I have been successful with a LH drill bit 2 or 3 times out of 100ish tries. It’s worth the try as you need to drill it for your easy out anyway.

Been busy on the red one getting a working LPG system in it. It's been a bit slow as I've also been playing with my other toy, a 21 foot powerboat with a 200hp inboard engine, but that's a whole different story. It has had an LPG system on it previously but I doubt it ever worked properly. The tank, a piddly little 70 litre toroidal, was fitted the wrong way round so the pickup was at the front meaning that when getting low on gas and going uphill, it would stop if you put your foot down. A bonus was the tank was over half full but that did make it heavy so I had to lift it with my engine crane to rotate it. I've since arranged with Romanrob to take the tank that he is removing from his but the 70 litre one will do for the time being. The gas feed pipe was 6mm copper, marginal on a P38, and run down the RH side of the car. It appeared that the previous install had all been installed on the RH side of the car, wedged in amongst the fusebox, ECU, coolant reservoir and brake modulator. Quite why when there is an open space on the other side?

I'm putting a single point system in it. Even though it isn't the preferred modern multipoint, it's the same as on mine, I understand how to set them up and I've got spares. I'd previously sorted out the worst soldering I have ever seen in my life at the ECU, tidied that up and added the extra wires I needed for the LPG system. The ECU is fitted and wired, the switch installed and everything ready for the rest of the system.

I was at a memorial for a guy I used to work with yesterday (who, worryingly, was 4 years younger than me) but when I got home decided I'd get stuck in. I'd already fitted the vaporiser and filter/shutoff valve I just needed something to get the gas to them. Ran a new gas feed in using 8mm polypipe, far easier to work with than copper, clipped it all in place and got it connected at both ends. While I was under there, dragged out the old copper feed pipe. So today I picked up 10 feet of heater hose and connected up the coolant hoses, plumbing the vaporiser in series with the heater. Tried powering up the system with power to the shutoff valve disconnected so I could check the unions for leaks. No leaks thankfully.

All that left was the mixer and vapour plumbing. Fitted the mixer, connected the hoses and, after checking everything again, fired it up. On petrol it was still running the same as before, so, with the laptop plugged into the LPG ECU, switched over to gas and it promptly stalled. Started again and managed to get the revs up and at 2,000 rpm it was running smoothly but a bit lean. Adjusted the vaporiser until the mixture corrected and called it a result. Just got to tidy up the wiring and put it in corrugated sleeving.

At this point realised that it's almost ready for an MoT so did a few checks. It needs a pair of wipers, the rear washer reconnecting to stop the screenwash dribbling into the boot from the top of the tailgate and a set of tyres. The newest of the ones on it is dated 2003 and all 4 are perished and cracking. The rears are Pirelli Scorpions which go flat after about 3 days yet the Goodyear Wranglers on the front, despite being noticeably cracked, still hold air. I wouldn't fancy driving any distance on any of them though. Then it can go in for MoT and I'll find out what else it needs......

Been away for looong due to health issues, and obviously had not time for her majesty.
Took it out of hibernation last week, had been three months almost. Fired right up (it was on hold charge), settle right straight as it should be, all well! Still has the hesitation/misfiring issue when very hot, but I did not get around to do the coil.

I did manage to refit the bumper - it was broken due to a stupid mishap - which took 7 weeks to "my guy" after he begged and promised 2-3 days .... oh well.

During my convalescence, I suffered visions of a nightmare I have not owned yet, that would be an early Def (Tdi), a 90/110 or a late Series, in random order of desire. I will open a separate OT topic to gather my senses, if I manage to ...

Not so much today but over the last couple of weeks. Got the LPG system in on the red one and calibrated it but as it has no MoT or tax wasn't able to confirm it is spot on yet. Looking at the price of a set of decent quality 255/55 x 19 tyres it needs on the L322 wheels and having a big expense coming up next month (more details nearer the time), tried my favoured part worn tyre man who came up with a set of 4 matching Pirellis with a decent amount of tread, dated 2019, at £50 each, so went for them. Took it in for MoT giving myself plenty of time so I could have the laptop plugged in to monitor the running on LPG on the way there. Also checked the speedo with the larger wheels and found it to be reading 1 mph low at 50 mph (instead of the 5 mph high that they do as standard) so that needs a minor tweak. Got the tester to give it a good going over to see if he could find anything that I'd missed and he couldn't, so got a pass (after a fail for one side repeater indicator bulb blown). The only other thing I could find is, despite me replacing the vacuum hose, the cruise control still doesn't work.

