If you've got an earlier 1995, then these had issues (which later BECM firmwares fixed) with spurious RF causing the BECM to freak out and constantly lock the doors.
Later BECM firmwares obviously has something written into them, so that if it got an overload of RF then it would only relock the doors a couple of times I think, before it would then not try to drive the motors again.
I saw it a LOT on earlier vehicles where the front door latches would burn the motors out, but for whatever reason (maybe because they were driven by the BECM directly, not the outstation like the front doors) the rear ones never suffered this fate.
The bad news for you is that you need 2 new front door latches to fix it. From what you have described, all the latch microswitches are working as they should - the key is unlocking/locking the vehicle and setting/turning off the alarm/immobiliser. The drivers loor lock will always lock/unlock with the key in the door as it's mechanical. The microswitch is obviously triggering as the BECM sees the change in state and locks/unlocks the rear doors, but the passenger door doesn't do anything as the motor is burnt out. Likewise, when you lock/unlock the passenger door with the button in the door card, it is mechanically locking/unlocking that door, and triggering the central locking switch. The BECM sees this and signals to lock/unlock the other doors - but since the drivers door motor is burnt out, it won't do anything.
The best overall fix for you would be replacing the 2 front door latches, and an upgraded RF receiver (I'd say one of our fob filters as they're cheaper, but we don't have any at the moment - maybe in a few weeks if we can actually order some parts that have been unobtainable the last couple of years!).
Just be aware, that if you replace the front door locks, and not the receiver, then it's entirely possible if the BECM gets flooded with RF, then it could trigger the doors to lock and this will then cause the motors to burn out again. I've seen it before when someone replaced both latches, only to have them cooked again in a couple of months. With the updated receiver/RF filter this filters out EVERYTHING other than a P38 key fob, so the BECM is kept blissfully unaware of any other RF, and thus will only drive the door lock motors when it has received a valid lock/unlock code (or the key is turned in the drivers door or one of the front locking buttons is pressed.
As Gilbert says, some of the earlier MG latches work in a P38 - though some have an extra wire as I think they supplied a signal when the latch was locked aswell as when it was unlocked - from what I can remember anyway.
I think I have a RHD/RHF (drivers) latch in the early style (with the connectors moulded into the latch body) here which I refurbished aged ago for someone. I can't remember if I have passenger side too.... The later (version 2) latches would also work in your vehicle as the main 6 way connector is the same - but you would need to cut/ connect the black ground wire as the connector for that is different from V1 to V2 of the latch. The later V3 latches (whilst physically/mechanically the same) have a single connector on them, which is only compatible with the post '99 vehicles.
Hope this helps.
Marty
Bolt wrote:
I was just getting a few old fobs I have accumulated over the years ready to send off to have their codes read.
The plan being to input a known fob code into the HSK's Becm and see if I can get a working fob for it.....
Going through the fob bin, I found I had an extra fob for Bolt making 3......The one in the bin said it was key 1.
This got me thinking I could test my theory before sending a parcel to the UK......
I have read somewhere that you can only change the first code number (not correct) so, I went into Bolt's (unlocked) Becm and read the 3 stored codes. The first one happened to be 64, so I went to the HSK to input that into it's (also Unlocked) Becm. I found that the first number in the HSKs Becm was already 64......Caused me to recall I had tried this about 2 years ago without success.....
However, being a bit tenacious about this sort of thing, and seeing as I had no working fob for the HSK, I went ahead and loaded all 3 codes from Bolt into the HSK....What could possibly go wrong??
In this case, nothing went wrong, and the Becm accepted all 3 codes. Figuring one had to be correct, I tried to sync the fob.....
It WORKED!!.
I pulled the key from the non working fob that came with the HSK and inserted it into the now working fob.
As this is the Missus' daily driver, I am now a hero in her books!
I am going to send the other 2 fobs off to be read as they work, but I have no way of getting the codes for them.This means, of course that if you have a fob on the correct band, a Nano or equivalent, an unlocked Becm, and a way to get the fob code, you can very easily make any fob work! Even the ones that they sell on sleezebay!!
Now for a large celebratory Rum!
Cheers!
Just a little bit of info for you on how this actually works....
