Gilbertd wrote:
You've found a dickhead. A minus figure for toe is toe IN, which is why it is pulling to the left. Taking it somewhere that understands a steering box is far better than KwikFit. It's only taking as much time and energy as it is because you are entrusting it to people that don't know what they are doing (and charging you for the privilege).
A sticky calliper would cause it to pull one way and the easy check for that is to check to see if one front wheel is hotter than the other immediately you stop driving. The hot one is the sticky one.
If the steering box is a long way off centre, then the power steering will cause it to centre incorrectly but it has to be a long way off. With the wheels pointing straight ahead it is simple enough to open the bonnet and look at the pointer on the steering column collar.
Airbag light has nothing to do with an ABS sensor. Do you mean the ABS light?
You can't grease the viscous coupling, it is a sealed unit inside the transfer case.
It wasn't KwikFit, oddly enough, they were the ones who got it right the first time but "we charge £80 but between you and I, I can do it for £50 cash" threw me off. Not going there again.
Will give it a try tomorrow, thanks.
I did open the bonnet (it actually opened when I assumed it was stuck. Probably got lucky), but I did not know what I was looking at. I know which side it is located, but with the LPG setup in the way, I wasn't sure where exactly to point my eyes at. I'm going to use a bright torch and dig my head deeper down lol.
Sorry, yes. ABS light - my old P38 had this issue. Then, I had my Nancom to inform me of which side it was. I'll disconnect one at a time to clean the connector and see if it makes any difference. If so, that's the side to replace.
VC - meaning he greased the propshaft UJs yearly.
Gilbertd wrote:
Why do you think it is the steering box? Was it driving straight before you paid someone that doesn't understand how it works start playing with it? If the problem was tyre wear, then that should have told you what it was. Wearing the inside edges is too much toe out, wearing the outside edges is too much toe in, wearing both inside and outside is too low pressure. Squealing when turning sharply may be low pressure or could also be a seized viscous coupling. As you destroyed a front propshaft, unless it was extremely worn and had never seen a grease gun in the entire life of the car, I would still suspect the viscous.
Regardless of where I left the toe, the car kept on moving left.
So I've just returned from the mechanic - it's a lost cause. I said I need toe OUT between 0.5 and 0.15, so he set the figure to -0.8, (adamant on this meaning TOE OUT), yet now it still veers to the left.
I'm spending far too much time than I'd like on this car. In true humour, the glovebox opened up once again, so I'll tighten the screws soon, and the airbag light illuminated - which I suspect is a dodgy ABS sensor.
What if the steering box is off? What if I even have a sticky calliper? I am within my depth, but I don't like how much of my mental energy this is consuming! Luckily, there's a Landrover 4X4 garage nearby that does it all, so I'm going to ring them tomorrow and see what they say.
Yeah, the VC is still on my mind - the previous owner mentioned he greased it yearly. Another reason - I did get my alignment done from KwikFit, and it actually worked - steering straight and did not drag, but it did not hold for too long.
Gilbertd wrote:
Also point out that if their machine shows anything but zero on the rear, it hasn't been mounted properly.
I’m convinced it will be the steering box and they won’t know much about this car, so they will probably adjust the drag link to attempt to fix it (assuming this is a valid method)
I’ll get them to adjust the toe first and then touch the steering box.
I'm just going to return to the shop and show them the specified toe range of 0°05' to 0°15' toe OUT.
Following from the other thread, I want to inspect the steering box.
Do I view it from above/below? If so, what am I looking at? What are the steps?
I am aware of aligning the 'two' lines together, but no idea where to begin/what to undo.
Gilbertd wrote:
It sounds like the drag link and steering wheel were correct but by maladjusting the toe, it has pulled it out. Once you get your head around how the system works and what each adjuster does it becomes clear. The link between the steering wheel and LH wheel won't have changed, so it is only the RH wheel that is pulling the steering one way or another. You can even change a tie rod and reset the alignment simply by doing what you have done. Adjust it a bit one way or the other until the steering wheel is back to how it was. If it was straight before, it should be straight afterwards.