My mate the mobile AC man called round and gassed it so the AC works perfectly. Got an intermittent book on the HEVAC which the Nanocom tells me is the heater matrix sensor, so that will need a squirt of contact cleaner in the plug. So we used it last Sunday. Goes well, running on the LPG that was in the tank when we got it and everything seemed fine, except for two things. Parked it, got out of it and could smell petrol. Not only that but there was a trail on the ground behind it. Looked underneath and there was a clean patch on the front of the tank where the leak is above the tank and it's running down off it. Opened the bonnet, pulled the fuel pump relay and set it to start on LPG so it could be driven home. I've had this before on a number of cars where the steel pipes running above the tank rust through and start to leak. The outlets on the pump rust too so I ordered a new pump in anticipation of it needing one.

The other thing was that the temperature gauge was sitting higher than I would like so when we got home I plugged in the Nanocom. 113 C is possibly a little on the high side even when the ambient is 28 C, so that needs investigating too.

Yesterday, armed with a new fuel pump, some 8mm OD copper tube, a length of good quality fuel hose and some decent stainless clips, got stuck into dropping the tank. While the outlet pipe was rusty but not leaking, not only was the return leaking in 2 or 3 places along it's length, as soon as I lowered the tank, the pipe on the pump was so badly rusted it just fell off.

Tank out, remains of the old pump out, new pump in and connected the replacement copper tubes (no doubt someone will now tell me that Ethanol eats copper....).

Note I've marked the outlet with a bit of tape so I don't connect them the wrong way round.....

Tank back in, connected the pipes up and turned the ignition on so I could check the joints for leaks, nope, all good. Tried to start the car and would it start? No chance, cranked over nicely but didn't even attempt to fire. Had I forgotten to connect the electrical plug to the new pump? No, I definitely remember plugging it in and hearing it click in fully. Had I been supplied with a duff pump? Does this mean after putting it all back I've got to drop the tank again? Could it be nothing to do with the pump and it is another fault entirely? So opened the bonnet and poked the Schrader valve on the fuel rail, zilch, no fuel pressure. Just as I was about to scream and start the task of dropping the tank again I remembered. I'd taken the fuel pump relay out hadn't I.... Put that back in, turned the key and she fired up on petrol. Checked underneath, no leaks, switched over to gas and it carried on running happily.

So left it running to get warm and see what temperature it runs at. By the time the gauge had reached the mid point, the Nanocom was showing 103 C. Tried the time honoured test of poking the Prog button on the HEVAC to put the heater and blowers on full and it didn't move. So not a clogged radiator then. I've already fitted a brand new Airtex water pump, so not that which only leaves the thermostat or the viscous coupling so I've ordered a stat as that is a cheap option and will see what, if any, difference that makes. I did think afterwards that I'll also compare the hose runs to it with mine as it wouldn't surprise me one little bit if it is connected wrong judging by the other things I've found on it.

To be continued.....

I've just come back after my first trip towing our new caravan. It was a 300 mile round trip. The P38 is a great tow car. As per recommendations I locked the suspension at motorway height & engaged sport mode. Being able to drop the suspension to access mode really helps when hitching & unhitching. The only downside was fuel consumption of just under 12mpg rather than the usual 16mpg.

We should currently be on a caravan site in Wales for the next two weeks but curtailed our trip & returned home as after our first four night trip away in the caravan my wife has decided that she hates caravanning. It wasn't such a negative experience for me although I appreciate her concerns re communal showers & walking to a toilet block in the rain etc. There is also more physical effort & hassle involved in hitching/unhitching, loading/unloading & moving the van than I expected.

We have been talking about getting a caravan for years so I'm pleased that we have tried it then decided that it's not for us. We deliberately bought a relatively cheap twenty year old van with the full knowledge that if it didn't work out that we could probably recoup all or most of our money by selling on the van.

Had you bought a newer caravan, you'd have had your own shower and toilet but then you've got to empty the toilet contents and having a shower in something the size of a wardrobe so zero elbow room isn't a lot of fun either. Trying to sleep when it is hot and humid is no fun either. Been there, done it and wouldn't want to do it again.

