Oh bum. Its Britpart or bust!

Chasing round this morning and P38 steering boxes seem to be very thin on the ground. All I can find ex stock are Britpart pattern or used "think it works OK" quality from breakers. LR Direct have best price for Britpart £456 including tax but no seals or arm lock-washer. Seals & lock washer are another £44.00 from Britcar who seem to be the only people listing them for fast supply. £500 for a steering box I'm not sure I can trust.

Guess mine goes off for recon as soon as I've got it changed.

Not the best of weekends.

Clive

Unless the power assistance system is on the way out or the damper is silly stiff you won't notice any difference at the wheel. Force you feel at the wheel is set by the internal torsion bar in the box connecting the steering column and worm. The bar twists when you turn the steering to open the appropriate spool valve to provide hydraulic assistance. Spool valve opening is proportionate to torsion bar twist. For all practical purposes the power steering system keeps the force at the wheel constant. If the actual load on the other end is greater then the bar will twist a smidgin more which theoretically means a bit more turn on the steering wheel but good luck with detecting that.

Steering damper is provided to control movement when loads on the steering change suddenly. Like one wheel on nice dry pavement and one falling into loose sand. Limits the rate of movement whilst the torsion bar twist and internal damping in the hydraulic system sort themselves out. Its dynamic, rate of change damping more than static force that is important. Bigger tube and more oil in the Terrafirma version just means it can work longer and harder without getting so warm that damping goes to pot.

Might matter to Baja or Paris Dakar types. But, as usual with most fashionable performance upgrades, the gains are where normal people never go. So long as basic build quality is up to scratch can't see any downside.

Clive

OldShep
Thanks for the steer. Nice to have recommendations for known reliable suppliers.

Chris
Know the feeling, I gotta thin things down a bit too. Shift some old bike stuff so there is room for Rangie stuff.

If I go used probably see what the local P38 breaker over Crawley has first. E-Bay can be minefield but always a few to be found.

Britcar have refurbished exchange units by EAC which claim to be OEM, presumably the folk who do the factory ones for Land Rover, at £285 + VAT once you have reclaimed the surcharge. Looks to be as good a deal as any from a reliable supplier. But refurbs can be found for half that on E-Bay.

Clive

Chris

Great offer. Thanks.

Had another quick play this morning. Definitely no power assistance turning right. Turning left is as it should be so pretty much confirms steering box fault. So probably best to change it.

Choice seems to be used, recon, new pattern (um looks to be Britpart, so that will be a no then) or brand new at a price that which will make the credit card scream in agony.

Clive

Brian

Steering damper would be just too easy! Its fine. With the wheels off the ground steering moves both ways easily albeit perhaps marginally heavier and less smoothly going right.

Try to drive it and there is clearly no power assistance when turning to right. Just possible to muscle it round near to right lock in the space available on my drive. Swings back left smooth and easy just as it should.

Far as I can see its got to be either trapped air or spool valve not opening.

Maybe a full drain and oil change would help.

Clive

Ready for road test after all brake work and find the steering is very stiff when trying to turn right. Turning left is fine but going right wards feels like there is no power assistance. Is it simply air in the PAS system needing bleeding out or is it more serious.

Quickly lifted it on the jack and checked that everything turns fine both ways with the wheels off the ground. Sat front axle on stands and twirling back and forth with pump running in the hope of shifting any air. Feels slightly heavier going rightwards but hard to tell if thats meaningful. Opening bleed nipple on steering box gives an ooze of oil. Is this right or should it gush!

About the only cause I can think of its that I had the steering well to the right when removing the old drag link. Which was very stubborn and had to be hit to shift it. Not something I like doing but I wanted finish replacing all the steering swivels this year as everything was showing wear. Could be coincidence and steering about to go wrong I suppose.

Saturday shop by motorcycle now!

Clive

OK. Late night panic over.

Spent some quality time underneath with a wire brush and vernier gauges. Turns out hexagons on the short garage made pipes are non standard sizes. Mostly 9 mm A/F but the worst one is 1/8 whitworth albeit rather battered where a metric open end has been used. The 9 mm ones have suffered from open ended spanners but re-making the short pipes with proper sizes will be easy so I'll probably cut the pipe and call it done.