You cannot input 3 fob codes into the BECM. The FOB code section is actually 3 bytes of data, as a hardware ID transmitted by the fob to the vehicle. The fob code you program into a BECM is the 3-byte ID of Key #1 of a lockset. The BECM then will accept this code and the following 3 ID's. This is how they get a 'lockset' of 4 fobs, and how they can program a new one from the factory, as there will be a record of the lockset barcode (which must have the ID 1 encoded in it somehow) and then say you want key 2 - then you can know what the lockset ID1 is, and then work out from that what the ID of 2/3/4 should be and program a fob to that ID, so that it would sync to the BECM.
The fob reader that I have will read the ID that the specific key is transmitting, and work out whether it's a Key 1/2/3/4 and tell me that. I can then work out (in the case that it's not a key 1) what the key 1 code would be, and this is what would get programmed into the BECM.
So if you have programmed your other BECM with the same codes, then they will both listen to the same fob codes (so you could in theory sync fob 1 to one vehicle and fob 3 to the other vehicle. but if you someone synced the remote from one vehicle to the other, it would operate it (on the fob at least) which could put the rolling code out on the other vehicle and de-sync it from there.
If you have other working fobs, then I would still probably get one of them read (especially if you have 2 from another vehicle/lockset) as then you could write the fob 1 code from the other lockset to the other vehicle and then have 2 working fobs for both vehicles... or at least 1 for one vehicle and 2 for the other. Or if you have multiple fobs, then read all of them, so if you need to replace one at some point then you have the codes needed for the rest.
In theory, I could get any key from any vehicle, read the fob code, work out what the #1 code from the lockset is and program it to any BECM - BUT you CANNOT take 2 keys from DIFFERENT locksets and get them programmed and have the BOTH work on the SAME BECM. you could program the fob code from one OR the other lockset, not both.
Regarding unlocked BECMs... I have read that there CAN be issues with unlocked BECMs, but I haven't been able to find out what they are either. The only thing I have read for sure is that you could get problems with communicating with the HEVAC if the BECM is unlocked. And that the fix for it is to unplug the connector to the BECM that has the diagnostic wires in it. I haven't however had the issues myself (my BECM is unlocked, and never have trouble talking to the HEVAC - not any worse than any other P38).... so I'm wondering if it was an issue on earlier ones that got fixed in later revision BECMs/firmware versions.
Marty
From when I pulled one of the P38 nav units apart many years ago (probably 2012 when I got my P38), I don't remember it having a battery in it.
I think from memory, and the image I found of the top side of the PCB that it probably stores it's last location data in EEPROM or flash memory when it powers down. Mine was always thinking it was somewhere else, and would always go back to that location on next power up. I didn't really look too far into it, but I think it is probably the EEPROM or flash memory chip failing and not writing new data to it.
I went with the aftermarket nav route, so didn't dig further into where the EEPROM is on the board, or if it's replaceable, or if it includes anything else in it's memory - firmware or the likes.
I seem to recall a repair service for them somewhere in eastern Europe, but don't know if that is still happening!
Was the door latch tested with it unplugged, or still plugged in to the outstation?
If it was still plugged into outstation, then you will get weird results.
If it was unplugged and you were probing the latch connector plug directly, then it's really strange... With a DVM on continuity check, you should get a tone in one state of each microswitch....
If it's all working as expected now though, then that's the main thing and I wouldn't worry about the latch too much (unless you get jumping door locks... Then it's likely to be on the way out )
Glad it's all working as it should now though!
If you have power/ground at the outstation, then it's probably one of the serial link wires between the BECM and door outstation which has failed. I've seen it numerous times.
Check the continuity on the Light Green, Red, and Orange/Green wires from the door outstation connector to the BECM. They appear on the 16 way Blue connector on the front edge of the BECM.
Light Green is pin 13 on BECM connector
Red is pin 14 on BECM connector
Orange/Green is on pin 15 of BECM connector.
If any of these is broken then it will stop all communication with the door outstation, and you'll have a dead door.
First place to check if one is faulty is the connectors inside the bodywork of the A pillar. Pull the rubber cable sheath out from the vehicle side with the door open, and you should be able to pull the connectors through the hole in the bodywork (they are fiddly) and check them for any sign of corrosion/broken pins on the above mentioned wires.
If they are OK, pop the plastic sill trim and inspect the wiring looms in there, as I've found corroded wires with a break in them in the looms before, including one with that exact problem where the door had stopped. I ended up chopping out the broken section of wire and soldering/heatshrink a new length of wire into the loom.
Sorry I haven't seen this earlier - I'm still out of the UK (currently in NZ, but been touring the US earlier in the year) and not on forums/FB groups/email much anymore as life has been too busy - and all my p38 stuff is in the UK still currently...