A mate recently spent £40k on a second hand, top of the range, motorhome. Beautifully made and fitted out with everything you would want including air con. Problem with that is once he gets where he's going, he's stuck there even if he has put a bike rack on the back so he can go out within pedalling distance. He's still got to empty the waste water tank and his wife has to wash all the bedclothes, towels, etc. As I said to him, £40k will buy you a lot of hotel rooms and the charges at sites with fresh water and electricity hook up is roughly the same as a cheap hotel room anyway. Not to mention that with a motorhome he needs somewhere to keep it and it still needs tax, MoT, insurance and servicing. We agree to differ as it suits some but not others. It certainly isn't for me.

As you have now discovered, fuel consumption on a P38 is affected most by aerodynamics. I've found that when towing a car transporter trailer with a low car such as an E Type Jag on it, fuel consumption is barely affected. While you may use more going uphill, you use less when the trailer is pushing you downhill so it averages out. As soon as something like a big box trailer that is higher than the car is attached to the back, even when empty so with very little extra weight, it hammers the economy.

However, a new thermostat for the red P38 has just been delivered so that is today's job and, assuming my neighbour is available, I'm going to get the blocks out and calibrate the EAS too.

New thermostat fitted and while underneath noticed a lot of oil on the front crossmember. Appeared to be from one of the oil cooler hose connections which I found was less than finger tight! Took both hoses off, fitted new O rings and did them up tight. Took it out for a run and the Nanocom reported it running at 97 degrees, so cooler but not by much, but the dash gauge wasn't even reaching the mid point. That means one of two things, the dash sender is under reading or the ECU sender is reading high. Something to keep a close eye on.

Then got it on the flat with a pair of jacks and calibrated the EAS. Settings were miles out with huge variations from side to side so now it is sitting level, at the correct heights and doesn't keep moving up and down at the front as it tries to settle to wildly differing settings.

So that is the red one about finished, so I suppose giving it a wash comes next......

Forgive my ignorance , if indeed it is ignorance, but why do folk convert P38 fuel systems from petrol to LPG ?...Is it me ? surely the cost of installation must take a lot of fuel saving miles to recover the outlay ? These animals are not daily long distance drivers are they ? they where never built for that, where they ? . FYI, I converted a Mastercraft V8 boat to LPG and quickly realised I'd followed a trend rather than a commercialy sensible investment and limited my refueling points ..plus it devalued the vessel on sale as it limited it's market attraction. Richard/GilbertD , you clearly are a convert" and an experienced commercially sensible soul, who's opinion I value..so if you was me, would you convert my beast ? plus switching back to petrol when needed puzzles me.... Am I missing something ?

hi Les, im not shore where you live but in Australia it's expensive to convert to gas, like 3500 dollars with gov subsidies and yes that's a lot of gas to recover that Finacial outlay, so here it is as you say a trend but it is alot cheaper in England apparently but the gas is hard to find as you say.

Thanks Mad-As...FYI..I'm in the UK (North West).. be good to hear from others , before I dismiss the idea...FYI, I am a "factory spec" man and has improved attraction and £ returns on classic cars I've refurbished..

Lez wrote:

These animals are not daily long distance drivers are they ? they where never built for that, where they ?

For most people they aren't but for me, mine is a daily driver and I do a lot of longish journeys (180 mile round trip to do tomorrow), both in the UK and Europe. I am averaging in the region of 25-30,000+ miles per year in mine. My partner is from Latvia and we will visit her parents at least once a year which results in a 4,000 mile round trip and going over to a mate's place in SW France is a regular trip too (a mere 9 hours from getting off the ferry at Calais). The P38 is the only car I have ever owned where I can drive for 24 hours, stopping only every couple of hours for fuel and food with maybe a couple of hours stop for sleep and get out at the other end still capable of walking and without feeling tired. In comparison, after an hour in my partners Mercedes SLK280, I get backache. The P38 is the perfect long distance cruiser. It is comfortable (one owner described his as his 140kph armchair) and will sit at 75-80mph for hours on end, not that you can do that in the UK as you will run into roadworks or traffic jams every half hour or so, but you can in Europe. Even with a couple of tonnes on a trailer on the back, mine will still sit at 70mph all day long.

