Congratulations. Glad you got it all sorted and working well.

Clive

Not done an injection throttle body but have fixed a few carburettors over the years. As Richard said getting the butterfly screws out is a right pain. especially if no parts are available so the old spindle has to be reused after machining down restoring it to truly round for new bushes or sleeving the worn spindle. As I recall it spindle usually shows more wear than body on carbs. Main issue seems to be the force from return springs et al wearing things oval so the spindle is turning lopsided. On a modern injection system the idle system should compensate just fine until wear reaches lunatic levels. Carbs are lots more sensitive if you want half decent idle and low throttle behaviour.

Also need to be very sure that the butterfly screws are going to say put when you put it back together. A fully floating butterfly sans screws tends to have "interesting" effects!

Sort of work I've not done for a fair number of years now. Finally got old and wise enough to turn down (some) major grief jobs!

Clive

Been steadily replacing all the front end joints and bushes over the year. Also did all shock absorbers, OEM rather than genuine which may have been a mild error. Only panhard rod bushes and (maybe) steering damper left to do. Nothing was objectively that bad but all clearly getting old. General feel of the car has become lighter and more responsive as parts were replaced. With almost 90,000 miles up I suspect the steering damper is getting to its sell by date too.

At the beginning of the year I was inclined to agree with road tester and other comments about the P38 having 4x4 handling. Good 4x4 handling but a touch ponderous and not having the road manners of a modern car. Now road manners are well up to modern car standards in any sane use. Any deficiency being due to the inevitable physical dynamics of a tall, two ton, car rather than suspension and steering underpinnings.

Current view on the sometimes derogatory comments about P38 handling is that they have the same source as motorcycling journalists complaining about the Yamaha GTS "funny front end" bike. Too lazy to evaluate how it works and exploit the advantages of its particular dynamics. A P38 will never handle like a V8 Bristol. Polar moments of inertia guarantee that. But it doesn't stop it being very good in practice for all sane use. Whatever the tech types may say rigid axles both ends aren't all bad.

Getting back to tooling the big distinction is whether you need a hydraulic press or whether the tool is self contained with a force screw. I believe the factory ones need a press. I made mine with a force screw. I actually took my bushes out with a press using adapters out of an affordable "universal" bush removal kit. Worked but those radius arms are 'kin heavy and, being bent, awkward to hold dead square on the press with one hand whilst pumping with the other.

Didn't help that my press is the hydraulic bottle jack with a prodder underneath type. Despite being up-engineered compared to the usual affordable import type with a much better prodder guide system its still not really as stable on the push as one would desire. If I were ever to use mine again on radius arm bushes I'd round up an assistant to hold the arm in place and make up a pusher with a central pin to align things properly.

Need to make a receiver tube for my force screw set to take the bush being extracted to make it complete set. Will be done in due course as will arranging a ball race under the the force screw nut. Or maybe just buy a screw, nut and ball race set off E-Bay. Cheap enough.

If you have a "universal" bush kit with a 12 mm force screw all you need is the compression tube for bush insertion. Something I can easily make should folk want one. Best to do batch of 10 or so to use up minimum order quantity of materials and amortise set-up time on manual lathe.

That said if I ever make another tool set for me it will use a 12 ton puller ram and be part of a comprehensive outfit including the tooling to shift steering joints et al too.

Clive

Apart from shifting the front bolts if they are corroded in the job is pretty straight forward provided you can support both car and axle solidly with enough height to swing (big) spanners, breaker bars, ratchets and torque wrenches. I had 6 ton ratchet type axle stands at full extension under the axle and a second set further back under the car taking most of the weight so the axle was close to full droop. Do-able but a bit more room wouldn't have come amiss.

I think I'd have found it much easier if I'd got my scissors type car lift up'n running. Can't reach full height in my garage but could have put axle a couple of foot or so higher if suitable supports were arranged.

Little gotcha is the pivot pin for the height sensors. Mine where, ahem, somewhat corroded. Not available separately, have to buy complete link STC2763. Pause job whilst new stainless steel replicas were made. As I now have drawings its no great problem to make more if need be.

Clive

Guilty as charged.

No problems with loaning out the bush changing tools. Just hafta number them up and write the how to use them notes.

Or I still have my old radius arms about the place so could clean them up, paint and re-bush to do a service exchange job. Like all such jobs its easier second time through.

Hard part is getting the front bolts out. Two of mine came out with a bit of welly two weren't ever coming so had to be cut. If I ever do another set on t'floor I'll set up to cut the bolts "just like that" and job done. Makes getting the bush out harder as the remains of the bolts need drilling out. Not good for a Black'n Decker guy but I have a full blown industrial size pillar drill in the workshop which would cope just fine.