I doubt that it will ever be corrected in Nanocom firmware.
I found out about the sensor labels being incorrect years ago and informed BBS of it on their nanocom forums (and possibly the blend motor one) and they said they'd look at it then to update in the next firmware release.
Still hadn't been fixed when I last updated my Nanocom.
If cleaning up the earth sorted it (at least of awhile) then I would look at either swapping the sensor for the later 2 wire one, and adding in an earth wire to maybe one of the other sensor ground wires in the loom (or even back to the battery or engine ecu directly), or somehow add a ground to the original sensor and again ground that back to somewhere reliable.
The temp gauge is heavily damped so I presume that it will not wander around the centre of the gauge when driving normally and the thermostat opens/closes etc, and I remember when mine got super hot and blew the heater core that it stayed central for a LONG time and then suddenly shot up into the red before it went pop.
There was a known issue with the 1 wire temp gauges and their reliability and I think the remedy was to upgrade to the 2 wire version.
Good to hear that it all works properly with the cable and there wasn't any magic smoke soming out.
Interesting to know about the BT3 Update with DAB - I've not heard of that one before... but at least Grom are being good about it and helping you sort the firmware. I too haven't often had to downgrade firmware on things! But hopefully that will manage to get it all working as expected - I must say that the one I installed a year (or maybe 2) ago obviously didn't have that firmware, as all the track/folder control worked as you would expect it to.
Hopefully the firmware update will be easy enough to do!
Having a look - I believe this is right. The audio grounds (from memory) are tied to the main power ground in the head unit/Grom unit. So the pins you mentioned are to actually power the Grom BT3 unit itself. There should be other wires in the connector aswell to go to the head unit. Hopefully in Pins 13/14 (audio signal L/R +ve) and Pin 19, which is the I-bus control wire..
As long as all those pins are correct along with the power/ground wires - then you should be fine and it'll work as expected.
Cheers,
Marty
Yeah, I've been back in NZ now since late October last year.... I was only originally planning on being here for 6 months - but as covid has played out, I've ended up staying here longer and longer.. I do have to come back to the UK at some point (either November this year, or maybe end of January 2022 depending on if work pans out in the USA).
I've been lucky that up until a couple of weeks ago work/life had been pretty busy - but we went back into full lockdown due to covid Delta getting out into the community (we were previously totally covid free in the whole country). So being at home with no work again (and not even any RR bits to work on here!!) I've had to push a few plans again...
I did take a jump to the dark side a couple of months ago and bought a RR out here aswell - though as a first for me I skipped the P38's on offer and took the plunge on a 2006 L322 - the 4.2L Supercharged model... in my typical style, it needed a LOT of work and is currently in getting the transmission rebuilt - and is unfortunately tied up there during lockdown - so can't wait for restrictions to ease so they can finish that and I can get it back and try to do a few road trips!
Re the Thor ECU stuff - it is strange that it was hard coded to the ECU on the P38s - as on the D2 which also used the Motronic ECU, it was the other way around still - the Disco BCU had the code in it, and you then do a security learn on the ECU... I have no idea why they mixed it around on the P38 though....
I will have a look at them in a bit as I'm actually with my laptop and RAVE... But what seems like ages ago now, I did a Grom install for someone with the BT3 unit and also that cable and it worked fine... The blue connector replaces the CD changer input on the head unit... But I will have a look through my notes and pinouts for the Alpine system and double check...
Do you mean this cable?
The GEMS and Bosch systems basically work in opposite to each other.
GEMS listens for a code that is programmed into the BECM (which isn't hard-coded - it's a 16bit/ HEX value you can change it to whatever you want between 0 and 65535). The GEMS ECU then has the 'Security Learn' which basically tells the ECU to listen to the security code being received and then store that as the one that it should use. There were the issues as Davew mentioned where the GEMS ECU would 'forget' the code and lose sync with the BECM, and the fix was to reprogram the BECM code with 65535 and then tell the ECU to learn this.
The GEMS ECU would tell the BECM (via illumination of the Check Engine Light) that it had accepted the code, and a BECM which is set to GEMS would inhibit cranking of the engine unless it had seen the CEL signal back from the engine ECU.