Spent some time this morning making adjustments. I've got the wheel awfully close to straight now, yet the car still veers to the left. Pardon the ignorance, as this is all new to me - maybe I am doing something wrong.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/0e3z9kB01lDOivFCY34XVN4qA - as you say, "One end of the adjuster has a left hand thread while the other is a right hand thread so turning the adjuster sleeve one way shortens it, the other way lengthens it. "
I was rotating the left-hand thread this entire time by clamping pliers onto the centre hex. Under the right set of locknuts, I've noticed there was also a thread underneath. Was I also meant to toy with this? If not, then this is starting to point to the steering box. I've had to cut this troubleshooting short as I'm leaving to drive soon - I hope the additional 200miles do not eat into the tyre.
Gilbertd wrote:
From that printout, he's cocked up fitting the sensors as well as setting it to incorrect settings. It is showing a figure for both castor and toe on the rear but you have a live axle so both can only ever be zero. The computer says that the toe on the front should be -0 degrees 10 minutes to 0 degrees (straight ahead). The minus signifies toe in but it should actually be, from the workshop manual, 0 degrees 5 minutes to 0 degrees 15 minutes toe OUT. So he's set it with too much toe in which means you will wear the outside edge of the tyres. The fact that before adjustment it was showing a different figure for toe side to side also shows the sensors weren't correctly fitted. On a car with rack and pinion steering with an adjuster on each side, it is possible for it to be different side to side. With a steering box such as we have, they will always both be the same if the wheels are pointing straight ahead.
You can ignore the caster and camber angles. Caster will change with the suspension height and the state of your radius arm bushes while camber is fixed but will change as your top and bottom axle ball joints start to wear and develop a bit of slack.
As you can only adjust on one side, you may find that if the toe is adjusted so it is correct, the steering wheel may well become straight or at least straighter. Rather than go back to the mechanic with the correct figures (print the page from RAVE, it's page 15 of General Specification Data) and tell him he is an idiot (and the data on his computer is incorrect), you may as well adjust it yourself. The adjuster is on the rod behind the front wheels that connects the two hubs together. To increase the toe out, you need to shorten the rod at the adjuster which is on the RH end of the tie rod. Slacken off the lock bolts (one needs a 13mm socket and spanner while the other is 17mm) and give it one full turn to shorten it. That will get it from where it is to within the limits it should be at. One end of the adjuster has a left hand thread while the other is a right hand thread so turning the adjuster sleeve one way shortens it, the other way lengthens it. If a full turn is too much and you now have too much toe out, the steering will be reluctant to self centre when coming off a corner, so back it off by half a turn.
Think about it. You have a rod from the steering box to the LH wheel. If the LH wheel is pointing straight ahead but you have too much toe in, the RH wheel won't be pointing straight ahead but will be pointing to the left. Consequently, you will need to turn to the right to keep the car going straight ahead. This may be all it is that is causing the steering wheel to not be centred when travelling straight ahead.
Once the toe is correct, or at least a lot closer to how it currently is, see what the steering wheel position is now. If it is now straight, you don't need to do any more. If it isn't, look at the collar on the input shaft to the steering box (where the lower column connects to it). There is a pointer on it which should be pointing at a similar mark cast into the steering box (you may need to use a mirror to see it). If they line up, then the steering box is centered and the steering wheel will need to be moved on its splines. If the marks don't line up you need to adjust at the drag link on the front rod next to the Pitman Arm (the output lever on the steering box). This is a similar adjuster to that on the tie rod but it may well be seized and will need a bit of brute force to get it to move. If you do it with the key in the ignition so the steering lock is off and the wheels on the ground, the steering wheel and the input shaft will turn as you adjust it. Get it so the marks line up and the steering wheel should, hopefully, also be straight. If it isn't, then again the steering wheel will need to be moved on the splines to get it right.
