A bit harsh to describe these spacesavers as "B/S" Richard, particularly as one might save your life.....
If there is any B/S it is actually surely from car manufacturers for not providng them in the first case (?)
(I for one will not drive a car without one either)

(Again) I will let you know what RoadHero say about 'Regulations' but here is another spacesaver company with their rationale ! :-

https://www.tyremen.co.uk/guide/what-space-saver-wheel-and-tyre-0
https://www.honestjohn.co.uk/sponsored-content/sponsored-content-tyreman/
OR:
https://www.lockingwheelnutremover.co.uk/universal-spare-wheel.html

The (Alloy) RH one I have in fact I had rebored (slightly) so i can use it on more than one of my cars (and I just threw the goop away...)

As stated saving weight seems more something within the context of ICE/Emissions so i don't know why EVs have them...
and considering their weight I would not even trust/entertain one ! Insist on a full-sized spare with your EVs folks !!

Drove the Infinity M35H hybrid over quite a few miles following LPG conversion. Strange to drive, usually in P or N the engine is running and running under similar load to being in gear (D R etc, say 0.5 bar map), drop it into D and the engine turns off! Keep it in D, left foot brake or leave handbrake off and apply very slight throttle and the engine starts but now is under less load than would expect for idle - the electric motor helps spin the engine and the engine is under similar (anti) load as would be in low rpm over-run conditions about 0.25 bar map! Set off very slowly and the engine turns/stays off, set off a bit sharpish and the engine immediately starts... Get up to about 30mph under low load conditions and the engine tuns off again but only for what seems a very short time/distance before it has to start again to charge the battery. Perhaps the battery on this particular example is on it's way out but it doesn't seem to have great range on battery power alone even at low speed, talking yards rather than miles. Not that I was interested much in battery power, no use to me running on battery when I have to calibrate the LPG system! It drives a bit weirdly when not particularly trying to influence engine load for LPG calibration purposes too, there's a pause in throttle response when the engine has to start, can feel the charge system seem to come in at various times when you can sense the engine working harder than it would be for the conditions if the charge system hadn't cut in a bit like driving with left foot braking. Overall a decent car but I'd be more confident in sporty driving in a normal ice car with same engine no hybrid stuff to affect response etc. Did a lot of the calibration on Thurs night during heavy rain and even flood conditions around this area, had the heater on high, could feel the heater get cooler after the engine had turned off. Mostly concerned about reducer temp though, which never fell below 45C even at latter stages of running on battery power.

My son's BMW 330 doesn't have a spare wheel or location to fit one but will have had run-flats fitted when new. I expect regs allow vehicles not to carry a spare if they have run-flats fitted? I know AA etc can refuse to help people who should be carrying a spare or have run-flats but don't. This doesn't prevent me having normal tyres and not carrying a spare, there are other ways of getting sorted if you have a flat and don't have a spare... I believe the RAC will take people in this situation to a tyre fitting firm... or will put you in touch with an (expensive) mobile tyre fitting firm. Couple of years ago I had a blow out on a single axle caravan, fitted the spare, set off again had another blow out. Called the RAC and because it was the caravan (not covered under my policy) they gave me the number for a mobile tyre fitter. I bought 2 tyres and when I got home sold the caravan and bought a bigger 4 wheeled one that would carry extra weight and manage higher speed without blowouts lol. No fun changing the caravan tyre (first blowout) beside the M42 though, easier to change a car wheel.

I think advertised range for a lot of EVs will be very optimistic. With an ice engine max range will be close to min speed in top gear, which may be a slow speed but won't be an extremely slow speed. With an EV, no gears, max range could be at 1mph with the lights wipers and HEVAC all completely turned off.

I never said the space savers were B/S, but the statement that since a change in regulations stopped manufacturers from supplying them is almost certainly marketing B/S. Space savers work and are better than a can of gloop and a pump. The ones Mercedes supply are very good, when deflated the sidewalls collapse making them much smaller (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQuJZSRC4WQ) but once inflated they are almost the same size as a standard tyre. How the hell you deflate them to get them back in the well I've no idea though. The other links you posted are more accurate, manufacturers have stopped supplying spare wheels to keep the weight down in an effort to give improved emissions figures.

