rangerovers.pub
The only place for a coil spring is up Zebedee's arse
Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

Yeah they're notched. I used an extension bar to get them out and back in. Lining the hole up was the hard work. Tryna hold the shock and jiggle it whilst looking on the other side eyeing up when it's inline. I didn't take the wheels off which made it a bit harder as i had to reach around. Passenger side was ok as i could fit it all from underneath. Drivers side, you cant get your hand up to put the bolt in due to the obstructions so you have to do it through the liner.

had to put the bottom mount on first to get it to angle correctly for the top bolt but the shocks just kept expanding. Unlike the ones that came off that would stay where you compressed them too. That's why i had to use a pry bar to push it back down on the passenger side to line the hole up. Would've been quicker with 2 people. Took me about 90 mins all in. 15 of which was spent effing and blinding because i'd put the nut down somewhere and couldn't find it.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2312

Not wanting to hijack your thread BPSM, but on the subject of Polybushes v original rubber and longevity, here's one of my panhard rod polybushes. These were genuine Polybush (not the Britpart orange ones) and were fitted to the car in August 2012. Distance covered 19400 miles.
I'll be interested to see how the new Lemforders stand up.
enter image description here

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

You saying that's a good thing or bad thing?

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2312

blueplasticsoulman wrote:

You saying that's a good thing or bad thing?


Neither! (well the one in the pic is a bad thing)
Just an observation on how long the poly's stand up (or don't). The orange one's are the softer "road" ones, compared to the black competition ones.
My blue car's still riding on polys fitted in March 2010 20,000 miles ago. No rattles, clanks or steering issues.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

I was all for fitting standard bushes until the knob head at the first garage cocked it all up, ripped them to shreds and caused me no end of grief and wasted cash.

I've had standard bushes put on the front radius arms cause the man at the corner garage swore he could do it right. Which he did but at a cost of £100 + bushes.

Since then, i discovered pretty much all the bushes were garbage so decided to replace them all. If i'd have known they were all like that to start with, i'd have definitely bought the poly kit for the whole car. Would've worked out cheaper in the long run.

I figure with Polys, once the prep is done, you can replace them yourself in no time at all whenever you want. No need to pay for pressing them in/out and you know the job is done right.

My panhard polys are the black Bearmach 2 piece ones at £12 a set delivered. Trailing arms are FloFlex and were £30. Even if i only got a year out of them, the parts cost half the price of the labour to fit 1 pair of radius arm bushes.

Polybush gets my vote but probably down to the fact i've been burned by dodgy garage work.

Think we've got a bit off the original topic of the "Tracking" but i guess this is all related as the bushes were actually the reason why it wouldn't track. And since it's suspension related, here's a new shock next to the old pitted one.

enter image description here

Member
Joined:
Posts: 662

Problem with polybushes is that they basically don't cope with roll or its asymmetrical cousins twist and skew.

P38 has pure leading and trailing link suspension with solid axles. Calling the front links radius arms is just a different name.

Consider replacing all the bushes with solid pins in metal bearings. Suspension will go up and down OK but it can't roll, twist or skew without staring things. Not even with rose joints at the arm to body connection. The rubber bushes provide the flexibility to allow such movement. The long links mean that the axles have to divine their connection to the car at considerable distance but do allow the body to float along fairly independently relative to axles and minimise the twisting movements in the bushes. The long, rubber bushed links means the inherent transverse location between car and axles is very poor. Hence the Panhard Rod links front and back which tie the axles to the car from side to side.

Panhard Rod links tie things together side to side pretty well but the geometry is inherently infelicitous and pure rotation at the bush is impossible. The longer the link the less the angles involved but either the pin has to shift away from central within the bush or the rod itself needs to distort. Polybushes do have tiny bit of inherent flexibility but its far less than rubber. Only reason you can get away with them is the sheer length of the arms which minimise the the angles involved. It doesn't begin to work as designed but at least the bushes don't tear out in nothing flat. At the front the Panhard rod ones are most seriously overloaded and will fail first. I'd be unsurprised to discover that the bushes actually wear sloppy quite quickly so things can wobble around enough to cope with geometric variations but not so much that the steering can't cope. Behaviour of the compress to fit axle front mounting bushes is interesting as it stops the sort of horrid front end behaviour associated with old fashioned leaf sprung dead axle cars. Imagine P38 on a Series Land Rover suspension set up. Yikes! maybe not.

Not quite so bad at the back because the trailing link has some inherent flexibility to help reduce strain on the bushes. No direct steering loads either.

When you get down to it the whole Range Rover suspension arrangement is a very clever and sophisticated design despite its apparent simplicity. Polybushes are nearly as bad as coil springs for mucking up suspension really. Pressing on in a coil sprung, polybushed P38 with uprated dampers is probably an "interesting" experience.

The whole polybush thing comes from track racing where cars are set up with hard suspension to minimise movement and, especially, roll. No issues with geometrically proper systems like double wishbones, watt linkages et al which work fine with solid pins and rose joints anyway but the minor compliance of polys makes assembly easier. But when you come to saloon cars and less geometrically correct systems the inevitable compliance of rubber works agains the rock hard suspension set-up hence polybushes do have real advantages.

Clive

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

I see you're on the fence then Clive! lol

Google will tell us that Poly bushes will last 5 minutes. Google also tells us Poly bushes will last forever. I find reading reading one search result quickly contradicts the next and usually to the opposite end of the scale. Both can't be wrong! Orangebean claims he has 7 year old Poly bushes still in good working order. So Scientifically which is it? No-one appears to be able to say that polys last as long or longer or perform as good or better than OEM bushes. As to which feels better, again no one seems to be able to give a definitive answer either way. I'd say that was down to preference. Albeit if not perhaps as the manufacturer originally intended.