Clive

If there is 12 V power at the connector its worth applying power direct to the unit and seeing if it tries to move, buzzes or gives other signs of life. As the fuse hasn't blown its probably not failed dead short so it should be safe to apply 12 V direct to the unit to see if there are signs of life. Prudent to use battery charger on trickle setting first tho'. Might even start moving if you help it.

Known good used is probably best, economical, fix as new is over £200. Fixing nuts are known to seize which makes removal hard. Start early by regular anointing with plus gas or similar a few days before you intend to do the job and make sure all visible threads are clean before you start removal.

Problems are frequently due to the arm spindle seizing in the long bearing. No provision for lubrication so eventually it all dries out and gets too stiff for the motor to turn. Exactly where it gets too stiff and stops is in the lap of the gods. On one I investigated the park switch had gone daft and stopped it at part travel too. Not done a P38 one but I have opened several of other breeds and fixed them. All of them were very stiff in the bearing. Basic strip, clean, re-lubricate job. As I recall it not exceptionally difficult. As usual when there is no manual to help taking it steady and thinking about how things come apart gets the job done.

Clive.

Helped a mate change the engine in a the Escort van by standing on the wings with a simple doubled rope sling between us to lift it in and out. Certain care needed when scrambling off and on. Hooking the gearbox on with out bending owt needed a jack and considerable verbal encouragement. All removal and installation done between tea and supper. Say 4 hours.

Took the body off a Reliant Regal as the being the quickest and easiest way to do a swop by myself with no lifting gear. Easily light enough to manhandle solo.

Six pot Triumph out of a GT6 was challenging on my own without lifting gear. Bonnet off, everything in front out of the way and a monster skateboard style platform did the deed once I'd figured how to get engine, gearbox and overdrive over the front of the chassis without ripping the steering off. Stage 1 tune probably wasn't the best idea even though it was a MK2 with some pretence at handling.

Clive

Finally all back together this morning with second hand steering box fitted. Naturally I overfilled the power steering reservoir and kept level too high during initial running. Air came out with some impressive gulps and wheezes spraying red Dextron foam all over the left hand inner wing area. But it works.

Replacement box gives lighter steering than the old one so I suspect there was trouble coming anyway. In retrospect better for it to do the sit down strike thing in the middle of a servicing job than in the middle of the motorway. My old box is going off for re-con. Maybe re-fit next year or maybe not. Don't like running on something that vital of unknown history. LR Direct say that I should get refund on that new one once its been examined. We shall see.

Connected the steering up a spline or two out so the U-J comes out tomorrow to be re-set. All cleaned up and copper slipped when I slid it back together so thought it will come out easy. Really. Got back from shopping at 4 pm this afternoon, "only take half an hour so I'll do it now". Optimist. Doesn't want to shift. Par for the course on this job it seems.

Decided to change the brake pressure accumulator whilst things were de-pressurised. Intended to do that when I did the brakes but didn't have time due to limited availability of assistant for bleeding. About the easiest job on a P38! Right! Snapped my strap wrench trying to undo the old one. Eventually found a slim AF spanner that would slip on the hex at the bottom to undo it. 10 minutes later job done. Really needs a bent spanner to slip in easily. Time to root round the boot fairs for a candidate to be thinned and modified. May never do the job again but if I do I want it to be easy.

Clive

The saga continues.

Finally got the steering arm off on Monday night. Wound the screw pusher into the heavy duty balljoint splitter Friday night after 12 ton ram had leaked back. Couple of decent heating cycles with a big propane torch over the weekend along with anointments of PlusGas. About 9 pm Sunday it got another tweak and a couple mighty whacks on the splitter with a club hammer. Jumped apart on the second one. Yay. Result.

As a backstop I'd ordered a second hand one just in case the arm wouldn't come off. Arrived on Tuesday after I'd got back from buying Dowty seals having received an E-Mail from Craddocks said they couldn't supply the 14 mm ones and would have to order them in special. Whats with these people. 3 working days to tell me they hadn't got them. So used to not being able to get stuff round here that I'd forgotten that there is hydraulics place next town over who stock such things. 50 pence each + twenty miles on the bike. So I got ten in both sizes. Annoying that I'll be stuffed best part of £40 for OEM ones I don't need but such is life.

Just to make life interesting one of the bolts holding the washer bottle in had snapped off in it's welded on nut thingy. So I got the pleasure of drilling all that out. Naturally things didn't go straight so a Timesert thread insert wasn't gonna fly. Made up a 1/2" x 20 tpi UNF insert, tapped it 8 mm, loctited it in place with an 8 mm aircraft quality button head allen bolt running in from t'other side so one of the washer tank fixings is now a stud. She'll do.