But if you think about it, why did manufacturers supply spare wheels in the first place? Many years ago tyre technology wasn't what it is now, road surfaces were much worse and punctures were far more regular so cars were supplied with at least one, and in many cases two, spare wheels. They don't supply a spare set of light bulbs, or a can of oil or coolant so the owner can replace or top them up, so why should they supply a spare wheel? If you look at the AA stats, callouts to flat batteries are the most common reasons for a visit, but manufacturers don't supply a spare battery. But, as Morat says, if they stopped supplying spare wheels, where would we put the LPG tank?

Gilbertd wrote:
But, as Morat says, if they stopped supplying spare wheels, where would we put the LPG tank?

I like that point! When I come to convert an unfamiliar vehicle for the first time it's always bad to find it has a space saver spare or worse no spare at all. Wish I'd taken pics of the boot on the Infinity hybrid and it's spare wheel well to show you, it does have a shallow interior spare wheel well and carried a space saver but the middle of the spare wheel well is a raised dome, under that dome (exterior side) is the evac purge canister. Dilemma was to fit a small capacity toroidal tank above the spare wheel well dome (space saver sits around the domed bit as it is for the most part hollow toward the centre, toroidal tank is same depth in middle as at edges so would sit higher than the space saver), remove the evac purge canister and disable the evac purge system and cut out the dome to fit a deeper toroidal tank, cut the dome out and fit a deeper toroidal tank but still not as deep as usual due to the narrowing with height design of the boot in that area, leave the dome alone and fit a cylinder tank. Luckily the owner didn't give a shit about boot space and I knew that before he came, I fitted a 103L cylinder tank in the boot which takes most of the boot space, tank does mean there wouldn't be access to the 'well' so the space saver is on the back seat at the moment and owner is very happy with the 92L working capacity due to the tank float bend.

Shit, I accidentally hid this topic, unhidden now, sorry hope no problems!

What plonker gave you mod status?

Gilbertd wrote:

What plonker gave you mod status?

Hehe I know...

Edit - Gilbert a couple of weeks ago you sent me a PM on LPGforum, I replied but dunno if you got my message?

Yes got it. Will be going over in 3 or 4 weeks so will have a look at the Etagas to work out how easy it is going to be to remove and then discuss what he wants to do after it has had the registration swapped.

(Again) Richard "Marketing B/S" would be if they said "you have to have one of these spacesavers because of Regulation changes"..... and (again) I will let you know what they say. I suspect it is down to Emissions changes and thus associated weight reduction or worse than that - eg. "car buyers are asking for more boot space" and similar nonsense... ie The real B/S: ~ 50% of new cars don't have spares and yet many drivers find this out 'the hard way' ?!

-And perhaps these manufactrers have not noticed all the potholes either - 'great' for sidewall damage - as these really don't seem to feature in their ads. !

Similarly I don't think the comparison with folks carrying spare bulbs (etc) is particularly valid, although isn't that a requirement in France ? (Along with a warning triangle... and which should also be compulsory too. along with a high vis jacket !)..... and a rubber mallet, long breaker bar for the wheel nuts, plus tow rope, shovel....bright hazard lights etc et. (or maybe that's just me !)....

Anyway, that Merc collapsable spare wheel is quite an expensive gimmick too of course.... and I hope they provide a good pump for it in the cars too (and presumably a vaccum pump is needed later so you can actually get it back in the well (?). Not a great believer in "runflats" either, another expensive gimmick, particularly as using them for 10 miles or so trashes them. 'Great' to get you to the nearets tyre fitter but guess what... "special order guv. - but we can get them in a day or two" !!

Perhaps overall the real answer is to ensure manufacturers for both ICE/Hybrid EVs quote MPG/range figures for real world..... a couple of passengers, some 'standard' luggage, a spare wheel and so on.... (and all the other things their lobby would avoid) !

Why aren't spare bulbs a valid comparison? You are correct, spare bulbs, along with a hi-viz vest (at least one for every person in the car and kept in the car not in the boot), warning triangle and first aid kit are mandatory in most European countries, a fire extinguisher in some and snow chains during winter months in some areas. But in most cases they aren't supplied by the manufacturer but the owner. The manufacturer will sell you a kit in a pretty bag if you ask nicely though. So if you follow that logic, car manufacturers are selling a car (in some European countries) that isn't legal for road use.......

Err..... because, unlike a flat, a blown bulb is not going to mean you are then motionless by the roadside and maybe in a danegrous situation ??

Your remark about manufacturers (albeit tongue-in-cheek) is correct: We have to 'ask nicely' and pay for stuff so they will provide safety equipment that might save our lives....