Turned out that long pipes are in kunifer with 10 mm A/F tube nuts. Not perfect, fitted with an open end again, but proper brake pipe spanner fits well enough so should undo without having to destroy the pipe as I feared last night.

Time to invest in some more good brake pipe spanners.

Clive

You're not kidding. Stainless is bloody expensive. £5.25 a pop from Automec, slightly better at £17.25 for four from BGC. By my count I'll need 8 so thats £48 or £35. If I had a set of M10x1 chasers for my coventry die head making them would be a no brainer as 11 mm stainless hex is under £15 a metre. But chaser sets are £60 - £70 so I'd need to go into production.

Don't trust the economy range gold tinted sheradised ones. Look to be what was on the garage made short pipes fitted 4 years ago whose hexagons have corroded beyond redemption.

Thanks for finding sources and for size details.

Clive

Well the grand fix the brakes up properly in one hit project has well and truly hit the buffers. All the hexagons on the solid pipe connectors at the rear are severely rusted. Probably not gonna come undone, especially if the same gorilla who overtightened the front ones did the installation. Even if they do come off they certainly aren't going back.

For now flexi pipes and hard pipes are OK so I'll make do with just changing the callipers but something will need to be done in due course. (Which will be after I've got my lift installed for decent working room underneath in an indoor environment.) Looks like the long twin pipes from the booster for my year 2000 car can still be got OEM at about £230 (ouch) but supply of the short ones looks iffy.

Is there a reliable pattern supplier or is it a case of roll your own with Kunifer, flanging tool and a set of screwed unions? I have the tools and enough experience so no issue with DIY if need be. Ready made is easier tho'.

If DIY is the only way to go who does proper Kunifer at a decent price. Last lot I got from a factor was ordinary copper, and too thin at that. Remonstrating with the supplier basically got a shrug "All same stuff innit". Annoying but I didn't get it for brake lines anyway so no great issue. Obviously I want all the fittings in stock before I start so who is a good source for the male screw fittings and are they all same size and threads? Presumably stainless is the best material for the threaded couplings. The short pipes on mine were garage replaced shortly after I got it so only 4 years or so for the hexagons to corrode away. Not good.

About 20 years since I last did a hard pipe replacement DIY style so I'm way out of touch with the market.

Clive

Confirms my worst fears!

When the official Sykes Pickavant made tool has both a monster force screw and provision for walloping the end with a big hammer you know a battle is normal https://primetools.co.uk/product/sykes-pickavant-05050000-land-rover-drop-arm-puller/ . Don't think the weedy Laser / Bearmach et al style offering has much chance unless the car has spent its life in one of the heated motor houses specified by Mr Bugatti.

Am I feeling brave enough to chop the ball joint stem on the car, hook up the 12 ton hydraulic puller, wind it up good'n tight and heat the beast until the taper slackens. At least the swivels are in now, lower one shot as usual, and only got the lock stop to re-make before thats all up together again.

Maybe I'll finish the brake job first before the weather goes. Which was all I intended to do in first place but I had all the other bits waiting ....

Sunshine in October can really mess with your head.

Clive

Drag link ball joint taper is well and truly stuck in the steering drop link. Even a 12 ton ram operated separator won't budge it! Failed removal always abuses things in greater or lesser degree so, even though it was OK before its now got to be done. Whole link is well rusty and seal on wheel end joint is pretty manky too.

Looks like the only way its coming off will be to take the steering drop link off complete with drag link and get medieval with it in the work shop. If I show it the angle grinder and chop ball off the stem so as to have a straight push with the shop press it ought to go.

$64,000 question is how much of battle is it to get the steering drop link off and back on correctly. Do you need a special puller? Official Land Rover device is "impressive" in both price and appearance. Bearmach sell a fairly weedy looking alternative. I can make something to take a 12 ton ram that should be effective.

Clive

dave3d

Great minds think alike and all that jazz. Excellent idea and well worth trying if the sensor is tight, but not too tight. Made similar back in the summer when I did my drivers side swivels. Naturally had to be fancy and over think things by starting with a sheet metal spanner out of some self assembly thingy saved into the "might be useful" box. Bridgeport made short work of opening out to 16 mm with inch (ish) long forks and putting a taper on the end 'cos basic spanner was too thick to go in. Theory being that tapping in would lever up the sensor as it ran over the taper. Didn't work out. Stretched the sensor body to the point where it started to snap. Same thing today doing the passenger side ones. Oh well.

