nigelbb wrote:
There are several Autogas LPG bulk tanks for sale on eBay but £7.5K for this 1,410 litre one is a bit too pricey.
That listing is from Birmingham Autogas, if you site your tank within a certain distance from them they'll supply you with gas at very reasonable price per litre too. The problem for me and most people is that the certain distance is within relatively short range of Birmingham... I contacted them ages ago.
Some forecourt style LPG vehicle refuelling pumps have a built in pressure regulator... so there are 2 pipes running from the tank to the pump, one is obviously the liquid feed pipe, the 2nd pipe is the return pipe from the regulator. Edit - LPG pump pressure regulator so plumbed between the output side of the pump and back to the tank.
I say this to prevent anyone with an existing bulk tank making the mistake of thinking they've found an easy way to plumb a forecourt pump to their tank, so buying one, only to realise there isn't an easy way to connect a return line. Maybe there is an easy way to connect a return line but I don't see how from looking at the diagrams linked to above.
Strictly speaking yes you should pay road duty and VAT on top if using gas as a road fuel... But i don't know of anyone who bought one of my pumps who does.
A couple of my pump buyers have bulk tanks at home and bought the pump for purpose of refuelling their vehicle from the bulk tank. I advised them they'd need a liquid take-off fitting to the bulk tank with an isolation valve on the tank itself to turn off the gas feed to the input line to the pump, but told them I wouldn't get involved with the bulk tank liquid take-off modification. Nevertheless they seemed to find getting the bulk tank liquid take-off modification fitted by a qualified bulk tank engineer no problem - Obviously the tank has to be empty before fitting the liquid take-off. The liquid take-off doesn't need to be fitted to the bottom of the bulk tank, it can be fitted to the top if a pipe from the take-off point runs internally to the bottom inside the tank.
I produce and sell pump setups that pump gas from red propane bottles into LPG converted vehicles tanks :-)
I sell the pumps for £375 + £8 shipping privately (away from Ebay that takes commision), or at £399 + £8 shipping through EBay.
To save some typing and posting pictures here I will include a link to my Ebay listing, but obviously if anyone reading this wants to buy a pump it would be better to contact me directly. https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/326295382117
I have 47kg (92.1 litre) red propane bottles delivered to home for £79.50 exchange from a local bottled gas company, this works out at 86.4p per litre. The pump is easy to use, runs from a 12v car battery and takes around 30minutes to pump the entire contents of the 92.1L bottle into my vehicle tank. No need for a separate 12v battery, just pop the bonnet and connect the power lead to the vehicle battery.
There are still forecourts local to me that sell LPG at a fairly reasonable price (92p at a local BP station) but I more often refuel at home using one of these pumps. Morrisons used to be my usual go-to forecourt but not since MFG increased the price to £1.299 per litre.
There are pros and cons to both filling at forecourts and filling at home from a bottle. I would prefer LPG to still be widely available at a low price from forecourts but it is very convenient filling at home. If you're miles from home it's a disadvantage that the cheapest place to refuel is at home but if you have decent range on LPG it becomes less of a disadvantage, while for some people/vehicles it would be possible to take a red bottle in the luggage area and refuel anywhere. The pump can also pump from bottle to bottle (may need a different output line 'end fitting' bought from me, or could use a bottle filling adapter instead)... So could pump from a large bottle into smaller bottles at home then take some smaller bottles in the vehicle luggage area to refuel from. On my own vehicle I fitted a 2nd LPG tank, if both LPG tanks are full I have 700 miles range on LPG and the original petrol tank still fitted gives another 350 miles range... I may yet remove the petrol tank and fit another LPG tank in its place but I already have no range anxiety with 700 miles range on LPG.
I imagine in the fairly distant future if EVs become the majority of vehicles on the road forecourts selling petrol and diesel will start to close too. But if I live long enough to see EVs start to take over I imagine it will still be legal to run a vehicle with a proper engine (especially if running on LPG) and I intend on still running a vehicle with a proper engine on LPG... Just refuel at home from a red bottle. LPG continues to be the cheapest fuel to run a vehicle on, no need to pay the price of a new vehicle (or suffer the depreciation).
Like Gilbert, I'd still run on LPG if there was no saving versus running on petrol, my oil stays clean far longer when running on LPG versus petrol.
When I was rebuilding my boat engine I read quite a lot on engine builder forums, a lot of people were saying that back in the days of carburettors they'd expect to see cylinder bore cross hatching worn smooth on high mileage engines but the same engines running fuel injection instead of carbs are likely to retain the cross hatching, they attribute this to the finer fuel atomisation of fuel injection being less likely to dilute the oil film on cylinder walls. LPG is a vapour before it enters the engine and won't dilute the oil film on cylinder walls, furthermore it burns cleanly and doesn't cause as much carbon or other contaminants build up in the oil.