This was last December.....

Where I hit the magical half million miles but am up to 516,600 now and will be over 517k by the end of the week.

As for the cost of conversion and getting a return on the investment, it isn't as attractive these days as it was. The likes of MFG (Motor Fuels Group) taking over multiple filling stations has increased the cost of LPG so it is no longer the cheap option it was. Still cheaper than running on petrol but not as good as it was when it was under half the price of petrol. Not in the short sighted UK anyway. Here stations are removing LPG when the tanks come up for certifying yet in most European countries (although the bulk of those are the ones charging silly money and then saying that they sell very little so it isn't worth it), LPG filling stations are increasing in number. My step daughter lives in the Netherlands and when she first went there 2 years ago the two filling stations near to her house didn't do LPG. They have both had the forecourts updated and now have EV charge points and LPG as well as petrol and diesel. In Germany you will find LPG, CNG and H2 pumps alongside the petrol and diesel and Shell have recently opened an alternative fuels only filling station in the Netherlands with LPG, CNG, H2, and EV charge points but no petrol or diesel. In Poland, Lithuania and Latvia there are LPG only filling stations, a tank, a pump and a card machine, no staff so no overheads other than the cost of the electricity to run it with the card machine using 4G to authorise transactions and also to report when the tank is getting low and needs refilling. It is also cheaper in Europe. The only place in the UK where it is still cheap is in and around Birmingham where it is about 70p per litre, in the rest of the country it is £1 or more. You'll use more than petrol as the energy density is around 80% but when you are paying around 50 Euro cents a litre in Belgium, Poland, Lithuania, Latvia, Italy (and only slightly more in the Netherlands and Germany), etc and even in France where it is 1 Euro a litre at the motorway services and 80 cents at the supermarkets when petrol is 2 Euros a litre, it's makes a car that will do 16mpg on LPG do the cost equivalent of 30+ mpg compared with running on petrol. I get around 230 miles on a 65 litre fill of LPG at a cost of £55-65 depending on where I fill up. The same distance on petrol at today's Supermarket price would cost me £78 so not a huge saving but the difference when driving in Europe is much greater due to the lower cost of LPG there.

In addition, it is a much cleaner and simpler hydrocarbon fuel than petrol. In the UK it is 100% pure Propane, on the continent it is a Propane/Butane mix with the percentages varying with climate and time of year, anything from 90/10 to 50/50. None of the additives that fuel companies put in petrol meaning the oil stays clean and you aren't burning additional chemicals and adding to pollution levels. I use good quality synthetic oil, change it every 10k miles and it still comes out clean. To my way of thinking, clean oil will lubricate better than dirty oil and I consider running on LPG is how my engine has done 230,000 miles since a full rebuild with nothing more than oil changes needed. Not only that, unlike our blinkered and ignorant Government, most other countries recognise that LPG is a cleaner fuel. My Crit Air windscreen sticker for France is a Classe 1, the same as a hybrid and not a Classe 3 that it would be if running on petrol. Germany and Spain are the same, they all recognise it is cleaner and better for the environment.

As for the recently bought red one, that had a tank but not much else (and a piddly little 70 litre gross, 56 litre net tank at that). But it also has an aftermarket exhaust with no cats so wouldn't go through an MoT running on petrol but will if presented for test running on LPG. I paid £90 for a new old stock vaporiser, around £40 in pipework and fittings and £25 for a controller, so under £200 for everything needed to convert it. Once done it sailed through the MoT test emissions without any problems. I've also recently bought a 93 litre gross filled toroidal tank from Romanrob who was removing his system as he does very low mileages so the cost benefits were negligible and his install used small diameter coolant hoses and Tee's so were a near constant source of leaks. It is going to be used as a second car by my partner so the cost savings aren't really going to save much but there will still be a saving and if it keeps the engine going for longer then that will save the £2.5k or so on a rebuilt engine at some point in the future. For that reason, even if the price of LPG meant the running cost were the same as on petrol, I would still run on LPG.

As far as I am concerned, the only downside is having to have the spare wheel in the boot and not under it and the scarcity of filling stations in the UK means a bit of planning may be required on a 200 mile+ long journey. No worse than an EV owner though but unlike one of them, if I run out of LPG, I just flick the switch and run on the petrol I keep in the tank for emergency use, I don't just stop.....

