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Joined: Nov 16 2016
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No need to spell out the implications if Corbyn were running the shop.. IF :-(
Anyone else alarmed?

Edit - That's zero net carbon emissions (not gross)... But can't see how there'd be much scope to make negative carbon emissions (planting trees etc), in which case net must be similar to gross, which implies no internal combustion engines?

Also seems like both Labour and SNP are intending Glasgow to be the first place to go ice engine free zero carbon emission.

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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ANY politicians making 'plans' that are 10+ years away (when they are so often long gone) are seriously 'full of it' (obviously).... How Dare They !!

Also I am never alarmed by any politicians making 'promises'.... if they actually 'add up' ! eg. Apparently we can all have more money for the police, schools, NHS etc etc £1bn for Electric cars and planting milliona of trees and we will pay for this with - wait for it - tax cuts..... !!?

Perhaps Dominic Cummings will decide we really all will be fooled again if these 'promises' are just written on the side of a bus ?

Maybe.... but unfortunately it is THIS bus: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SfWR0PeEnTM

“Hang on a minute lads – I’ve got an idea” indeed.... A precipice ? A slippery slope ?? Surely not .....
It's just The Self-Preservation Society !

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I doubt many believe it possible in 11 years... but if they try to pull it off it will have an effect on us while they're trying.

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Joined: Sep 02 2016
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It does not realiy matter if it is 11, 21, 31 years of course..... and even banning Cotton Buds and Straws etc is basically a 'joke'
but it gives us an idea how totally clueless they all are about it (and how stupid they believe us all to be for that matter ?)

Fortunately it's probably all Academic as there are now kids who are smarter than 'Presidents' (be they Trump or Johnson):-

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/greta-thunberg-admonishes-world-leaders-in-furious-un-speech-1.4027750

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Joined: Jan 07 2016
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HA! Good luck with that one......Let us know how long the momentum lasts? Till Greta's boat goes down in a storm perhaps?
So, you guys think you have it bad?
Try living in California! The Numpties have taken over, and it looks bad for ICE powered dinosaurs here!
This is one of the many reasons why we are upping sticks and shifting base to Oregon, where (Relatively) saner
minds are still in control.
In the meantime, I have been doodling with an electric conversion for an P-38.........
No plans to build one until necessary, but oddly, it is doable. 10 years out, it may be more doable.....

So, as you folks have a vast knowledge base for Lpg powered ICE, how about a slight mod and using
Hydrogen in place of LP? I know some folks who have been using home made Hydrogen for stoves and heaters
for years. I have seen a standard generator running on Hydrogen using Lpg system as well.
We are seeing Hydrogen filling stations popping up here in Calif.......
I know you need a SS exhaust as the products of combustion are water....

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Joined: Jan 16 2017
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Bolt wrote:

HA! Good luck with that one......Let us know how long the momentum lasts? Till Greta's boat goes down in a storm perhaps?
So, you guys think you have it bad?
Try living in California! The Numpties have taken over, and it looks bad for ICE powered dinosaurs here!
This is one of the many reasons why we are upping sticks and shifting base to Oregon, where (Relatively) saner
minds are still in control.
In the meantime, I have been doodling with an electric conversion for an P-38.........
No plans to build one until necessary, but oddly, it is doable. 10 years out, it may be more doable.....

So, as you folks have a vast knowledge base for Lpg powered ICE, how about a slight mod and using
Hydrogen in place of LP? I know some folks who have been using home made Hydrogen for stoves and heaters
for years. I have seen a standard generator running on Hydrogen using Lpg system as well.
We are seeing Hydrogen filling stations popping up here in Calif.......
I know you need a SS exhaust as the products of combustion are water....