Filling at home from a bottle I expect there'll always be a good saving running on LPG, its main use as a fuel is for home heating customers so its price has to stay competitive in that market or the gas supply companies will go bust, they might not care much about the increasingly niche market of LPG as a road fuel but these companies will want to stay competitive in the home heating market.
Wow! Congratulations to you both!
I haven't checked this forum for a few weeks, seems quite a lot has happened...
Great picture.
Gilbertd wrote:
Lpgc wrote:
If a starter motor is drawing more amps than usual (to dim lights etc), where is that power going (and why) if it isn't converted to magnetic power / torque to spin the engine?
It's converted to heat. A dodgy starter has more resistance (due to the additional resistance between brushes and commutator) so it gets very hot.
I would agree, but the extra resistance should mean it can't draw as many amps from the battery causing the lights to dim more than usual
A warm engine is easier to crank than a cold engine, so if it cranks easier when cold it points to something else starter motor / electrics related being negatively affected by warm temperatures.
If a starter motor is drawing more amps than usual (to dim lights etc), where is that power going (and why) if it isn't converted to magnetic power / torque to spin the engine?
If you're getting lean error codes and are not sure whether the fault is lambda sensor of MAF related but the engine generally seems to run OK, try reading lambda voltage while doing a few 'tip-ins' (quick blips of the throttle). If the lambda readings show a temporary rich mixture just after the tip-ins it points away from the lambda sensor being at fault. The tip-in test is possible because during such tip-in's the mixture is supposed to go richer than under normal engine running conditions, i.e. near full throttle is a special condition during which mixture is supposed to get richer than the lambda sensors can measure, the lambda sensors may max out at around 0.9v.
More likely 1 fault than 2 faults. If P1171 points to both cylinder banks lean mixture, and the lean mixture readings are due to lambda sensor issues, both lambda sensors would have failed. Or just 1 MAF sensor.
I'm not saying the fault is the MAF, I've seen plenty P38's with 2 failed lambda sensors but also plenty with failed MAF or other problems.
A misfire (due to many causes) can cause lambda sensors to give lean signal, lambda sensors measure oxygen in exhaust gas, a misfiring cylinder pumps air and fuel into the exhaust but the lambda sensor doesn't notice the fuel... unless it burns in the exhaust with the excess air before it reaches the lambda sensor. Lambda sensors need to be hot to work properly so have an inbuilt heater element, if t he heater doesn't work the sensor will give correct signal when it is hot enough (heated by the exhaust gasses) and lean signal when it is too cool to work properly.
Unless the fault is gearbox related it won't only happen in 4th gear, it's just that the fault generally occurs during the engine load conditions you apply in 4th gear. To the engine 2500rpm at 3/4 throttle is the same load regardless of what gear you're in (with a few exceptions such as if rpms are accelerating/decelerating). With this in mind, if an engine fault definitely only occurs in a certain gear, on some vehicles indeed the problem could be gearbox related. On some vehicles the transmission computer can tell the engine computer to decrease torque to aid smooth gear shifting or lessen the load on transmission clutches during the shift, particularly if the throttle isn't fly-by-wire such torque reduction is often done by momentarily retarding ignition timing.
I once had new PAS lines for a Merc ML made up by Pirtek, it cost much less than buying new lines from Ebay or a Merc dealer and I had them make the lines a couple of inches longer than the broken originals to make routing and re-connecting a bit easier.
Agreed with Gilbert.
In recent years I've converted hundreds of Nissan Elgrands, many owners get me to change the spark plugs while I'm at it. Changing the plugs I can get a view through the plug hole into the cylinder, when they come in the piston crowns are always black but after a while of running on LPG they're clean. I avoid running my car on petrol as much as possible, not only for the cost savings of running on LPG but also because if I only run on LPG the oil stays clean between changes.
I have gas delivered to home in 47kg bottles, prices vary but it costs me £79.50 for a 47kg (92 litre) bottle exchange with free delivery. I sell pumps that pump it out of a bottle into the car tank.
The only LPG wiring necessary to connect to original vehicle wiring are the petrol injector break wires and the ignition on wire. There are 16 LPG system petrol injector break wires, each of the 8 original petrol injector wires are cut and an injector break wire connects to each side of the cut. The ignition on wire is usually connected to the positive wire at one of the petrol injectors. There's no connection to TPS, there might be a connection to one or both of the front lambda sensor signal wires but (if so) this will just be a connection (the lambda wire won't be cut). Depending on which AC Stag ECU is fitted (and maybe which installer and how it is set up) there may be a wire connected to a coil pack. Then of course the LPG system needs a power supply so is usually connected directly to the battery. All the other LPG system wires are separate to original vehicle wiring.
