Well, I got there….. and my O rings didn’t arrive!

To be honest, because of health reasons I’ve not been up to scratch since the new year, and without going into any detail, the main impact is a lack of proper sleep. So it’s better for me to do short bursts, rather than long days. So I was happy enough to leave it at lunchtime with just the coolant to drain, and the matrix screw to tackle. I did give it a good going over with Plusgas, so here’s hoping that will do its stuff overnight.

I can see that getting duct tape around the duct is going to be entertaining….

Thanks for the morale support so far.

Thank you both. Didn’t mean to give you unpleasant flashbacks Gd!

With two recommendations for cutting the duct, that’s where I’ll be going then.

It’s interesting that there are two ‘inaccessible’ screws on this job, and one hole seems to do both. I now understand why the larger holes have been made. They had seemed like overkill to me, and a bit cack-handed.

I should have a longer go at it tomorrow.

OK - time to fall back on the collective brain again.

I headed out this afternoon thinking that all I needed to do was drill access to the hidden ducting screw, move the ducting to one side, and access the matrix pipe clamp.... Eh, no. Maybe it's that I'm pussyfooting around and haven't gone all RRAAWWR! and medieval on the plastic parts, but I'm just not seeing how, even having followed the instructions, I can get good enough access to the matrix/pipes.

The pictures in the 'wayback' instructions don't include any looking down into the empty dash area, so I've marked up a couple here.

In the pic above you can just see the temperature sensor clip on one of the heater pipes. But immediately after I took this pic, I did manage to move the air duct a little further - down and back (at the bottom end) - but this brought it hard up against the plastic cable duct (which the instructions have not mentioned moving. Now that little gap has closed:

At the moment, unless I can get the duct to move considerably more out of the way, I don't see how I'll be able to do this job without taking the dash out. The plastic panel, that was drilled to access the ducting screw, needs to come out at least. I'd already loosened it to allow me to get the ducting this far.

I can, just get my hand in to the matrix at the moment, with my wrist flexed backwards, but there's no way I'd be able to get two hands in there, or have enough room to clean pipes or install O rings and manouvre pipes and clamp back into place.

I guess the only question I have is about the ducting. At the moment, if I pull it away from the heater at the top, it just slots right back into place. If that needs to "off", and I also need a hand or two to manouvre the lower end of it, then I'm going to need someone else to help. I don't see how I can access both ends of this duct at the same time, with sufficient grip/strength to move it. And finally, where am I putting it? The 'wayback' instructions say it can be 'swung away'... and at the moment, I'm not seeing how I can get to 'swing' it anywhere, far less out of the way.

Those instructions also mentioned that someone had removed the dash top to do this job, and thought it worthwhile. I must admit that's where my thoughts are at the moment.

(Edit - been doing some more searching too, and the other option is of course to get the multi-tool onto the duct. I saw one reference to a 'preferred' place to cut it - but the pic was missing. I don't "like" cutting things like that, even if it doesn't make an awful lot of material difference, it seems like a 'bodge' to me. But if needs must....)

Well, my O rings aren’t supposed to be here until Thursday or Friday, but I thought I’d just get on with it. If nothing else, the sooner I can get some plus-gas on the screw head the better, and the more likely it will behave itself.

I didn’t quite get that far, but I did get to the point where I now need to drill the hole to access the ‘secret screw’. As it’s my first time at this, and wanting to make it as stress free as possible for myself, I removed more of the stuff in the centre console to get some visibility in there (HEVAC, radio, and switch/surround). Only a few more screws and multi plugs, and I feel that I have a much better idea what’s ahead.

Tomorrow I’ll hopefully get the heating ducting removed and some plus-gas on the screw. I’ll leave that to do it’s stuff until the O rings are here.

I have at least got a glimpse of the matrix where the pipes and O rings are, so it’s no longer some hidden, mythical thing. Lots of red coolant around there too. Before I clean that off I’m going to see if there’s any evidence of it having come from the matrix itself, as opposed to the O rings - but I am banking on the O rings themselves.

Thanks for all the help.

Useful video, thanks - particularly as it’s some nice ‘high res’ images of the pipes and matrix.

Whatever you might put on the O rings would have two purposes surely - 1 not to degrade the O ring compound and 2 - allowing that little degree of necessary flex and movement.

Does RAVE say that a dab or red HOAT coolant is OK? Would a dab of silicone grease not do the same thing?

I can’t say I’m looking forward to it, but it’s obviously the access problems rather than the technicality of the job itself.

Thanks Gd,
Lots of good reading on those links. I’ve already made an order for the genuine O rings.

Reading that, and other stuff it occurs to me that the O ring seal was probably disturbed when I was fighting with the heater pipes in the engine bay, doing the head gaskets - and it’s barely done 10 miles since then…..

Another consideration is that I am planning a carpets and seats swap but I really wanted just a few months where I could drive the thing before getting stuck into the next job…. so O ring change is definitely the first step and see if that can get me the couple of months of fun/reward that I think I need right now.