Bottom line is that with the cost of a professional conversion being in the region of £2k, unless you are going to be doing very high mileages or driving in Europe a lot, it will take years to recoup the installation cost, better to buy a car already converted and spend a little on getting the system checked over and calibrated by someone that knows what they are looking at and get the cost savings immediately. From the point of view of a conversion causing a car to lose value, it depends what it is and who you are hoping to sell it to. If we are talking an immaculate classic then a conversion would likely devalue it as it is unlikely to be doing the mileage to make it an advantage. If it is a car that is going to be used, then, to many people, it is an advantage. As I have no intention of ever selling mine, then any increase or decrease in value is irrelevant, I've got another 483,000 miles to go before I hit the next major milestone.

Totally agree with the above. It can makes sense for peeps that do lot's of high mileage in Europe, but in the UK it's seems to be harder & harder to find LPG.

My project P38 had a Prins multipoint LPG installed when I got it, be never bothered to get it working since rebuuilding the engine, although all the parts are installed again. My nearest outlet is inside ULEZ, so no sense in going there.

Lez wrote:

they where never built for that, where they ? .

If not for that, what on earth were they built for?

Mine is used daily for going to work, travelling, towing, off roading etc.

I wish lpg was an option here...

th.

Thanks All, for your views and logic , especially RichardD , your always guaranteed a very sensible and comprehensive approach to posts ..Thanks, Dick...For my part..I've only ever bought "proper" (low ratio boxes) 4x4s to use as tools eg, game fishing/shooting/towing boats etc, not daily drivers and certainly not long-distance commuting etc.vis defenders, discoveries and P38's, albeit in more luxurious surroundings, although hypocritically I did travel once from Manchester to Barcelona in my brand spanking L322 company car in 1999, to watch the Uefa Champions League final, when I couldn't get a flight ..thank god I could claim on company expenses !. I Understand now that LPG can and does make them daily commuters etc for some. especially if the previous owner has gone to the expense of installation which clearly does not reflect in residual sell-on values and Richard's not a sell-on logic in that respect. Thanks All.

Lez wrote:

I did travel once from Manchester to Barcelona in my brand spanking L322 company car in 1999,

Must have been travelling quickly to go back in time, The L322 didn't come out until 2002......

I think the only cars you can say that aren't designed for long distance cruising are the little 1 litre, or less, shopping trolleys that all look so similar if you took the badges off you wouldn't have a clue what it was.

Lez wrote:

For my part..I've only ever bought "proper" (low ratio boxes) 4x4s to use as tools eg, game fishing/shooting/towing boats etc, not daily drivers and certainly not long-distance commuting etc.

The main thing about the RR from the beginning was to do both well.

A car for all reasons...

Of course it might be more economical to have a motorized shopping trolley for commuting, something a little bigger for weekly groceries shopping, etc, but owning many cars (and keeping them running) is also expensive (did someone mention insurance?).

The P38 is almost the only car I've had that I can sit in all day without pain in my back (the only exception being my '90 Classic).

th.

Nearly 20 years ago with a couple of friends in France, I was importing old 1950's and 1960's cars from the States and then taking them down to the South of France so needed something to tow a trailer with a couple of tonnes of Yank Tank on the back. At the time I was running a Saab 900 (on LPG) with a towbar but there was no way it was up to towing them. Rather than having to tax, insure and MoT an everyday car and a tow car, I decided to get something that could do both jobs. I bought a Ford Explorer and rapidly discovered it was possibly the worst tow car ever built so, working on the principle that if a Range Rover was good enough for the Queen, it was good enough for me. I bought a '93 Classic LSE from a mate of a mate. If I washed it, I could use it for going out and it could tow up to 3.5 tonnes. It was already on LPG (that didn't work properly but I soon sorted that out) so was cheap to run too. It towed pretty well, despite having been converted to coil springs, but the main problem was that more of it would dissolve every time it rained. The outer door skins may be alloy but the inners are steel and you could open the rear doors and inspect the electric window regulators without taking the door panels off. The coil springs that had been fitted were for a standard Classic but the LSE is 9 inches longer at the rear so they were too soft. OK when driving it normally but with a trailer on the back, the headlights would point skywards. I needed EAS. Had I known what I know now, I would have put the original system back on but I didn't so fitted stiffer rear springs. That improved it when towing but it was damn near rigid when not. I needed a P38.