Often the injector break wiring is connected close to the petrol injectors, especially on a Thor. On a Gems the injector break wiring might be near petrol injectors or might be near the petrol ECU since on Gems the ECU and it's harness are handy to access near the battery.
Wherever the petrol injector break wiring is connected it is easy to see which original wires were cut. For starters the original petrol injector wires that were cut are a different colour to each petrol injector, so you can match up and reconnect them on that basis. Secondly the 16 LPG system wires that are connected to petrol injector wiring are 8 different coloured pairs of wires, one of each pair is a solid colour, the other of the pair is the same colour with a black stripe, so even if petrol injector wires were all the same colour you could re-match and re-connect petrol injector wires on that basis.
No need to even fully disconnect the (red) ignition on wire, you could just cut that and isolate it, same with any wires connected to lambda sensors.
Why are you removing it @Strangerover?
Same thoughts as Bolt did occur to me but I forgot to mention the potential for a gearbox problem being the underlying problem.
I do think though, like Gilbert, that the problem is probably due to duff lambda sensors. I have seen a lot of P38s with duff lambda sensors usually with the owner and general garages the owner used the services of unaware.
Normally if a 0>1v lambda sensor fails it will output close to 0v, which for a 0>1v sensor implies lean mixture, but the error codes point to rich mixture while the symptoms point to lean mixture. If lambda sensors incorrectly read rich mixture it may have the effect of leaning the mixture off. Given the aforementioned (question to everyone) - What are the chances that someone spliced in 5>0v sensors instead of the 0>1v sensors? I know that in this company I have no need to mention that with the 5>0v sensors a 5v signal; points to lean and a 0v signal points to rich...So if a fitter had mixed up their P38 models and spliced in 5>0v sensors on a model that should use 0>1v sensors there would be constant rich running error codes and the fuel trims might be leaned off leading to reduced engine torque, the engine would still rev but the car would lack power and go up through the gears slowly.
I currently have @Jacckk 's P38 in the yard, the last time I saw this P38 was 10 years ago but he fitted a 4.6 to replace his 4.0 and the LPG fuelling was off after the engine change. Today I got it running much nicer on LPG than on petrol, probably due to some petrol injector issues (only petrol injectiors on 7 and 8 seem to be working great, others probably not working very well).
It would be wasteful (time and money) to replace components that are working OK, so first I would want to run some diagnostics to determine which if any components were broken.... But as said, it is likely changing lambda sensors or MAF would fix the problem.
Have you had any components changed on it recently?
How old are the lambda sensors?
Are they definitely the correct type lamba sensors (connected using he original vehicle lambda sensor connecting plugs) or has someone spliced in generic sensors or sensors from an older P38?
P0172 / P0175 point to system too rich cylinder banks 1 / 2
I'd expect the fault to be due to incorrect spec or failed lambda sensors, or a failed MAF.
P1000 Doesn't normally indicate a fault, ir only means drive cycle(s) haven't been completed so the OBD system hasn't had opportunity to detect certain types of faults. Some vehicles have P1000 every time you start them up, the code goes away if drive cycles are completed without other fault codes occuring.
Is this a P38?
Bolt wrote:
So, for 12 bucks, I have bought 30 (minimum quantity) of the correct size and formulation O rings
Hope you don't mind me going slightly off subject... Noticed a problem with my boat hydraulic trim/tilt system allowing the outdrive/leg to drop when it was supposed to be on full tilt for getting the boat out of the water onto the trailer. I'm rebuilding the engine on it and with the engine out noticed a leak from the joint between a hydraulic pipe and the hydraulic pump. I disconnected the hydraulic line and found a damaged O-ring, this O-ring is apparently only available as part of a complete hydraulic pump refurb kit but I managed to find a replacement sold separately that is supposedly compatible. I'm wondering if the O-ring I bought separately (specifically listed on Ebay as being suitable for the line to pump joint on a Volvo SX / OMC Cobra drive) is really compatible and/or as good as an Oring that would have been supplied as part of the full pump refurb kit. Before I bought this Oring I looked at a specialist Oring manufacturer website https://www.polymax.co.uk/o-rings/ which lists the pros and cons of different types of Oring materials for different applications/fluids/etc but it doesn't seem to say anything about what material is best suited to hydraulic pipe joints for a boat application (it does mention materials for car brake line applications). I know the dimensions of the Oring and bought (from an Ebay seller not from the Polymax manufacturer) one specifically listed as suitable for the exact joint(s) they need to seal but I don't know whether the Ebay Oring is OEM spec, just a cheap random spec Chinese made Oring, etc. There are 4 Orings I'd like to change and to change 2 of them the engine needs to be out for access, the engine is out at the moment so now is the time to change them but I'm not sure whether to trust those I've bought from Ebay.