Ho Hum… I was prepping my car for it’s overdue MOT. Parked in the sunshine, opened the driver’s side door, and noticed some little ruby-red drops glistening on the carpet….. After all I’ve been through recently I wasn’t a happy bunny.

How “robust” are the matrices really? This car is 22 years old, but only 78k miles. Is this liable to be a simple O ring job, or is it usually 50/50 whether it’s the matrix too?

Contemplating cancelling the MOT test (Wednesday) because I won’t get the parts in time. I’d hate to ‘chance it’ and then find the car stranded and needing recovery. Guessing the ‘matrix bypass’ is just a U bend of 19 or 21mm pipe, and that this gets done in the engine bay?

How long would a ‘drippy’ situation last? For all the use I’ve given this in the last few months (or year) it might have been leaking for ages, and it’s just that it caught my eye this time in the sunlight.

Off to research O ring and matrix changes.

Indeed. I had all sorts of deeply frustrating and annoying sunroof shenanigans yesterday. This included an unplanned cassette out/cassette in, and an even more unplanned removal of the sunshade and its clips (though they behaved OK).

To be honest I don’t know if they are C or E clips strictly speaking, but it’s the 2.3mm ones we need for the sunroof. They are just too tiny for anyone with normal sized fingers to work with in a properly controlled way.

Thanks David - I'll compare that against what I have and see what I think.

I "think" I used Arbomast in my new seal, and that is supposed to remain permanently flexible, so it's just possible I'd be able to get the current 'new' seal off in good condition. I do also have two used ones, which as far as I can see are undamaged.

I'll tinker a bit more, cleaning and lubing stuff, and see where that takes me.

I had ordered a complete cassette from a breaker, but I’ve put that ‘on hold’. Once I saw just how good mine was I baulked at the idea of paying good money for something which would probably be more worn, or in poorer condition.

I’ve a couple of other half-thoughts for potential causes - to do with the placing or alignment of the glass onto the metal sunroof frame, but that would take annotated pictures to demonstrate or explain properly.

Booked for an MOT next Wednesday, so I either need to get this sorted, or pray for a dry day!

Hi folks,

Pete - same story really. New seal from Island; had to trim a bit off the end once fitted. And, until now I thought I’d done a reasonable job of getting the seal on nice and tight….

Gd and DavidAll - it’s occurred to me that you can help with your spare sunroof glasses, even if they don’t get shipped up to the far north. If they still have seals on them, and aren’t buried in the darkest recesses of the garage, would you be able to measure them for me - front to back, across/inthe middle of the glass? Maybe with a measurement for gross size (seals uncompressed), and then with the seals compressed?

I think I measured the window aperture in the roof at 490mm (but I was “clinging on” and didn’t have a stepladder).

I then removed the sunroof again, and that measures at almost exactly the same, certainly once you allow for seal compression. Which leaves me thinking what’s the target I’m going for? Exactly the same as the aperture, a little bigger, or smaller?

I know the glass is supposed to be adjusted in the frame, but that talks more about vertical adjustment than fore/aft. Is there any fore/aft adjustment? I don’t think there can be given that the forward-most mounting bracket has the pin on it which engages with the glass/frame. There’s no play there that I can see.

I wonder if I loosened all the 8 bolts holding the cassette in place, if I could nudge the whole thing forward a month - compressing the front of the seal, and giving more leeway at the back…? Clutching at straws?

Having looked at your website Simon, it does look like a 'no brainer' - but only if I can get fuel reasonably close by.

Someone - possibly GilbertD - did post a link to a map of LPG suppliers a little while ago. Any chance that could be posted again - if only to remind me that, where I am, a conversion doesn't make so much sense.

Ta.

PS - welcome David !

Thanks guys,

Yep, I'm up near Inverness, so not very handy for Surrey, or Peterborough - though I do appreciate the offers. I think this would be an ideal way to confirm my suspicions, but probably just as easy to peel of the 'new' seal and put one of the old ones back on, taking more care to get the seal fully 'home'. If this is the issue, it's obviously only a marginal difference. I did have to use a little force to push the glass in/out of the aperture - nothing excessive, but it's just clearly too much for the mechanism. I know that if I were to keep trying to use it like that, something would break, and I'd have a bigger problem.

The EAS - to be honest I don't know for sure (yet), but clearly something to do with the valve block or driver pack. I copped out and bought a refurbed block/driver from an ebay seller I've used and spoken to in the past. I just fitted that and all the problems disappeared.

They are keen to get the old one back, and offer a little refund for that. I had thought of hanging on to it as a spare, but on the other hand they'll test it when they first get it and might help me by providing some more detail into what seems to have gone wrong.

I suspect that when I rebuilt the block I probably used some lube on some of the O rings. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing - I'm really familiar with O rings in service..... in a scuba environment. It would only have been a smear, but maybe that would be enough. Or it could be the driver pack? Anyway, I'll hopefully be able to update at some point.

I get to feeling I’m going to need to make a pact with the Devil to get this damn thing to work…..

I had the cassette out of the car earlier. With no glass in it, the mechanism moves beautifully smoothly, with both sides perfectly aligned with each other.

