DavidAll

I used one of the big 21 piece "G-Clamp" style swivel / ball joint removal kits (like E-Bay 401674598831) to do my right hand side steering joints back in the early summer last year. Allegedly the 10 piece ones don't have all the sleeves you need. Did the deed but really struggled with the top joint. Wound it up uber tight with a 4 ft scaffold pole 3/4" drive breaker bar and basically left it for three days giving it the occasional heave and obligatory whack with a club hammer when I felt like it. It gave in on the morning of the third day and actually came out quite easily. Bottom one wasn't quite as much of a struggle but still took some serious heaving. Didn't like the way the screw rubbed against the top joint bore when wound up tight so I made a top hat shaped bush protector from alloy to keep it straight. Despite being seriously hefty that clamp body bends! The E-Bay pictures don't give a proper idea of how massive, and heavy, it is. Dunno if the straighter pull helped things move or not. Would expect it to.

That being quite enough excitement for a while I left the left hand ones until October. In the interim I made a knock off of the pukka Sykes-Pickavant 1877100 tool (https://www.chrometrader.co.uk/automotive-tools/steering-suspension/ball-joint-removal/sykes-pickavant-18771100-swivel-ball-joint-tool-d2-p38-c-w-press-frame-ram.html) using the 12 ton ram and slotted bar out of my big hydraulic puller set. Just had to make a base to support the sleeves. Used the long hold down rods from my milling machine clamp set to tie the ram carrier to the base. Sleeves and other bits from stock.

Pulled the joints out with no great effort. Certainly the way to go. Shoulda made a note of the sleeve and pusher sizes needed for other folk. Besides the aforementioned G-Clamp set I have a 32 piece bearing race / seal installation kit and a 36 piece universal pull & press kit about the place so, having plenty to choose from, I tend to forget how much harder it is for normal (sane) folk lacking the toolaholic packrat genes. Prolly about £50 to replicate my knock off, complete with E-Bay sourced ram, if I knew the size of sleeve to make.

I really don't think the extortionately priced Laser Tools ET6293 (https://www.shop4autoparts.net/tools/land-rover-tools/ET6293-BALL-JOINT-REMOVAL-TOOL-DISCOVERY-2-RANGE-ROVER-P38-6293/) is up to the job. After discovering that their front radius arm bush tool kit doesn't, and can't, fit I'm off Laser for life anyway.

Considering alternatives the BMW 3 series ball joint kit E-Bay 123519400770 looks seriously husky but obviously the sleeves will be the wrong size and suitable P38 size ones will have to be made or found. The twin side rods give a balanced pull so it ought to work better than the offset G-clamp type.

The major risk when doing steering knuckle ball joints is that the ABS sensor won't come out needing to be destroyed before the hub can be pulled out. Both mine had to be destroyed. Ended up machining the old tension bushes out on the Bridgeport. Even with my big playroom toybox that gave me some worries. Ordinary guy on the drive would be totally stuffed. Odds are the hub unit is well fretted in too. I was glad I'd kept the scrap disks when I replaced mine a couple or three years back as it gave me something I could safely hit without worrying about damage. Broke one!

Clive

RutlandRover

Agree that Lemfoder is significantly more expensive. Be unsurprised if you spend a third (or even more) less than me on a full suspension refurb. Probably not notice the difference, if any, in performance too.

Clive

Re Axle Stands

The four new 6 ton ratchet style, Wolf branded ones I bought cheaply off E-Bay (about £25 a pair) do a good job of putting a P38 up at an adequate working height when placed under the chassis. Model T46001, extension range from 16" to 25" nominal. Used two under the chassis at about half extension on my drive when using my monster high rise ramps for the initial lift. But thats working on one end at time. I got the rubber yoke caps from SGS to save paint damage. Bit of a stretch but they went on with suitable verbal encouragement. Cost nearly as much as one pair of stands tho' which seemed bit off. But the stands were cheap.

Two stands under the chassis, other two under the axle made a very solid support. Definitely not going anywhere un-planned. Which is the way I like things if my precious hide is going underneath two solid tons worth of vehicle!

Rutland Rover
Yup thats right. Only one end of the track rod is replaceable. Standard thread shaft on that one whilst the other is held in with radial (ring) stakes. I don't really see why the thread end is listed separately. Surely no one replaces just one end. I thought the Lemfoder track rod complete was a very acceptable price anyway.

Dinna fash yersel about the special bush compression thingy. Now I've got the dimensions sorted out I can probably make one in less time than it takes to find some material, swop the right boring tool into a QC holder and swivel the lathe topside over to the right angle!

Can't find my original complete suspension refurb parts list but looks like I've got everything in the "You've spent HOW much (this year)!" spreadsheet files. I can pull the relevant sections out and transfer to another spreadsheet if thats any good to folk. Will need bit of formatting to make a good "order this" list tho' as part numbers and descriptions are mixed in single cells and number order is a bit spasmodic.