Far as I can tell, it seems its not the getting an engine to run on Hydrogen thats the problem, its the producing it without using loads of energy to do so (as this typically comes from the same sort of fuels your trying to get rid of using to fuel the vehicles in the first place, so is just shifting the problem, much like a battery powered vehicle, the extra weight also means extra load and of course a battery doesn't get any lighter when its flat, unlike an empty petrol tank). Theres two Hydrogen filling points here - Cobham services on the m25 and Beaconsfield on the m40. With plans for another 4 (3 of which are in the London area again, the other one being Derby). Its some way off being useful to a car with a single fuel source as you'd be stuck the first time you went to a station to find they had nothing available, but produced from renewables it holds some sort of promise, but could they keep up with demand if it did take off?

There has also been noises about the end of private car ownership recently - I think from the same Labour party that seem unable to beat the current bunch of imbeciles we have in power, which shouldn't exactly be a challenge to them. Also the same party that pushed everyone to Diesel a few years ago, so not exactly well placed to even have an opinion on it really.

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That's an unkind notion Bolt but you do know there are many 'Gretas' and the momentum from them is growing, right ?!

Wait.... isn't the US the primary culprit for CO2 ?? No wonder all those CARB folks are so concerned....

LR already did an electric model of course, 'only' £250K..... and 'reasonably priced' hydrogen cars here are about £70K......!!
Hybrids are much more common but they seem to be a bit of a 'con' too if you're not just pottering down to the shops

Seems leased car sales are taking over from purchased (new) cars now Brian ?

Politicians have little or no idea about technology of course,which explains a lot too....!

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Joined: Jan 07 2016
Posts: 102

Yea, the Push to totally eliminate evil 'ole Carbon is certainly gaining momentum as a selling point for the 24 hour News outlets.....
Gotta keep folks entertained, and in fear or they will switch channels.
Having spent my working life in the Alternative Energy Industry (Designer/ installer for off grid power systems) I have seen Batteries come and go, as well as Fuel cell madness come and go. Fuel cells are now quietly working. I want to see an Hydrogen burning V8, not a fuel cell electric.
I have, over the years, built (Converted) 3 vehicles from petrol to electric. Not tough, or particularly costly......
I completely agree that the issue is the enormous amount of energy needed to crack water for Hydrogen far outstrips the gains. Like electric, it just shifts the pollution from tailpipe to smokestack.
Electric only begins to make sense when ALL of the energy for your car is produced AT HOME by non polluting means.
Interesting side note: The "Carbon footprint" of an Prius is actually higher than a P-38 over a 20 year operational cycle.
This includes resources needed to build both, and fuel / electricity to run them. The deal killer is the Li batteries, which have a massive carbon footprint from mining to installation. A inconvenient truth, totally overlooked by the smug folks in their hybrids.
Oh, and Li batteries are not currently recyclable, as far as I am aware.......Only 5% of all Li batteries in EU are recycled. (2% in US and Oz)
As the energy needed to smelt and refine a Prius battery would probably power it for about 50k miles......
In case you are really interested in the issue:
https://cen.acs.org/materials/energy-storage/time-serious-recycling-lithium/97/i28

But I digress.......Assuming availability of Hydrogen, just how tough would it be to run a V8 on it? Possibly dual fuel? H2 and Petrol?

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CC is Entertainment ?? Oh well... Take it you are a 'Climate Change denier' then Bolt ? The Media is only reporting what the majority of (distingished) Scientists now agree on: https://climate.nasa.gov/scientific-consensus/

Even if there were a market/need for it there is virtually no chance of getting our V8s to run on Hydrogen of course, any more that they could run on Nitro (Glycerene) !

However there is a BIg Push for EVs over here... and I can't even drive my P38 in London already due to ULEV....
https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/features/ultra-low-emission-vehicles-ulev-and-low-emission-cars/

That said (but P38 DSE ownners don't read this) I could see much potential in converting all the (now 'evil') Diesel cars to Electric !?
eg. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4

If you ask Electric Car owners why they have them they have some quite interesting reasons; eg. No Car Tax........ (yet ?).
One of the major issues is if you have a shunt - as the battery packs then need to be checked and that will cost ~ £1.5K...