Went to fit the new steering box this afternoon and the centralising indicator position didn't look right. An hours worth of playing measuring, counting turns interspersed with mutterings of the "But its a brand new ZF unit!" type I finally concluded that the indicator was indeed about 1/3 rd of turn out. Probably just been fitted wrong but I'm not messing about with a brand new unit. Called LR Direct and they were remarkably helpful considering its not their fault. They've made arrangements to have it picked up on Friday, it will go back to Britpart for examination and I should get my money back sometime next month.

Should've listened to Richard and just got a second hand one in the first place. Still the used one is on now. Steering column to connect up tomorrow and everything to torque down before its all fixed. I hope. I shall get mine re-conditioned in due course and put it back as I know its history.

Clive

Axle stands sounds a good idea. Easiest to pre set them so the chassis will be at normal height or just above then raise the car on the suspension, push the stands underneath and drop the suspension down. If you've not got suitable stands I'm impressed with the 2 pairs of 6 ton rated ratchet type I got off E-Bay. Came in Wolf branded boxes. About the cheapest ones with locking pin but still decently made with nice big feet. Managed to find some rubber caps for the forks too. Got the 6 ton ones because they are tall enough for working under the car.

If its acceptable to close off the ends of the car port hanging a loosely fitted tarpaulin each end makes big difference to protection. Laced side and top with gaps so the air can vent alongside the car.

Clive

no10chris wrote:

If I remember correctly, we used a big hammer, ball joint splitter, and a fork splitter,
It’s been on there a while, I’d give it some plusgas, let it soak then a few good pneumatic shocks should do the job.
Otherwise I’m wondering if a plate surrounding it and a 2 leg pulled should do the same as the proper puller

Hooked the 12 ton ram puller on via the big flat bearing puller plate both cold and heated with a medium size Sievert propane torch. Which didn't do owt except bend the connecting studs and also the joining studs (5/8" diameter) of the bearing pulling plate. Ooops! Cant hammer on a hydraulic puller. Currently sat there done up as hard as it will go using the three legged set up. Well anointed with PlusGas of course. At least its centralised and pulling straight

Not thought of ball joint splitter. That 12 ton ram also goes in a heavy duty lever type ball joint splitter. Probably about 3 or 4 times force multiplication and you can smack it with a hammer so think I'll try that before spending some quality lathe time.

Fork splitters are not my favourite tools. Significant risk of bending and lots of effort lost in sliding. Reckon that as what got me into trouble with the drag link. Heat, lever puller and good smack shifted that.

Clive.

Redraptor141

Thanks for the advice. I'm usually pretty gung ho about trying to fix things but I'm none to sure if venturing deep into the hydraulics of power assisted steering is a good idea for someone with limited experience in hydraulics. Seals and such like yes. Valves, seatings springs et al not so sure given the specific failure and lack of test gear. Two tons of P38 suddenly deciding its not turning right at motorway speeds could be .... terrifying...at best!

Looking at the sectional diagram in RAVE I'm pretty sure I know what the problem is. There is a bypass valve in the piston head open circuiting the power assistance just before the steering goes to full lock so the last bit of movement up to the locksteps is manual only. So if the steering is set right its nigh on impossible to hit the stops! The valve comprises a pair of balls sprung loaded apart in the piston head which are pushed by pins as full lock is approached. One pin in the body whose protrusion is set by screw adjustment and the other on the end of the recirculating ball screw worm. My diagnosis is that when dealing with the drag link, which really, really didn't want to come off the drop arm I pulled the steering right over to the end of the right hand travel so the ball got pushed further than it had ever been before and got stuck. One of those shouldn't ever happen but did things.

Right hand lock valve seems to be the one pushed by the pin on the end of the worm screw. So theoretically pulling the body mounted pin, pushing a slim drift in and tapping the other ball ought to shift the stuck ball. If that actually is the problem! Could also muck things up good and proper by coil binding the spring, podging up the seats or even worse. Not going there!

Anyway I have this brand new Britpart steering box to go on when I can get the steering arm off mine. Twelve ton ram in the puller set isn't working so this weekends job is to replicate the Sykes Pickavant screw pusher assembly with internal drive rod https://www.sykes-pickavant.com/products/suspension-tools/ball-joint-removal/1579 and put that in the puller kit.

Interestingly the Britpart pattern steering box has a ZF Made in Germany label so quality should be up to scratch.