Clive

I'll have a look through my back-ups tomorrow and see if my complete list of all the suspension replacement parts has survived. Excel format file so easy to handle if it has. Digging the numbers out of the ordered parts lists & P38 costs file might be possible if I can't find the originals.

I'd definitely agree on new bolts all round. Cutting and ripping out if things don't wan't to go is a major time saver. Especially on the front. Best to make sure you have a suitable cutter to hand. I used a 1 mm thick disk in an angle grinder but felt less than safe lying under the car. Garage compressor hasn't got the oomph to run an air saw and my sabre saw is too long and cumbersome. I paid the Land Rover Bolt Tax as life was too short for futzing around looking for decent quality equivalents to save maybe £60, if that.

Clive

(Just two special drain plug / oil union thingies to draw and make for Mr Classic BMW Racer prep guy then I can get back to P38 stuff. What I said last week. Then a box-full appeared on Friday)

Looks like its time I got off my ass, cleaned up and repainted the spare set I have so we can sort out a round robin exchange service with OEM standard bushes.

Gremlins and life in general permitting maybe sometime in week after next. (Would'a been done by now if poxy weeds would stop growing. 12 hours of quality lifetime gone pulling unwanted green stuff out over the last week or so.)

clive

No 2 on radius arm bushes to cure wandering. Mine seemed OK just, the odd wander, so I was surprised how much changing the bushes and the big rubber buffer thingies on the back tightened things up. Probably best to do the job with everything jacked up square. I got 4 big axle stands so I could put two under the chassis and two under the axle before undoing anything to be sure everything stayed in line. At least we don't have to deal with that L322 nonsense of dropping it back onto its wheels, letting the bushes settle to their neutral position and then tightening them up.

Might be worth checking the suspension sensor joints. Pins in the radius arms on mine were well corroded so the linkage movement was "less than smooth". I imagine jerky potentiometer outputs could upset suspension action. Especially in roll. Mine got swanky new stainless steel pins. Back end bushes are on this years job list.

Clive.

Almost certainly deep groove ball bearings.

OT techie stuff.

Deep groove bearings are the most common type because they can carry considerable axial, side to side load, as well as the main radial load. See https://www.astbearings.com/single-row-deep-groove.html . Symmetrical so they don't care which way they are mounted.

If you need to carry more axial, end, load you use angular contact bearings which have asymmetrical races with much more contact area on one side than on the other. See https://www.astbearings.com/angular-contact-ball-bearings.html and http://www.skf.com/uk/products/bearings-units-housings/ball-bearings/angular-contact-ball-bearings/index.html which has a useful picture. If you push them the wrong way they can pop apart. Some types easier than others. Generally used in preloaded pairs. Often opposed to take loads in both directions but sometimes both same way round if the main load is in one direction and other arrangements can be made to stop them pulling apart. Usually expensive, especially machine tool spindle types which usually come in matched pairs ground for specific spacings.

Taper rollers take pretty much equal loads in both directions but have to be used in precisely spaced pairs, which can in practice be much harder to arrange reliably than you'd think at first sight.

Thrust bearings just hold stuff apart with negligible control of wobble.

Clive

RAVE confirms that adaptive values are lost when battery power is removed. Presumably that includes TPS but it doesn't actually say.

Another potential issue is low or unstable supply voltage to the pot due to connection issues. Known to be problem on many other system but ours are usually pretty well behaved. Worth a squirt of cleaner on the connector contacts if the problem persists.

Clive

Yup, normally pressed up together, maybe on splines.

New seal probably in the £10 to £20 retail range if it can be got at all. Motorcycle ones are commonly found as spare parts but car ones will take bit more finding. I imagine suppliers are geared to the hundreds and thousands a month trade sale market not individuals.

Hafta change the outer seal too to keep crap out of the bearing. You'd need to be very sure of bearing condition too if you were going to re-use it. The serpentine belt puts hefty side load on it.

Doesn't seem economic when £40 - £60 gets a half decent new unit good for 50,000 + miles. After all changing a pump you put on yourself is only a couple of hours work if you have the tools and took the time to do the extra stuff to make it easy next time round. DIY reconditioning water pumps is another job life has got too short for.

Clive

Engine compression doesn't have much bearing on whether or not you can shock the nut loose. It's the sharpness of the impulse that matters. If you are holding by a serpentine or similar friction belt drive the stretchiness of the belt ultimately takes the edge off the shock setting a limit to the tightness of the nut or bolt that can be removed. The engine doesn't have time to turn during the impulse but the belt does have time to stretch. Doesn't help that whacking a spanner is a very inefficient way of applying a sharp shock. The shaft bends first then applies the wack to the hex.