First Electric Car I saw was 15+ years ago at Vegas, the Chevy Volt (and I think Musk just copied/improved that design ?)
...but didn't GM kill the Electric Car market anyway or was it The Oil Lobby?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Killed_the_Electric_Car%3F

Thanks for the useful Li-ion Pack link Bolt, it is interesting reading ! You are spot on in that all we do is shift the pollution elsewhere.......
but that's also what Politicians can do best too of course - shift the blame elsewhere, other Parties other Countries etc ?

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Joined: Nov 16 2016
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Jeremy Clarkson gave Greta a bollocking in his newspaper feature the other day saying she's young / idealistic / doesn't see the big picture / pointed out a few ironies lol.

Imagine in a couple of years receiving a letter from DVSA explaining that in 12 months time it will be illegal to use your P38, your options are to scrap it or SORN it indefinitely to become a museum piece which you won't be able to buy fuel for in future even if you decided to flout the law. Then you choose either not to run a car or to buy/lease an electric one which has crap range and takes an age to charge on a typical charger. China starts to produce most of the electric cars we buy regardless of where tech was invented, they just copy tech and sell it back to us while China continues to run ice cars and power stations. Net result of a negligible reduction in global emissions, negligible improvement in local air quality (compared to running petrol / LPG cars... diesels were always a bad idea) but a hard knock to way of life.

Should we lead by example and suffer knock to way of life earlier than other countries whilst (as a small country and a relatively clean emissions one at that) having minimum effect on global emissions and climate change because other countries aren't following the example?

Ability to run cars on hydrogen, production of hydrogen, production and recycling of Li batteries are covered above so I won't go over that much again. Yes we can convert ice cars to run on hydrogen using some of the same components we use for LPG conversion but with a different tank, fuel lines and pressure reducer. Tanks and other components can be difficult to design for hydrogen, apparently it degrades metal. Engines running on hydrogen make about only half as much power as on petrol or LPG so you might need V8 power even in a little car but more likely you'd get a 3 cyl turbo or a fuel cell.

EV's (battery) and perhaps even hydrogen - Your emissions now comprise nuclear waste and what comes out of the smoke stacks. Battery worse than face value due to energy that goes into mining lithium and recycling.

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Don't think Clarkson really has much to say of use these days - unless it is based on his 'I am simply paid to provoke/entertain folks and pander to my fans' territory as Bolt mentioned..... and/but he did vote 'Remain' !!

In fact I have tried talking to concerned kids about reducing their dependency on Chinese products but they don't seem keen (at least if you can get them off their screens long enough to talk...)

We all will take note of CC at some point, presumably when Wall Street is under water ?

What irritates me about current car engine (ICE) are their tiny 'eco' red-hot-running multi-turba etc etc 'powerplants' that won't last 10 years !?

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But presumably you would agree with Clarkson if he said ice cars shouldn't be banned from the UK in 10 years Dave, after all you run a big engine'd one yourself at the moment lol. No need to be concerned about powerplants dying in 10 years if they're going to be banned in 10 years.

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The problem isn't people like Greta Thuneberg, the problem is the hardline far-right politicians like Trump, Johnston, Corbyn et al who don't really care about the environment but see the whole thing as a great way to sell more debt.

"Hmm, so we can ban combustion engined cars, and get folk to buy electric ones? And we'd sell those on finance deals, like the existing scrappage schemes?" and pound signs flash up in their eyes.

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That doesn't add up to me Gordon. Trump may not care about the environment and doesn't seem concerned whether people take up green stuff like electric cars, doubt he'd want people/US to get into debt over it. Johnson reckons to care about the environment but again doubt he'd want people/UK to get into debt over it. Where do pound signs come into it or just VAT on sales of new cars etc followed by what? Right wingers generally see debt and high taxes as a bad thing more than the left do? Corbyn is more far left wing than far right, he's the fella who's said he wants the UK to be carbon neutral by 2030, I'd bet he's not as concerned about debt private/country as the others mentioned.