No, I most definitely did not say they are selling 'illegal' cars so your 'logical' extrapolation on that is incorrect too.....
but what I am clearly actually saying is that they really don't give a 'S' what we want ....and that's B/S !

Overall it seems that in order to meet new Emissions Standards they are just removing (or just not including) things that might be beneficial for the sake of 'weight reduction' issues. The steel used in thinner, the cars don't last as long and then they say we 'care about the Environment'.

Finally I personally don't care about 'exciting' Bluetooth connectivity etc etc....or any of their other superficial gimmicks, and, unless I am also 'mistaken' about this I understand I am entitled to my opinions (and experiences) on all this too !!

( Incidentally still on the topic of 'survival' this was a 'good idea' by 'motoring experts' that was proved wrong too:
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry/removing-motorway-hard-shoulders-increases-danger-say-motorists)

davew wrote:

Err..... because, unlike a flat, a blown bulb is not going to mean you are then motionless by the roadside and maybe in a danegrous situation ??

So why wouldn't they also supply a spare battery, coolant hoses, ignition coils and anything else that can fail without warning leaving you stranded in a dangerous situation?
davew wrote:

Your remark about manufacturers (albeit tongue-in-cheek) is correct: We have to 'ask nicely' and pay for stuff so they will provide safety equipment that might save our lives....
No, I most definitely did not say they are selling 'illegal' cars so your 'logical' extrapolation on that is incorrect too.....

I never said you did but if you were to buy a car in a country where a set of spare bulbs, hi-vis vests, warning triangle, etc is mandatory then without them the car cannot be used legally. So if a manufacturers supplies a car without them,the car itself isn't illegal but cannot legally be used.

Gilbertd wrote:

davew wrote:

Err..... because, unlike a flat, a blown bulb is not going to mean you are then motionless by the roadside and maybe in a dangerous situation ??

So why wouldn't they also supply a spare battery, coolant hoses, ignition coils and anything else that can fail without warning leaving you stranded in a dangerous situation?

You did not say that, you said bulbs, and so that is not a valid comparison to a spare tyre..
and adding a list of adiitional things now really does not change that

davew wrote:

Your remark about manufacturers (albeit tongue-in-cheek) is correct: We have to 'ask nicely' and pay for stuff so they will provide safety equipment that might save our lives....
No, I most definitely did not say they are selling 'illegal' cars so your 'logical' extrapolation on that is incorrect too.....

I never said you did but if you were to buy a car in a country where a set of spare bulbs, hi-vis vests, warning triangle, etc is mandatory then without them the car cannot be used legally. So if a manufacturers supplies a car without them,the car itself isn't illegal but cannot legally be used.

**Your 'logical extrapolation' was a very strong (and slightly extreme) implcation however; It's generally best to react to what I actually say (or seek clarification before reacting to what I didn't ?)

Ah, wait.... you mean semantics B/S ? How very helpful ! **

We can indulge in stupid wirds games all day Richard but that is not going to change the fact that not making such 'safety equipment' mandatory here (like some countries do for some reason, perhaps they are smarter than the UK ) it is both subjecting us to greater danger and also frankly taking the 'P'' !

In fact I now wonder how many fatalities have resulted from cars without spares waiting for someone to bring one... say on a Motorway without a hard shoulder ?

"Saving weight" for Emissions reasons my 'A' !!

davew wrote:

(Again) Richard "Marketing B/S" would be if they said "you have to have one of these spacesavers because of Regulation changes"..... and (again) I will let you know what they say. I suspect it is down to Emissions changes and thus associated weight reduction or worse than that - eg. "car buyers are asking for more boot space" and similar nonsense... ie The real B/S: ~ 50% of new cars don't have spares and yet many drivers find this out 'the hard way' ?!

-And perhaps these manufactrers have not noticed all the potholes either - 'great' for sidewall damage - as these really don't seem to feature in their ads. !

Similarly I don't think the comparison with folks carrying spare bulbs (etc) is particularly valid, although isn't that a requirement in France ? (Along with a warning triangle... and which should also be compulsory too. along with a high vis jacket !)..... and a rubber mallet, long breaker bar for the wheel nuts, plus tow rope, shovel....bright hazard lights etc et. (or maybe that's just me !)....