I usually strangle a 5 lb club (or 10 lb sledge if its really serious) hammer. More of a punch through than a swing. Heavy head means there is still plenty of energy left in the impulse when the elasticity of the shaft is taken up. The impulse is on the stopping end of the hit not the start. Unfortunately that gives time for the belt stretchiness to get in on the act. Proper impact wrenches and drivers put the impulse on the beginning which is much more effective. The impulse is also very fast which is why you can hand hold against 100 fl lb or more when using an impact gun.

The better variety of battery driven impact screwdrivers include a chart as to how long you have to keep it rattling away to reach a given torque setting. Checked my Makita ones against a torque wrench (yup, definitely Mr Anal here) and found the chart surprisingly accurate. Undoing usually took a couple or three seconds more than doing up. Both the drill / driver and impact driver in my 18 V Makita set will casually snap a 5 mm Screwfix wood screw if you get ambitious. But the drill / driver has a darn good try at taking my hand off at the wrist before the screw snaps under pure torque whilst the impact driver literally just sits there and goes rattle-rattle "snap".

Its all in the speed and energy. Dinging away with a piddly little 2 lb engineers ball pin rarely gets you anywhere serious, although the long, fast swing can be a hazard to nearby parts if your aim is off, and a dead blow is largely a waste of time. Dead blows are for pushing things around.

Clive

Put a bit of coppa-slip on mine when I did the front crankshaft oil seal 3 or 4 years back. Still quite tight enough thank you when I came to change the water pump this year. So used it again.

An alternative if you want to seal the thread but aren't quite sure about anti seize is to use a low strength Loctite which not only seals against corrosion but also prevents galling and similar metallic joining issues. 222 Screwlock adds about 10 ft lb breakaway to a 10 mm thread which isn't going to add up to too much on the fan so long as you don't heave it up. Being in Rikki-Tikki-Tava mode I looked up the others for completeness 243 Nutlock will add about 20 ft lb to a 10 mm thread and 270 Studlock about 30 ft lb. Measuring this stuff gets complicated. Book figures are for around 4 ft/lb tightening torque. Just enough to properly engage the threads on the loaded side. Lean on it and strength is rather higher but how much greater gets complicated. Hafta say that book strength of screw lock is greater than I thought. Probably 'cos I've only used it on itty-bitty things.

Bearing fit 641 adds 940 psi to the retention force on a bearing which isn't too shabby. High strength retainer 638 data sheet says 3,625 psi retention force if properly applied. Translation "Not coming out. So there.". 638 is bit harder to use than the other breeds as it has good gap filling properties and strength varies with clearance. Used it occasionally when stuck with fairly loose slip fits instead of drive or light shrink ones. Found that it holds well, real well. Put the part in wrong and its probably time to break out the blow lamp.

Clive

LRCat is your friend http://new.lrcat.com/#!/1234/90127/90555/7166/90660. Naturally i went out with torch and ruler and tried to measure them first. Darn near impossible in the dark.

Pulley on the right PQR101150 is 80 mm diameter, pulley on the left PQR500060 is 70 mm diameter. Officially upper and lower pulleys respectively but I defy anyone to see the difference in height when installed in the car.

Going off topic Re K series engines.
Lpgc is getting the Leyland K series engine mixed up with the BMW motorcycle K series. BMW motorcycle K is a DOHC fuel injected water cooled 3 (K75) or 4 (K100) pot laid on its side. Crank to right, head to left.

Clive

I've fitted up worse looking gasket faces when driven by necessity so should work out OK with suitable care. Important thing seems to be to make sure there are no raised edges on the dings or damaged edges. Scrape a touch deeper if need be to get a smooth entry to the ding. Had a Klingerite type self adhering gasket supplied when I did mine. I know you aren't supposed to use gasket goo on those but mine got a coat of Welseal, like almost everything does, Welseal never completely hardens much beyond super-tacky so if it ever has to come off again I won't have to scrape half the gasket off the engine casting. My back was seriously unimpressed after scraping off the remains of the old one.

So far as mass production factory "off the machine" quality is concerned a visit to the BMW motorcycle factory in Berlin a couple or three years before the wall came down was illuminating. In a not particularly good way. In particular a pile of imperfect K series heads on the floor awaiting re-work all looked well beyond saving!

Clive.

Well mine was sealed so looks like a new policy.

Delivering a component with flat smooth mating faces is a basic fundamental to anything that bolts on with a gasket. If a company can't get that right it doesn't exactly give confidence in their ability to get the other, less visible, things right too. Looks like Airtex is behaving like another "box brand". Buy in components and take delivery ready packed in boxes branded with their logo. Totally dependant on their supplier. Nearest thing to Quality Control probably the sample product inspection when the production contract is issued or renewed.