On Glasgow being the first to go carbon neutral - If I wasn't allowed to drive my ice car past it and I was visiting Scotland I'd simply avoid the area and route via e.g. Edingburgh A1 M90, as would most people with ice cars, even some logistics companies would avoid it, probably not so good for the local economy. The same might upscale to involve the whole UK if the UK is first to go carbon neutral.

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Joined: Jan 07 2016
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Climate change denier? Certainly not.
I have spent a lot of time in the last 40 years doing meteorology, and ocean sciences study.
My take:
1 Is the climate changing? Yes
2 Does the climate change over time? Yes. This change takes place over various time scales from seasons to centuries.
3 Are humans, by introducing carbon to the atmosphere causing climate change? No
(However there is a LOT of $$ to be made by saying we are solely responsible for planetary warming.)
4 Are we, by introducing carbon to the atmosphere contributing to, or accelerating the current warming cycle? Possibly.
5 Is there any practical way to stop or even reverse the current trend? No

Theoretically, to effect any type of change in the trend line towards warming would require the total shut down of all fossil fuel use GLOBALLY
and like....Tomorrow. Sorry, not gonna happen. Let's say it did? still, on a natural warming trend. Shoot, England is still
warming from the last little ice age you had not too long ago!
Good point about the youth movement tho' Try to get your kids to wear only organic hand loomed hemp fiber clothes, no mobile devices
as they are petroleum dependent, no synthetic fibers at all. No objects made of steel or any metals at all for that matter as their production
requires fossil fuels.....
So, NO cars. Period. Planet wide. How long would it take to make that transition without the world economy totally collapsing?
To conclude:
I see the issues on all sides. I have no solution.
Great debate material though!

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davew wrote:

However there is a BIg Push for EVs over here... and I can't even drive my P38 in London already due to ULEV....
https://www.greencarguide.co.uk/features/ultra-low-emission-vehicles-ulev-and-low-emission-cars/

Errm, yes you can, it just costs you £12.50 on top of the Congestion charge of £10.50 (if you have an autopay account set up, more if you don't). The UK, or at least the TFL nod towards reducing pollution is to charge anyone that wants to drive into the Zone if they don't have a car that meets their criteria. Nobody is banned, you just have to pay the tax.

As they seem to think I have a bit more knowledge of the subject than some, at work I've been put in charge of selecting the replacement vehicles for our current fleet of Renault Kangoo vans. Not an easy task. Most of the fleet are 2015 so are Euro 4 diesels meaning my employers have to pay the £23 every time I have to venture into the Zone. We've got a couple of later ones which are Euro 6 so there's no ULEZ charge on those, just the Congestion Charge. With other cities also talking about introducing ULEZ zones, what do we go for? Electric? With most of us doing between 100 and 200 miles in a day, range means they are a non-starter (and the Tesla Model X is just a tad expensive). Hybrid? Only two commercial variants currently available, the Mitsubishi Outlander (too expensive) and the Transit Custom (too big) so how about a Hybrid estate car? Most are Plug-in Hybrids meaning the driver will have to plug it in at home overnight so how do we reimburse the employees for paying to fuel their company vehicles? Although in talking to the guy at our lease company, some clients have gone for the Outlader to get the £8,000 Government grant and at the end of the lease period they had come back with the charging cable still in it's polythene bag never having been used, they'd been driven solely on petrol for the entire lease period. So then it's down to self charging hybrids and how many of them are there? The answer is not many (and they are also bloody expensive). So the bottom line is it's looking more and more likely that the next vehicles will be petrol.......

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Personally to me it seems to be a load of carp.,

What about HGV's etc that Have to use Diesel, don't see there being an EV HGV in 10 years, unless some genius lives among us!!

Vans are another issue, basically anything commercial just can't run off of Leccytric.

The Voice for LPG seems to be getting louder though, and i've seen a fair few stories regarding LPG conversions in london going stratospheric!

I myself don't see how it would be possible for all this to happen by 2030 i thought 2040 was optimistic. LOL

LPG's growth IMO is inevitable, especially in the commercial sector, and it'll also benefit us IE more stations prolly a reasonable price too!