Chopped the protruding end of the sensor off first thing this afternoon with a multi-tool saw so the hub can come out of the swivel without the sensor arguing with the shield. Now there's optimism for you. Bolted a scrap rear brake disk on inside out and two hours of bashing has had no effect. Rain forecast tomorrow so i get to rest up. Suggestions for effective and less agricultural methods gratefully received.

No wonder the drivers side ABS sensor didn't shift back in the summer. Ended up having to cut the sensor out of the carrier thingy and cut that out of the hub. So solidly glued that it wouldn't even collapse. Clearly assembled dry without the lubrication stuff. Expecting same battle with the remains of the nearside one.

Off over t'workshop now to draw up an adapter so my 12 ton hydraulic taper splitter will fit the steering box end of the drag link. Just laughs at the ordinary screw one which managed the the swivel end. Impressive bang!

How do folks without on site machine shop facilities manage when things turn stubborn?

Clive.

ABS sensor pretty much re-defines pig-to-shift if they have been in a fair while. Finally doing my nearside ball joints whilst I have everything out and up in t'air for brake calliper and line change. About 3 hours into the ABS sensor between multiple anointings with Plus Gas and its moved about 1/4". Pretty sure its not coming out in one piece but I do have a spare. Frankly at garage rates if it doesn't move easily sensible approach is to cut the top off, drilling is not the way to go as you are likely to end up with the drill jammed in half a mile of wire, pull the innards and "operate" on the case so the drive shaft comes out. 15 minutes tops with it up on a lift if you have the gear and know what you are doing. What I should'a done but not so easy on axle stands.

Frankly if I were a pro new ABS sensor and Lemfoder link arm would be on the bill automatically. Professional's do it fast, do it once and do it right. Hard to find real professional garages. Most can't get their head round relative cost of parts and time. Especially when new, decent quality but not manufacturer parts are now so relatively inexpensive that fast destructive working is better than careful 'cos I should be able to re-use that unless things are clearly recently changed. Even at home I try far too hard to save things.

Clive

Thanks for the response Dave.

I ended up buying OEM quality flexi hoses, a set of TRW callipers and various other bits'n pieces including banjo bolts and sealing washers. Surprised that the banjo bolts and washers don't come with the callipers. About £15 a pop too. Ouch. Britpart callipers are only about twice the price of the banjo bolts! Given the relative complexity yet another reason to be "worried about Britpart".

Fingers crossed that the weather holds 'cos I put the beast up on 8 axle stands, 4 six (Chinese) ton ones under the car, 2 European two ton ones under each axle today. Hopefully all done by sometime over the weekend including new drag link and nearside steering swivels. The little short flexi pipes at back look challenging.

Discovered that sticking my hand through a sheet of glass was an excellent way to engineer a couple of weeks delay! Red stuff all over the place. Don't try it at home (or work).

Clive

P38 is probably "peak long term / classic 4x4". Basic underpinnings are rock solid. All the weaknesses are known and relatively sortable. Its a really nice drive too. Biggest issue is thirst but thats helped keep the supply of low enough mileage ones to be worth grabbing reasonable. Be nice if an 8x4 sheet of ply would fit inside but hey you can't have everything.

L322 won't cut it. Stupidly complex and fundamentally unreliable on the electronics. Hardly surprising given its a mash up of three different systems. Hard to work on. Corrosion prone. Already into issued with unobtanium can't be fixed or work around issues like steering columns. The amount of problems herladyship has had with her TD6 are unreal. So glad she lives 80 odd miles away out of range of "can you fix it" calls. She is now going into run it into the ground mode before getting a later model. Which really worries me!

I told her to get a P38 on LPG but would she listen. Got her (and puddy cat) staying for a long month from 1 st November so I guess she is getting the keys to mine for re-education in what good car is. If she converts it will probably end up costing me £6,000 to build her one good for 100,000 miles but almost worth it to save ear ache of my cars gone wrong calls on a near monthly basis!