The whole process is in RAVE, with pictures, but it assumes you are familiar with how the system works so isn't immediately clear.
Thanks for the detailed response.
I played with the adjuster today when I got the chance, and it's definitely doing something. The microturns made a big difference - perhaps too much. When I test-drove it not too long ago, I had to keep the wheel left to keep the car straight, ha. I'll play with it tomorrow and hope I get it fixed as I am driving another 200miles tomorrow.
Gilbertd wrote:
So he's only done half the job. He's adjusted the wheel alignment, whether it is right or not is another matter (did he give you a printed sheet showing before and after?), but not done the second part of the job which is aligning the steering box and steering wheel. It isn't so much the steering wheel that needs centralising but the steering box. If it isn't, the power steering will try to centre the box which may or may not coincide with the wheels being straight ahead so it will pull to one side if you take your hands off the wheel. Once the steering box is correctly aligned, if the steering wheel isn't centred, that needs moving on the splines so it is.
Right, I'm now home. This all now makes sense - I need to adjust the steering box and then perhaps get the alignment done again.
I've found this post (I'm a visual learner, so it helps)
Before I check tomorrow, is this something that can be easily accessed to turn, or will I need to remove the wheel?
This is the printout - https://share.icloud.com/photos/011nhjYbuAZ4yZOzggZarc_-A
Gilbertd wrote:
As I said in your other thread, wheel alignment affects what direction the wheels are pointing in, not whether the steering wheel is straight or not, that is done by adjusting the drag ink. Taking the steering wheel off isn't going to show you anything either.
The tie rod at the rear of the wheels, the one that runs across the car connecting both wheels together, is adjusted to get the alignment correct so the wheels are pointing in the right direction (correct is 0.6-1.8mm toe out although better to aim for the lower of the two figures). Then you drive the car and set the steering so the car is travelling in a straight line but ignoring the position of the steering wheel. Check the marker on the input shaft on the steering box to see if it lines up with the mark on the steering box itself. If it does then the steering wheel will need moving on the splines so it is straight. Chances are it won't line up so in that case you need to adjust at the drag link adjuster next to the steering box. Once you manage to unseize the adjuster (Plus Gas, followed by heat and a pair of Stilsons), with the wheels on the ground and steering lock off, as you turn the adjuster the steering wheel will turn along with the centralising mark on the steering box.
So, I did watch the mechanic do the job. He did use the 4-point Hunter system and did indeed adjust the track rod to ensure all was aligned.
Other sources online are stating the steering wheel itself needs centring. Yes, my mechanic locked the wheel in place with a bar but if the wheel was not centred to begin with, it wouldn’t be useful.
As I want to avoid a back and forth with mechanics, what can I do myself to ensure all is well?
Right, after a second alignment, my steering wheel is still bent.
Is there anything that I can physically inspect on the streets ring wheel by taking it off?
Maybe I’m being paranoid but I’ve had the car washed and this is how the same end that was worn looks after a 100mile drive.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/04323Accl77386efkKRlIanrg
I’ve had the alignment done yet the steering wheel is still slightly bent. I conducted one VC test of driving in a slow circle full lock either side, no noise or struggles of the tires.
So the issue is still present. Is the VC the culprit here?
Pete12345 wrote:
You probably need to take the dust shield off ?
I ended up grinding a bit off the lip to be able to get the bolt in. Finally, this job is done.
Now, to test if the VC has seized.
I’ve reached a big blocker - https://share.icloud.com/photos/0a1OQ5v6pxKKJuteKQutqsADQ
Gilbertd wrote:
The prop may be a simple bolt on job as long as it is phased correctly. The original one had a spline missing on the sliding joint so it would only go together with the UJs correctly phased. Some aftermarket ones didn't have this so could be assembled any way so could be wrong. If you have the version of RAVE that includes the Classic, that has a picture of the correct phasing.