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StrangeRover wrote:

Personally to me it seems to be a load of carp.,

What about HGV's etc that Have to use Diesel, don't see there being an EV HGV in 10 years, unless some genius lives among us!!

Vans are another issue, basically anything commercial just can't run off of Leccytric.

The Voice for LPG seems to be getting louder though, and i've seen a fair few stories regarding LPG conversions in london going stratospheric!

I myself don't see how it would be possible for all this to happen by 2030 i thought 2040 was optimistic. LOL

LPG's growth IMO is inevitable, especially in the commercial sector, and it'll also benefit us IE more stations prolly a reasonable price too!

You'd think so on the LPG front, but if thats the case, how come stations are closing or left out of order for months on end? London area, it will be partly the taxi drivers looking at options for their existing vehicles driving a lot of it I would guess. I've seen a few LPG converted Toyota Prius about - all of them taxis. alot of the problem is there is a significant amount of people who will happly take up whatever shiny vehicle they can afford on PCP, so don't own it and hence can't convert it, combine that with the various other credit options and the lack of any UK manufacturer converted vehicles and it leaves only older vehicles available for conversion. Thats before you take out any that can't be converted or its not work converting for the most part (Direct injection Petrols, Small cars with no real space to spare for a tank, Diesels which yes can be converted via Fumigation, but its not common to see and payback is very slow on them) and its leaving you very limited.

Lorry wise, LNG has existed and a few of the big names have had a go at using them, John Lewis uses some vehicles on that. But takeup is very limited and subject to change as things progress, Optermistic for any of the dates they state, when have they ever managed to deliver anything as they promised though? Brexit? HS2? I've seen them state 2027 for a full fibre rollout to the whole country for internet (and analogue phone line switch off) and I doubt they could even manage that, which would be much simpler than what they hope to achieve as far as this is concerned. I'd suspect its more likely they would be forced to prevent the registration of any new vehicles rather than banning what already exists from being used and wait for the amount of vehicles to decrease as they get to a point where they aren't able to be used anymore.

London wise, the problem isn't just the ULEZ - the parking round alot of the congestion area is also loaded by 50% ontop of the base rate for older vehicles, anything pre 2006 on petrol or pre 2015 Diesel gets a higher rate charged than a newer vehicle. And its all phone based for on street parking so no way to avoid it as you have to enter your reg number to park.

Simon - typically the trunk routes through any of those areas are excluded from the zone as such - the A38 through Birmingham when they bring their zone into play is supposed to be outside of it, same with the roads around the congestion zone in London, just means really you can't go into the last bit of the journey. Though of course that may change with time.

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There are a few non-ICE Commercial Vehicles in use here right now StrangeRover but you are right that if Diesel was such a problem then more would be converted, and quickly.... again Politicians can say what they like 2030/2050 etc but it is all just meaningless garbage (aka Sound Bites) of course ! London (Diesel) Black Cab Drivers can get a grant to change, but it is more or less pityful....

No Bolt, I didn't say/imply CC was wholly man-made (but I do get a bit twitchy when folks start with the Ice-age stuff and yes it makes for a good debate), but, and absolutely, kids are really smartening up to Politicians having a 'lmited shelf life' themselves....... and why ($$$):-https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/greta-thunberg-admonishes-world-leaders-in-furious-un-speech-1.4027750

Sorry Richard - missing words - " and I can't even drive my P38 in London this w/e already due to £25 ULEV...."
You might be surprised how many think it doesn't apply at weekends (or for that matter 24/7) .....!!
Not so concerned about businesses as they can claim/claw it back of course.

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Joined: Jun 17 2018
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Weird that the "increased" popularity of LPG has resulted in a decline of available stations?!

Weird.

The Push for EV's has grown in the city.

But TBH i don't see where the Gov is going to get the cash to invest the Billions they have planned into the EV industry.

Isn't the grid already at capacity?

What happens when a few Million EV's plug in?