preview' of the post just to check it's the right photo and that it's worked.

Hopefully that will work - but maybe others more experienced will jump in. It did take me a little trial and error.

Donald

Thanks Marty.
I'm amassing quite the pile of bits now... or at least I will have when all the couriers manage to deliver them.

I did decide to do what you've suggested and have ordered a new set of discs, partly so that I have something bigger to thump with the hammer.

A 4ft breaker bar....?! eek! I can see myself using a length of pipe on the 1/2 bar if it comes to that. Or maybe breaking out the 3/4 drive bar which I bought once to do the rear hub nuts on the VW camper. It also reminds me of one of my earliest mechanic-ing memories; trying to undo the flywheel nut on an old mini. The only tube I had to hand was the top half of my younger brother's 'swingball' toy. A mate standing by was in stitches laughing at me fighting with the nut while batting away a tennis ball on a bit of string from around my head!

I think one of my concerns is indeed splitting the knuckle from the tapers. I have a decent scissor ball joint splitter (not the big fella that's coming in the post) but I worry that in hammering that into place I might damage the collet?

I'll have a much better sense of it all once I start tackling it though. Not going to happen till next weekend now as I've just had a last minute chance to join a 4x4 "safari" around the Highlands next week - which means some last minute tinkering with the Defender this weekend..... At least leaving it that little bit longer means all the parts will have arrived, and the plusgas will have had more time to work.

Thanks very much. That makes sense - I'll give that a go. I have a decent selection of punches so I should be able to find one that's hefty enough, and allow me to hit the bolt head and not everything else in the vicinity.

Since posting the questions I've been reading up on this job, and come across some horror stories - ball joints that need to be attacked with a grinder; steering knuckles stuck onto the ball joint tapers; poor alignment leading to oil leaks.....

So, the only sensible approach is just to wait for the tools and parts to arrive and then just to get on with it - leaving the questions until they arise...... or hopefully not!

Evening all,
I've been making up a parts list for the job to pull the hubs and driveshafts ( going to try and remove them as one unit ) so that I can do the knuckle ball joints.

This means I have more questions I'm afraid....

1. The ABS sensor - is this supposed to just pull out, and would it just fit into the same place? Or should I order the sensor adapter and bush?

2. Lower balljoint - th workshop manual talks of adjusting the collet to lift or lower the knuckle into alignment using a special tool. Does this mean I should order new collets, and is there another non-special-tool way of aligning the hub and axle??

I'm expecting it to be a "little difficult" to separate the hub from the knuckle. I have got both discs off now, and I've been soaking the bolts and the join between the parts in plusgas/wd40. I read the tip about bolting on an old brake disc the wrong way around to apply some persuasion. But I don't have old discs to hand - the ones that have come off, even the hot one, look good enough to go back on so I don't want to abuse them this way. Any other tips and tricks?

Thanks as always.