Its worrying that Island 4x4 are willing to risk their reputation by dealing with a supplier whose products have to be inspected before delivery. Especially when said inspection is to a lower standard than the original requirements which probably included mating surface roughness and flatness specifications along with a catch all "free from scratches and the objectionable surface defects". OK I don't have access to a Laser Talysurf these days, probably overkill anyway, but everything gets held up to a straight edge and often a quick surface quality comparison against a set of Rubert standards. Excessive, maybe. Anal, yup, we established that ages ago. I have been known to re-machine mating faces on hard to get stuff, not P38 related.

Britpart own label is different of course. 50% savings for "how lucky are you feeling today" risk. The fiscal basis for which I've never really understood. With todays manufacturing methods and volumes on rather old tech, not uber precise, components it would seem cheaper to do a decent job in the first place than resort to the slap dash, haphazard systems associated with poorer work of highly variable quality.

Isn't there some sort of legal requirement that branded stuff sold individually packaged, or at least retail, should have the "makers" address and contact details?

Ah-Hah. Pay-dirt. Looks like Airtex-ASC http://airtexasc.com might be the parent company. Contact link on home page gives phone number and separate E-Mail links for fuel and water pumps. Product finder comes up with our P38 water pumps too. Maybe worth an E-Mail, with picture.

Clive

Send it back, not fit for purpose with marks on the mating faces.

Mine came in a sealed box with some packing, not much but enough.

Island are usually good but I've had one or two items a bit close to the bone packing wise. Drag link came down in just its own blue bag as supplied by Lemfoder with my address label wrapped on the end in a less than flat manner. Fortunately flat enough to read but it was fairly obvious the thing had not been handled that well. Fortunately I'm on a short delivery run with minimal handling.

One of my TRW brake calipers came in an unbranded, apparently second time round, box. But it had the paperwork and was un-molested so it went on after a forensic level examination. Helped that I had its mate from a factory sealed TRW box to compare it to as there was no TRW identification on the calliper itself.

Clive

Thing against the whacking with a hammer method is that its very easy to damage the hex on the nut.

The spanner felt unhappy on mine first time through but, taking that as evidence it had been off before and probably wasn't uber tight, it got a couple of whacks at the best fitting position. Which didn't work. So I sorted the tools and discovered it was uber tight! Continued whacking would have destroyed the nut before the fan shifted. In retrospect I'm surprised that the BritPart spanner didn't spread its jaws.

Which was about where I realised that a previous mechanic had a tool box heavy on hammers but light on spanners. Now everything gets a carefully jaundiced look before I put a tool on it for the first time. Fortunately he hadn't done much work on the car.

My nut got welded up and carefully re-machined back to a clean hexagon before it went back on.

In my book some of the savings on labour costs doing DIY should be invested in the proper tools so you can do the job fast and easy. When you have a job, home life and family to run playtime is in short supply!

Clive

Yeah fan does need to come off.

Best to get, or make the proper tools. Putting a spanner on the nut and whacking it often works. But when it doesn't you look a right lemon and have to put things back together until the tool arrives. Its been over 30 years since I was young enough for that sort of malarky. Pretty much falls off with the right tools. Every time.

I bought a BritPart spanner, even they couldn't mess that up, so cheap that making would have been a criminal waste of time. Made the holding tool tho'. Dimensions and drawings for both somewhere if anyone needs them.

Printed version of RAVE suffers from the "see this section" jumping around. Wouldn't be so bad if there were page number references so you could find it fast on a printed version. Great on a computer with the hot links working tho'. I usually skim through the one on the computer and put markers in my printed out version. Before I printed the whole thing out I'd do job specific sets and pop them in loose leaf folder wallets in the right order. If I needed torque settings from the main list I'd print that too and highlight the ones I needed for the job.

OK so I'm anal about things. But an hour of indoor desk prep work the evening before gets you in the mood and gives a walkthrough of what needs to be done. Hafta say that since printing out the complete RAVE I've dropped the odd clanger or gone round Robin Hoods barn by ASSuming I knew exactly how things went. Nowt serious in the big scheme but adds up to a few hours I'll never see again.

Clive

No 2 for Airtex water pump. Fitted one earlier this year. Quality of manufacture looked good and no issues. Can't remember if it came with a gasket in the box tho'.

Clive

Island are a bit cheaper at around £140 but LR Direct have "Original Equipment in plain box" at just under £100 : https://www.lrdirect.com/STC8535-Mudflap-Kit-New-Rr-Front/?keep_https=yes . Not quite so bad.

I sucked it up and paid the Land Rover tax when I did mine 4 years back. Metal work was rusted, broken and detached so I figured anything used probably wouldn't be seriously better. Considered re-making the metalwork to re-use my still good rubber but sanity set in "life is too short" so I bought a new set following my usual "do it once" philosophy.

Clive