The Bosch units - Motronic and EDC work opposite in the fact that their immobilisation code is stored in the engine ECU itself, and the BECM code is programmed to match this. The Bosch units don't provide feedback on a correct code via the CEL, so this check was programmed out of a BECM, and is the reason why when sync is lost on a diesel or a Thor, that it will still crank, but not fire up. The BECM firmware was changed to always allow cranking in Pos III (except if it was immobilised) as it has no idea if the engine ECU has accepted the code or not. It basically leaves the decision on whether the engine should start or not to the engine ECU.
I'm happy to see that there is a solution now for the Motronic ECUs - though they never seemed to suffer the problem with losing sync like the GEMS units did (well, definitely not to the same extent). I am sure you will get a lot of people snapping them up, because it seems to be the number one worry people have with P38's about it not starting or them being locked out....
One other side note.... I don't know how this affects insurance in the UK as regards to modifications etc - as you are technically removing the immobiliser completely... other than the steering lock, there is now absolutely nothing to stop you from hotwiring a P38 with this fitted is there?
I am somewhat of a purist though, and feel that if you have a well looked after system, then it works fine as it was intended from the factory. The big problem that I usually end up fixing for people with non-starting issues is BECM related - because it's the big bad box of horror stories... despite the fact that most BECM lockout issues are down to components external to that failing and there will have been warning signs long before it actually going into lockout (usually problems with locking/door latches). And why look after the system and have it work properly when you can just bypass all the security....
I do think the possibility of running the Motronic ECU as standalone is great, as it opens up the possibility of using the engine/ECU in standalone environments which previously was only confined to the using the GEMS version... I'm a big fan of the Rover V8 and the thought of being able to use it in other projects - but with the later engine management systems is quite food for thought....
Though lately my interests have been elsewhere...
Looks ace... Can't wait to see it in person!
Have a think what you can do for mine now... Though I want to keep me LPG tank, thanks :)
donmacn wrote:
Dropped another 4.5L of ATF out of my gearbox after letting it sit for another week... think that's about 9L that's come out now. I think I'll need to go any buy another 5L of ATF before I fill it tomorrow.
Meanwhile, in another part of the car.... I think I saw a post recently about the availability of Marty/Sloth's RF key fob filters, but they're showing as 'out of stock' on the website. Can anyone remember that post, or know what the latest is? I have the trim panel off, so I thought I might as well 'future proof' the car and fit one.
We are currently out of stock on them. I am out of the country still with work, and I think Nick is hoping to try and get some filters made in the near future, but we have been waiting on boards and components and he also works full-time, so it's a bit of a juggling act.
We will definitely make more of them, but can't commit to a timeframe at the moment, sorry!
romanrob wrote:
oh joy
Yeah, it's not too bad. I usually use a scalpel blade to scratch away a bit of the black lacquer where the bad track/via is, as there are some tracks that run pretty close to each other and if you're not careful you can then bridge tracks with solder.
It's one of the reasons I didn't get around to fixing any of them before I left for NZ... Though I usually find the ones with the electrical issues like yours easier and quicker to fix than ones with button problems, as they're a while lot more work to strip apart and put back together!
I have Comets on mine aswell.
they were a standard fit D2 wheel, but on the P38 they weren't fitted as a "we have nothing left" but rather an option extra. My 2001 sales brochure shows them as being £800 extra to fit comets on a late model P38 - my 2001 Vogue has them, as someone seems to have ticked a load of extra boxes on the order form.... but my 2000 Vogue (which is still a work in progress) only had the standard Hurricanes on it.
I believe the stored target heights (especially on the front) need to be withing 2 bits of each other - as when you come to a stop, it briefly opens both front valves to equalize the pressure between the front air springs. (I'm guessing to try to make sure the headlights are level and not shining randomly off).
If you have target heights more that a couple of bits out then you might see the 'target heights incorrect' message - or if they are outside the expected range for that particular height.
As to the height it actually reports as sitting at - well, that might be a bit off from the 'target', but again especially on the fronts, they should be withing a couple of points of each other.
Hope this helps.
The phone input on the later Vogue vehicle goes into the DSP amp, not the head unit - so the issue on that one is possibly early signs of a DSP amp failure.
If you're lucky it could be corrosion or something on the phone unit connector which usually hides down in the LHR area near the CD changer unit or maybe behind the trims. The is a mute line and the audio feeds into the DSP amp.
I run the Standard Terrafirmas - and they are definitely a bit stiffer than the stock Boge units that came off, but it does feel pretty sturdy on the road overall.
I am also definitely preferring the Bridgestone Dueller AT tyres I put on last year to replace the Toyo Open Country AT's that were on there. Feels a lot better to drive.