Clive

RutlandRover
Spotted that one. Out of stock, have to send mine off to be fixed. Claim 2 or 3 working days after they get it.

Chris
Nope, bought new Britpart from LR Direct as fastest way of getting something that ought to be good enough. Hoping that I have what it needs to shift the arm.

So far not my month for good decisions so fingers crossed!

Clive

Desperation purchase I'm afraid. Can't be impossibly bad or none of the reliable suppliers would list them. Soon as its in mine is going off for rebuild then I'll swop back.

No luck in finding any used ones that were confirmed to be from a low mileage car. Seriously tempted to pull the top off and investigate mine once its off. Not exactly complex on the hydraulics end after all and the problem is almost certainly a jammed spool valve.

Hate being backed into doing the wrong thing but car has to be up'n running by Monday. Just another thing gone wrong over a crap week.

Clive

Oh bum. Its Britpart or bust!

Chasing round this morning and P38 steering boxes seem to be very thin on the ground. All I can find ex stock are Britpart pattern or used "think it works OK" quality from breakers. LR Direct have best price for Britpart £456 including tax but no seals or arm lock-washer. Seals & lock washer are another £44.00 from Britcar who seem to be the only people listing them for fast supply. £500 for a steering box I'm not sure I can trust.

Guess mine goes off for recon as soon as I've got it changed.

Not the best of weekends.

Clive

Unless the power assistance system is on the way out or the damper is silly stiff you won't notice any difference at the wheel. Force you feel at the wheel is set by the internal torsion bar in the box connecting the steering column and worm. The bar twists when you turn the steering to open the appropriate spool valve to provide hydraulic assistance. Spool valve opening is proportionate to torsion bar twist. For all practical purposes the power steering system keeps the force at the wheel constant. If the actual load on the other end is greater then the bar will twist a smidgin more which theoretically means a bit more turn on the steering wheel but good luck with detecting that.

Steering damper is provided to control movement when loads on the steering change suddenly. Like one wheel on nice dry pavement and one falling into loose sand. Limits the rate of movement whilst the torsion bar twist and internal damping in the hydraulic system sort themselves out. Its dynamic, rate of change damping more than static force that is important. Bigger tube and more oil in the Terrafirma version just means it can work longer and harder without getting so warm that damping goes to pot.

Might matter to Baja or Paris Dakar types. But, as usual with most fashionable performance upgrades, the gains are where normal people never go. So long as basic build quality is up to scratch can't see any downside.

Clive

OldShep
Thanks for the steer. Nice to have recommendations for known reliable suppliers.

Chris
Know the feeling, I gotta thin things down a bit too. Shift some old bike stuff so there is room for Rangie stuff.

If I go used probably see what the local P38 breaker over Crawley has first. E-Bay can be minefield but always a few to be found.

Britcar have refurbished exchange units by EAC which claim to be OEM, presumably the folk who do the factory ones for Land Rover, at £285 + VAT once you have reclaimed the surcharge. Looks to be as good a deal as any from a reliable supplier. But refurbs can be found for half that on E-Bay.

Clive

Chris

Great offer. Thanks.

Had another quick play this morning. Definitely no power assistance turning right. Turning left is as it should be so pretty much confirms steering box fault. So probably best to change it.

Choice seems to be used, recon, new pattern (um looks to be Britpart, so that will be a no then) or brand new at a price that which will make the credit card scream in agony.

Clive

Brian

Steering damper would be just too easy! Its fine. With the wheels off the ground steering moves both ways easily albeit perhaps marginally heavier and less smoothly going right.

Try to drive it and there is clearly no power assistance when turning to right. Just possible to muscle it round near to right lock in the space available on my drive. Swings back left smooth and easy just as it should.

Far as I can see its got to be either trapped air or spool valve not opening.

Maybe a full drain and oil change would help.

Clive

Ready for road test after all brake work and find the steering is very stiff when trying to turn right. Turning left is fine but going right wards feels like there is no power assistance. Is it simply air in the PAS system needing bleeding out or is it more serious.

Quickly lifted it on the jack and checked that everything turns fine both ways with the wheels off the ground. Sat front axle on stands and twirling back and forth with pump running in the hope of shifting any air. Feels slightly heavier going rightwards but hard to tell if thats meaningful. Opening bleed nipple on steering box gives an ooze of oil. Is this right or should it gush!

About the only cause I can think of its that I had the steering well to the right when removing the old drag link. Which was very stubborn and had to be hit to shift it. Not something I like doing but I wanted finish replacing all the steering swivels this year as everything was showing wear. Could be coincidence and steering about to go wrong I suppose.

Saturday shop by motorcycle now!

Clive