A get together to drive other peoples Range Rovers would be a great comparable test of the differences although we couldn't put the question of lifespan to bed. Range Rover orgy keys in a bowl anyone?

The father in law currently has problems with his car. He's booked in at his local garage in December to have new bits and bobs fitted. I'll look forward to driving his as a comparison as he's all standard.

I'm not promoting polybushes by the way as i have no real benchmark. I only know whats worked for me. At the moment i can say with confidence that it's like riding a magic carpet on the moon as opposed to a bin bag on an escalator. Not that it drove horribly to begin with. I just feel i'ts gone in the right direction and drives solidly as a 4x4 should but wafts along gently on air when required. I did each change on it's own so i could feel the before and after difference in the component i was changing. The one that suprised me was the front panhard rod as when i took it off, there was nothing wrong at all with the oem bushes. I just decided in for a penny in for a pound and put the polys in. Without a doubt a significant improvement.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2312

blueplasticsoulman wrote:
Orangebean claims he has 7 year old Poly bushes still in good working order.


Well, to be strictly accurate, I said that the ones on the blue car weren't showing any symptoms of wear. Not taken it to bits to examine though
The ones on the black car were mostly shot though, with a few knocks and clanks, but no wheel shimmy or anything scary.
Both pretty much same age and mileage, neither offroaded although blue one was used as a builders van before I got it.

So my cars are sitting either side of the fence in terms of the durability of polys. The difference in ride harshness is noticeable though and the Lemforders are quieter, but I fitted new Boges to replace Monroe Adventurers at the same time, which obviously have considerable influence on the ride as well.

Blue one definitely handles sharp directional changes at speed better (more controlled body roll), but that's on Koni's which are probably the key influence on that!

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2448

Polys squeak. You probably wouldn't notice inside a p38 cabin but to my mind, if they squeak then something isn't right.

Oh, and science. Clive covered that 😀

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

Terrafirma shocks in bin. OEM ones fitted.

Dont ask. Lol.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 487

blueplasticsoulman wrote:

Terrafirma shocks in bin. OEM ones fitted.

Dont ask. Lol.

Why did you...Oh, never mind! :-)

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

well since you ask.

We were discussing poly bushes and shocks further up the thread. Talking about durability and ride comfort etc. I've been going through my whole suspension and everything i've changed has made a great improvement.

I saw some New Terrafirma shocks going cheap on ebay so i bought them after reading quite alot of good things on Google. I fitted the rears the other day and all seemed well. I fitted the fronts last night and all i can say is "NO, NO, NO, NO!!!!!!"

Absolutely 100% dreadful! Do not fit these to a P38. You can feel absolutely everything.

Luckily the father in law just happened to have 4 brand new OEM shocks in his boot ready to be fitted. I've quickly relieved him of these this morning and have just finished fitting them on the car.

So i have 4 brand new Terrafirma shocks for sale if anyone's interested? lol

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2312

Ah, I thought when you said you were putting on Terrafirma shocks that you might not get the airbed ride you were seeking, but I didn't want to hurt your feelings by saying so. You were so pleased with your bargain that it wouldn't have been right to rain on your parade.
I had Terrafirma's on my old Hybrid- boy were they stiff, even on coil springs and a 4" lift.
Ah well, your parade is now thoroughly wet now. Shame- they were cheap.
You'll find the Boges are a magic carpet ride. If you have to replace your father-in-laws, Island are currently the cheapest supplier I could find.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

FFS.

As if you've previously fitted Terrafirma's and didnt enlighten us. Mind you, experience is sometimes best earned than given.

Yeah i'll have to replace the ones i robbed this morning.

Stiff doesn't begin to describe. I don't think the cars heavy enough to compress them. Felt like i'd nailed the chassis to the axle. lol. I suppose the giveaway is that they were ridiculously hard to compress to fit, whereas the standards just push in and stay there.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 167

Haven't noticed a problem with my front Terrafirma shocks. Just tightened the front end up a bit. I will have the rears off you if you want to sell them.
Rob.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 2312

blueplasticsoulman wrote:

FFS.
As if you've previously fitted Terrafirma's and didnt enlighten us.


Well, you'd already bought them by then...
My Terrafirma experience wasn't relevant enough to a P38. They were on my old Hybrid, which had an 80s RR Classic chassis, on coils, with a 4" lift.

Member
avatar
Joined:
Posts: 8106

blueplasticsoulman wrote:

As if you've previously fitted Terrafirma's and didnt enlighten us.

I mentioned back in post #60 (at the bottom of the last page) that some people had said they made the ride a bit hard but you've just confirmed what I'd heard. I suppose if someone is putting them on a car that has been converted to coils they've never experienced the magic carpet ride and would think they were an improvement. I've got a pair of secondhand front Boges if you want to try those Robbo. I replaced my rears as one had leaked and figured that I should probably do the fronts as well but what I took off and what I put on didn't seem any different. I doubt there's that much life left in them though.

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

PM sent to Robbo. Don't be stealing my sale Gilbert. :-)

Member
avatar
Joined:
Posts: 8106

Maybe it depends on what else is on the car. You've found that a combination of Terrafirmas and polys don't play well together but maybe they are OK with original bushes. I've got orange polys and Boge and that combination seems to work fine. If Robbo tries my front Boges then he can decide if he wants a pair of those or your Terrafirmas for the rear. I'm not selling them though, they are just taking up space in the garage in case I, or anyone else, needs them. Like I say, I doubt there's much life left in them as I suspect they are the originals so will have done the best part of 300,000 (ish, as I don't remember exactly when I changed them).

Member
Joined:
Posts: 784

Not on Poly's. Front radius are standards and I haven't done the trailing arms yet. That's the weekend job. Only Poly's fitted at the moment are Panhard bushes front and back.