So, I finally was able to grind the nut. It was so awkward as I was protecting my face. I’ve called it a day as my wrist was well worked.
Anyway, yep. I need the one bolt off which means removing the front flange.
https://share.icloud.com/photos/03fNoxtgZp9bIsMIgSSOvL5Eg
Having said that, I require probably half an inch to safely push it out. For tomorrow, is it worth moving the car ever so slightly to find a gap to push the bolt out, or is it as straightforward as using a 30mm socket with my impact gun to remove the bolt and do a quick swap? (I’ll shoot myself in the head if only a breaker bar with work here. I’ll accept defeat and find the nearest garage)
If the latter, my only concern is applying excessive torque with the impact gun, so I’ll use a permanent marker to mark the current bolt position before reapplying the bolt with small incremental taps with the gun.
Gilbertd wrote:
The nut, or the thread on the bolt has probably been damaged when the broken UJ flew out from under the car. Last resort would be to use an angle grinder and cut it off but that would then mean you will have to take the output flange off the transfer case to replace the bolt.
The viscous coupling is a sealed unit filled with a silicone gel so you won't get any noise from it. Driving with one propshaft missing is a sure fire way of causing it to seize even if it wasn't already (which it almost certainly was). It connects the front and rear propshafts so you need to stop the rear from moving, either with the handbrake or with the gearbox in Park and the rear wheels on the ground. Then you try to move the front, usually by lifting one front wheel and seeing how much torque and over how long, you can move it. But that does assume you have a front propshaft connected. As you don't, you will need to do it with a socket and breaker bar on the nut in the centre of the flange the propshaft fits to.
New bolts have arrived but EVRi decided to lose my propshaft..which was due on Wednesday.
When bolting in the new propshaft, is it a straight 'bolt-on' job? I'm reading things online about balancing, etc, and how those can feel vibrations as the propshaft was not 'aligned'.
Also, the vehicle no longer goes into park - is this expected or another issue?
Yep, the nut turned a good amount, but it seems to be stuck right towards the end of the bolt. Wouldn't budge when twisting with my hand.
The 14mm socket worked well for every other bolt, but it's been awkward on this, so I'll try with 13mm.
Good news is the propshaft is off - I can now move the car in drive.
What is still left is to test the VC to determine if it's seized. I tried a bunch of variations (rear wheel up, handbrake off etc), so I can't remember what the setup exactly was, but I was able to move the VC, by hand, ever so slightly before it stopped - as if it now required torque for additional movement.
I was able to move the car back and forth with no grinding noise at all - could this be any indication that the VC is 'ok'?
I'm going to attempt the bolt once again as my propshaft arrives today. Doesn't help that I lost one nut somewhere next to the car.
Just one bolt left to remove -seems damaged and refuses to come out!
Tool came today. Managed to take off 2/4 bolts from the front output as it got too dark.
I had to hold the rear nuts in order for the bolt to come loose. Not sure how I’ll manage to get off the snapped flange connected to the VC tomorrow.
Pete12345 wrote:
Jack the front of the car under the axle for access. Unbolt the prop flange from the VCU output flange. Then with rear wheels on ground & gearbox in neutral, use a suitable socket (cannot remember the size) on the VCU flange & long bar to turn the VCU. It should be stiff but will turn slowly.
{edit]. Look in RAVE with the RR Classic. Section 41, page 18 shows the VCU bench test. Similar turning force should work with the VCU in the car !!
limited floor clearance + applying torque will be an awkward task so I'm left with jacking one rear axle and using a breaker bar to move the wheel.
Gilbertd wrote:
v8vroom wrote:
In the meantime, I’ll test if the VC has seized (jacking up one side and turning the wheel).
But without a front propshaft you have nothing connecting the wheel to the VC????
Yeah lol, soon after I typed that I realised that doesn’t work. I’ll twist the flange connected to the VC and see if there’s some movement, unless that doesn’t work and you can suggest another option!