Mine, the ex-police one I still have now, came up on eBay. Already on LPG but with a burst rear air spring and running on 7 due to a head gasket blowing into the Vee. £600 later, I trailered it home behind the LSE. A pair of rear air springs and a head gasket later, it was on the road. Then all the other problems we all know about now started. I actually owned the P38 and the LSE for 3 years as I didn't trust the P38 as far as I could throw it so needed something I could rely on even if the rust holes were getting larger by the day. Since then, I have used the P38 as my everyday car, it does the weekly shop, it gets loaded up with almost half a tonne of kit when I go to install air conditioning systems (as I have done today), it regularly goes to SW France and at least once a year goes to visit my partners parents in Latvia (1520 miles each way). It got washed and polished and took my daughter's bridesmaids to her wedding but it also climbs the odd mountain in the Alps and does a bit of green laning too, because it can. In the near 15 years I have owned it, it has been bought home by the AA 3 times. Once when the bearing on the serpentine belt tensioner collapsed and threw the belt off, once when the water pump bearing exploded and the most recent time when the gearbox died at 454,185 miles (I did think abut writing to LR and complaining that the parts they were using were obviously of inferior quality). i don't consider that bad considering that is in the 312,000 miles I've done since buying it.

People have sometimes asked if it is for sale and I've told them not at any price, my daughter reckons they will bury me in it when the time comes.

You've certainly maxed out the benefits of owning and using a P38 Richard !..My proper" 4x4's only get to use their skills these days, negotiating snowy impassable roads and pulling tourists out of the same in our Cumbrian Winters. I think Subaru was clever by ditching the heavy-duty drive trains, high ride heights, and low ratio boxes, to pioneer 4x4s reasonably nimble, affordable, with fewer, needless moving parts, as daily drivers for the country/urban brigade, with other manufacturers following suit sometime later.

"Must have been travelling quickly to go back in time, The L322 didn't come out until 2002"......

Yes...I was thinking about that last night...I'm puzzled myself ...it wasn't a P38, !
I've tried to contact the three lads that came with me ...see if they remember what it was...Forgive me I must have had 60 plus company cars plus second private 4x4's since then, I knew the L322 didn't come out until after the P38 runoff, so I'm baffled now what we drove to Barcelona in ! Ps the L322 was always breaking down , mainly electrical ,never like it...went back to sport cars soon after. Perhaps i had the benefit of a company car And a 4x4 and think that's where the difference lay..in so much I didn't have to travel far in the 4x4 ..
And yes. Thorst...the cost of buying is always different to cost of ownership ..thankfully we close our financially sensible eyes to refurbishing ,repairing and maintaining classic cars and boats...to keep such things on the road and water..such is our passion , clearly demonstrated on forums like this. ! On the subject, please take a look at https://www.nwd4x4.co.uk/ thinking of selling my P38 and going back to a defender for my current needs ,,,these refurbs are great and seem good value, don't tell my wife !

I wouldn't call £25k good value for something you can't use every day.

However, you don't need one. Back in the late nineties, we had some Discovery's at work fitted with a gutter height mounted 10m pneumatic mast which raised the centre of gravity and made them heavier on one side. One of our guys was going up to a hilltop radio site and managed to tip one over. H&S manager got involved and, as a result, all of us that used one of them got sent to Solihull to do the Land Rover off road driving course. I did mine in 2000 or 2001 when the P38 was current. I arrived there to see a rutted mud hill and thought the only way you'd get up that was in a Defender on huge knobbly tyres. Half an hour later I was driving up it in a TD5 Discovery on standard road tyres. The instructor said, the driver will bottle out long before you reach the limit of what the car can do, it's down to knowing how to drive it. At the end of the day I asked what model was the best off road, fully expecting to be told the Defender. Without hesitation, his reply was "the Range Rover on air suspension".

It is a 'proper' 4x4 but doubles as a luxury car as well. I've got a set of Kleber all season tyres on mine (the 2nd set now), 3 peaks marked so legal in Europe in winter and it dealt admirably with 42cm of snow in Latvia in December. It was so good, I had to floor it off a filling station to confirm that the traction control was working as it hadn't kicked in when being driven normally.