Wouldn't touch a BMW V8 with barge. Several can't be fixed issues put you on borrowed time once over 150,000 at best. Same with gearboxes.

The Rover V8 may be old tech and thirsty but its repairable for not too silly money. Never understood why Leyland didn't slap modern 4 valve heads on to get the thirst down and power up. Relatively simple to do and the pushrod / OHC thing is a non issue for normal road cars. OHC on everything has more to do with manufacturing processes and fashion than technical advantage at sensible RPM. The man who invented the timing belt has a lot to answer for.

Clive

Connects 2 radio auxiliary input adapter for Alpine radio on P38

I got one supposedly suitable for the Alpine radio on my 4.0 HSE model year 2000. Turned out the unit supplied was incomplete and needed another cable at around half as much again direct from Connects 2 after original supplier refused point blank to help. Several E-Mails back and forth to Connects 2 later I think I'd got all the connection data sorted but enthusiasm had more than run out so it still sits in a box somewhere.

If anyone wants it I'm open to modest offers. Assuming I can find it and the essential connection data.

Clive

Yup, agree braided are the way to go and Britpart are certainly last resort. Just gave Merlin a call and unfortunately they don't have the data for the later P38. Goodridge data listing is just one set of 6 hoses for all model years so rear is wrong for 1998 on cars.

Looks like OEM rubber will have to do.

Clive

Front left flexi let go this morning, fortunately only a mile out so made it home, so time to replace the lot as clearly all same age and none look that wonderful. No bulges tho'. Calipers and all as they are well corroded and chances of getting bleed nipples out are low.

Do the flexi pikes come complete with all sealing washers and banjo bolts? Only Britpart seem to be in stock at usual suppliers, are they OK or should I wait for a (hopefully) better brand name such as Allmakes, Bearmach or Nelson? Factory prices are just silly.

Are any of the lower priced calipers safe to get or should I follow first inclinations and buy OEM from TRW.

Do I change the accumulator on spec whilst I'm at it or leave for now as it still seems OK.

Clive

Easy to check. Standard M8 is 1.25 mm pitch, if you don't have a gauge 4 peaks in 5 mm or 8 in 10 mm. 8 mm fine is 1 mm pitch, same as standard M6 so hold an M6 bot up to it as a gauge.

Theoretically there is a coarse 8 mm x 1.5 mm pitch standard but I've yet to find one.

I prefer Wurth Time-Serts to Helicoils for DIY as the expanded in place full bush style lets you use loctite for a better fit and includes proper lead in to the thread on the end collar. Helicoils follow the parent metal expansion in hot areas like cylinder heads. Never figured out whether that is good or bad thing overall. Time-Sert prices are obscene, especially when you include tools, but at least you can be sure they re the genuine article. Economy range Helicoil kits seem to be "helicoil compatible" rather than OE. Which makes one wonder as to quality. Like pretty much everything the devil is in the detail when it comes to making things work really well. Helicoil repair inserts coming out with the bolts seems to have gotten more common recently which may or may not be meaningful. Especially when the full provenance isn't known. Just "It's bust, can you fix it".

If I didn't already have the Time-Sert installation gear I'd probably be buying Keenserts e.g. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Thread-Repair-Keensert-For-M8-Bolt-pack-Of-10-/202418854013?_trksid=p2385738.m4383.l4275.c10 as you only need a standard tap and some creativity for installation. Install tool is handy tho'.

Clive

They do get grotty and cruddy. Mine got my standard squirt with magic release aerosol twice a day for best part of a week before I pulled the bumper off. Needed a bit of shaking and gentle thumping to dislodge crud but then slid out OK. Correction - would have slid out OK if "someone" hadn't put the wheel arch liner in with tab wrong side of bumper.

Don't think the breed of magic squirt makes much difference if you use the twice a day technique. I claim significant reduction in the amount of verbal encouragement and general grunting'n heaving needed for under-car jobs from the several days of squirt treatment. But then I would say that wouldn't I!

Judging by the state of my rear ones, essentially gone, the slide brackets can corrode seriously which wouldn't help removal. But my fonts are good although clearly original.

Clive