Impressive mileage, also an impressive trip. I'd love a road trip like that.
Hello and welcome to the forum!
Anything in particular you want advice about
I'm not the best person to ask about Rangerovers but I might be able to help, I'm surprised others haven't seen your message and said hello yet.
Clean the injectors as discussed on LPGforum for sure.
I'd be interested to see if cleaning the reducer will cure the over pressure after solenoids open and before LPG injectors start bleeding pressure... But you might find it easier or prefer to just change the reducer.
If I calibrated the LPGTech system I'll have done it in 'standard mode' (as opposed to 'tech mode'), Standard Mode allows more control than Tech Mode (Tech mode is more for installers who try to get away with fit and forget and not do a proper job of calbration). You can adjust the pressure correction with LPG Tech, click Map, Correction, and find Gas Pressure Correction under the Others tab. Right click on a pressure and you can set a deviation from the standard pressure correction (deviation because your input figures are in addition to the underlying calculated pressure correction figures). The figures I mentioned above are absolute, to get to the absolute figures by entering deviations we have to enter figures of +16% at 1.8 bar and +43% at 2.5 bar, the scale only goes up to 2.5bar. You can also set a minimum injector pulse length in Settings, click on the 3 dots beside Injector Type, change Minimum Gas Injector Time to Manual and set a figure such as 2.3ms.
If you want you could email me your setup file (I'll have a copy but would take time to find it as it'll be on an old hard drive from an old Laptop), I'll modify it and email it back to you. It might help but I doubt it will cure the problems in itself.
It's probably due to a combination of problems...
We've been talking about dirty LPG recently, contains dissolved oil ('heavy ends') which comes out of the LPG during evaporation inside the reducer, flows along with gas vapour to injectors, when cold turns into a sticky tar like substance that can prevent or slow the speed of injectors opening https://lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?t=19640
The reducer could be another problem. Maybe also due to heavy ends, maybe not... I've known quite a few Antarctic reducers have the problem of slightly sticking open gas inlet which sees pressure rise to 3 bar when there is no gas being drawn off (when the gas inlet port should be closed). The gas inlet port could be sticking open due to heavy ends. Or if you haven't monitored the gas pressure reading before the gas injectors start firing for a while, maybe it's been 3 bar before the injectors for a long time but still switched to gas OK until recently in which case we couldn't attribute all your recent problems just to the high gas pressure (although it would never help).
Don't know what ECU you're using but another problem can be that if you have set a 1.3 bar reference pressure we'd expect the ECU's default (none adjustable on some ECUs) pressure correction to compensate Ginj (gas injector pulse length) by around negative 50% if the pressure reading is 3bar, the default ECU settings are based on physics but don't take into account that the higher pressure will also have the effect of slowing the speed of injectors opening, so at such a high pressure (that will make a big difference to speed of injectors opening) the negative 50% is vastly excessive and has the effect of leaning the mixture due to too short Ginj. If the over-pressure situation is momentary (say the pressure decreases rapidly as soon as injectors start opening) it can be better to dial in a positive (obviously as opposed to negative but I mention it to highlight the point) pressure compensation for pressure readings above the usual range that will be seen during normal engine operation to prevent the over-pressure from leaning the mixture and also to give the injectors a longer pulse to give them better chance of opening and bleeding some of that pressure when they are first pulsed during changeover.. If possible I'd go with the standard pressure corrections up to 1.8 bar, then a zero correction to 2bar, then a positive correction up to around +15% at 3bar. Heh, my +15% correction for +3bar will be around a 65% longer pulse than the ECU would give with standard pressure correction. At cold changeover there'll also be some negative Ginj correction because besides pressure cold gas is denser than hot gas. That said, some ECU's also have a default minimum injector pulse length for the type of injectors you've selected in software (and some others allow a minimum pulse length to be defined by the installer). What ECU are you using?
Could be one I converted, I don't remember whether I did yours or not lol.
Devon Police sent me a couple of pics of myself driving my van with caravan on tow towards Cornwall back in August a few weeks ago, with a 'identify the driver' notice for not wearing a seatbelt. Pics taken from a few different angles, one showing my car and caravan from almost front on, one a down shot through the windscreen. I didn't know they had cameras that flag people not wearing seatbelts.