Anyway, that Merc collapsable spare wheel is quite an expensive gimmick too of course.... and I hope they provide a good pump for it in the cars too (and presumably a vaccum pump is needed later so you can actually get it back in the well (?). Not a great believer in "runflats" either, another expensive gimmick, particularly as using them for 10 miles or so trashes them. 'Great' to get you to the nearets tyre fitter but guess what... "special order guv. - but we can get them in a day or two" !!

Perhaps overall the real answer is to ensure manufacturers for both ICE/Hybrid EVs quote MPG/range figures for real world..... a couple of passengers, some 'standard' luggage, a spare wheel and so on.... (and all the other things their lobby would avoid) !

Its probabbly more likely, that given a lot of people don't understand space saver spare wheels aren't suitable for use for an extended period (you must have seen cars running round on them which clearly haven't only just had a puncture, I see them fairly regularly, some of which you see more than a couple of times still with the spare in use) that they just stopped providing them. That and of course, that means if you damage a wheel you have to source another one from somewhere to replace it (and on a relatively new car, that will be a trip to the dealers parts dept to purchase one with plenty of potential for profit).

Bear in mind with the weight reduction it will make a slight difference - maybe only slight, but you only have to look at some of the other fiddles they were doing to boost emission figures to see it would be enough for them (testing with higher tyre pressures than normal, very little fuel in the tank, etc as was exposed with the VW situation)

I understand what you mean there Brian but again it is easy enough (in theory !) to explain with spacesaver to "use for 10 miles maximum or somesuch", and even put that on information on the yellow label (?) If drivers are such idiots as to ignore this then perhaps we should have realised they would do that earlier and only allow full-sized spares (?)

Absolutely agree about all the other Manufacturers 'fiddles' too but at least that was not so dangerous (.....except to our atmosphere !.......)

Seems I'm upsetting Dave more than you are Brian. The point I'm trying to make is why should a manufacturer supply spare parts with a car? It's unnecessary expense for them, it increases the overall weight, which influences not only the emissions but also fuel consumption, and reduces the storage space so benefits the driver in no way at all. Until he gets a puncture and finds that the flimsy jack and wheelbrace supplied won't allow him to change the wheel, if he even attempts it, but the same could be said for any other breakdown..

davew wrote:

I understand what you mean there Brian but again it is easy enough (in theory !) to explain with spacesaver to "use for 10 miles maximum or somesuch", and even put that on information on the yellow label (?) If drivers are such idiots as to ignore this then perhaps we should have realised they would do that earlier and only allow full-sized spares (?)

Absolutely agree about all the other Manufacturers 'fiddles' too but at least that was not so dangerous (.....except to our atmosphere !.......)

The environment yes, but also to your wallet as the purchaser. If you state it will do 50mpg and realistically you have no chance of doing so, then its not exactly good. Worse still if some engage in that sort of dishonesty whilst others don't Only useful as a benchmark when others are cheating the tests in the same way really.

Its not just a case of 10 miles (or whatever is specified on the wheel/car) - its also at reduced speed but would anyone ever pay attention to that?

I get Richard's point about the spare, though its one of the few parts of the car that can suffer failure by damage quite easily, Its also alot easier to change the wheel on some cars than some of the bulbs. There are a few people I wouldn't trust to change either of those items though.

How grumpy do the French police have to be to nick you for not carrying spare LED headlights? :)

Space-savers are crap. They're sketchy as hell and basically just enough to get you to a tyre shop. I'd rather have a full size spare and be able to carry on my journey.

Sadly, the first "upgrade" that most BMW owners do is replacing run-flats with tyres that don't feel like concrete boots so they're not a fantastic option either.

Having said that, I don't carry a spare at all in my LPG cars unless I'm on a long trip. The Jeep came without the carrier and the Duchess no longer has a spare wheel well.

WOW you lot over their are up against it , how do you think all this would go in Australia , cruising the Nulabor 500+kms from fuel stops 60+degree roads surfaces and nothing but red dirt for 2000kms (3days from melbourne to perth) .kangaroos that run faster than your car and look down at you through the windows (go the space saver) but all the EV drivers will be ok because we now have diesil powered generators for EV charges for them.(yes its a thing). this bullshit
about the environment just keeps getting better
whats the go with the election , which way do yo see it going , do you think corbin will win or boris

Mad-as,
Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right - either way it's a car crash. Labour lost the plot a few years back, Conservatives more recently - oh for the days when parties aimed to capture the electoral middle ground