Put the glass in (cassette out of the car) and it works beautifully too.

Put them both back in the car and no…. (see “pact with Devil”).

As the glass is put in from above it’s initially outside the aperture. The winding mechanism isn’t strong enough to pull the back of the glass down ‘inside’ the car. Once I’d climbed up and pushed the glass gently down into the car, then the mechanism works well - the glass retracts back inside the roof. Then it comes back out again, but stops at the point where the ‘tilting’ action is trying to lift the back of the glass panel “outside” the car.

I think (could be of very little value) that when I refurbished the glass and put a new seal onto it, I added some sealant/bonding agent into the seal before putting that around the glass. I now wonder whether the whole thing is just marginally too big (back to front) and providing too much resistance for the motor/mechanism to overcome.

No problem, just get another new seal, trim off the old (new) one, and make very sure it’s fitted as close in to the glass as possible. Unfortunately though these part numbers seem to be NLA - EEQ100400 or STC171. That must be fairly recent as it’s not that long since I got a new one….

Does anyone know of a source of these? Or an alternative part number? Failing this I’ll just need to cut an inch or so off the end and see if I can buy something similar by the metre from the likes of Woolies trim.

On the plus side, my car left the garage today for the first time in about 5 or 6 months! All warning lights went out! Sitting nice and level on its springs, brakes really sharp, almost ready for an MOT…. if I could just get the sunroof to play ball.

Edit - finding a similar patterned extrusion will not be as easy as I first thought. Three suppliers I looked at have something close, but not close enough. Maybe if I sent them a bit.

But I have found that I have two ‘used’ ones in the shed. I think that’s my way forward if there’s no source of new ones. At least Ikd be able to say conclusively what the problem was.

The question is as simple as the title suggests. Does anyone have a good idea what size I should order for the sunroof E clips?

As you may know there are two used on each side as part of fixing the glass to the mechanism, but they are tiny, and being springy have an exceptionally high tendency to launch themselves into the darkest recesses of the car, no matter how careful you’re being.

Unfortunately also, on my vernier callipers the jaws are too wide to fit into the grooves that the clips engage with. I can get that it’s a 6mm overall diameter; I think the pin OD is 4mm; but I’m guestimating if I say 3 or 3.5mm groove diameter.

I realise this is a bit of a specific query - and I could just order several clips in the closest sizes - they don’t cost much. But I thought I’d ask anyway.

Edit - In the meantime I have ordered a couple of little bags of 2.3mm and 3.5mm clips, where those sizes correspond to the smaller, groove diameter. I have an idea 2.3 might be too small, and possibly 3.5mm be too big… going to see if I can find some 3mm ones somewhere.

I’m pretty sure I had to cut at least one of mine in half. This allowed me to get something meaty like vice grips/mole grips on to the bottom section (where the issue was).

I think they were more or less just bonded in by the rust on the axle mount, and not at all as easy as I expected given that I was removing a plastic part that’s just held in place by wire clips. On one of my fronts, I had to get a hacksaw blade in between the bag and the axle mount and cut off the lug.

Are you stuck top or bottom? If it’s bottom, can you get some sort of drift or bar onto the D section that fits into the axle and “tap” it upwards. When I say ‘tap’…..

Very timely post. Because the plastic around much of my dash switchgear is starting to “go off” badly (covered in a soft, sticky residue) I was wondering about replacement switch surrounds, including around the window switches.

As you say, many are 94-02, which did strike me as odd, as I thought there was a facelift ca. 2000my.

So I’m afraid I can’t answer the question, but will be interested in the answer.

I know Turner Engineering would supply the engine, and you could have some confidence that it was done well, but I didn’t think they did any of the garage work?

Yeah, it was hard to get any sense of where the hissing was coming from. I was at the back of the car, and I could tell it was ‘driver’s side’ - but couldn’t be any more precise.

I dislike working with brakes and brake fluid, but I suppose there’s not much more involved than syringing as much as possible out of the reservoir and then sticking lots of blue roll around it to catch any residual fluid when levering it out? I am wondering about the accumulator. If it’s the original it would be 22 years old by now, but I’ve no way of knowing whether it is or not.

Can I come at the suspension question from a different direction and focus on the behaviour at the back. With new Dunlop sensors, just calibrated, new air springs, I’d have expected the back to behave perfectly - not rising up beyond the target height, jigging up and down, and then dropping down to the bumstops. Could this also be linked to the valve block? I can’t see what else it could be unless there’s a problem with the ECU?

I must admit it didn’t occur to me last night to check whether there were any errors showing on the Nano.

Thanks - every day’s a school day with this car.

I’ll maybe try re-bleeding first, or see how the car goes once I get it tested, but will also research the suggestion above. Is it complicated to take the reservoir off?

I’m sure I have one of those ‘toy things’ somewhere…. I’ll try and track it down and try that tomorrow.

There was something unusual doing the calibration. Because the bags were empty, and connected, lifting the body caused a vacuum in the bags. Except… lifting and raising the back was causing a hissing sound somewhere, and because I was working alone, it was impossible to be working the jack, and listening for the noise at the same time.