The negatives of long pipe lengths are not nearly as pronounced on a group injected engine as on a sequential injected engine (because group injection fires injectors twice as often, and in advance of inlet valves opening), so pipe lengths associates with fitting 2 x rails of 4 injectors on group injection Gems engines are not as critical as on sequential Bosch engines. When I convert a group injected Gems I mount a rail of 4 (down-flow) injectors to the UK driver side middle plenum allen bolt and the other rail to the passenger side front plenum allen bolt (throttle body prevents mounting rail in the middle on this side). Don't worry about keeping all pipes same length, the only 2 pipes that will be a bit on the long side anyway are those that run to the rear 2 cylinders on the passenger side, makes negligible difference on Gems particularly if you use 4mm ID pipe (low internal pipe volume compared to wider diameter pipes). The bosch/sequential is a different story, I mount side outlet injectors atop the bananas on these but remove metal from between the banana runners to allow pipes to fit through to the correct place (for outlets) in the lower part of the manifold beside petrol injectors.
Simon
I don't want to speak out of turn, especially not knowing the nature of the problem, but I've known P38s come up with gearbox warnings and shift gear incorrectly when there's been a problem with the throttle position sensor, a problem with the TPS could also cause the engine to cut out...
I appreciate people and firms that know their stuff (including Gilbert, wouldn't want this to read otherwise) and I've just had a look at the Ashcroft website. I have gearbox problems of my own on another type of vehicle, wondered if they might work on my type, they don't but I'm still impressed and found their site interesting.
Simon
Since you're not after the door or locks and the door can't be sold by the breakers until it is removed and they cannot unlock it either, couldn't you explain the situation to the breakers and get them to go in with an angle grinder?
Simon
Not useful but on the same subject - One of the easiest cars ever to get into without a key was the last shape Vauxhall Senator. Just pull up the plastic strip that runs the width across the outside of the door at the bottom of the window (thing with the outer felt window seal attached) to reveal the door lock and latch levers! Pull on either of those (can even get your finger in if not too chubby) and the door will open.. No damage, just slot the plastic trim back in place. I remember reading about Senators being unbelievably easy to get into in a newspaper, obviously the paper didn't explain how or why they were easy to get into, I found out a few years later when I bought my first Senator and had some work to do inside the door. Major design issue!
I think when I looked into it, like you said, I found cheap gear for the P38, equipment for the Disco started at about £1k.. I let 'Simons Services' use their tool, same name as myself, unrelated except I do their LPG work!
Thanks Gilbert, Yes I've replied on the Etagas thread.
Cheers.
Good going with the mates P38 Gilbert. Out of curiosity (no need at the moment), does anyone have the scan tool for setting / initialising suspension on P38s and Disco's? I once changed bags and height sensors on a Disco but then had to take it to a local Landrover specialist (whom I do all the LPG work for) for them to do the setting up with the tool. Did a bit of research before going there, apparently such tool for P38s is cheap and easily available (Ebay etc) but the different tool for a Disco is a lot more expensive to the extent wouldn't buy one unless using it regularly for paying customers?
Simon
Hmm, well without a stamp the jury is still out on whether this is a preN or N system. There is yet another way to tell... If there is a connection to TPS (likely a blue and yellow wire) it will be a preN system.
I've converted a few P38's myself years ago using a sandwich plate.. but I made up heat shields for the injectors, fitted a reducer that is more on top of the job for the V8, used another gasket with the sandwich plate and mapped it properly! ;-) With manifold nozzles in the correct place near petrol injectors, short pipes will run to injectors sat at either side of the engine, OK except this can mean they're above exhaust manifolds so pick up both infrared and convection heat and with rails widely apart at each side of the engine it isn't a complete no-brainer keeping injector rail feed pipe lengths to the reducer both the same length (not a biggie really!).
It is possible to convert these engines in the same way without even using a sandwich plate, can simply machine the ribs on the rocker covers and the underside of the upper manifold a bit to make room for 5mm internal diameter pipes to run to injectors at either side of the engine. 4mm pipe will fit even without the machining but would mean using different injectors (Matrix have 6mm outlets, 6mm or 5mm pipe will fit but 4mm won't). I've converted some P38s with both of these methods (the machining / the 4mm pipe) too.
These days I machine metal from between the finger spans of the banana manifold, so injectors can sit atop the engine with pipes running to nozzles in the manifold in the correct place through the machined holes in the upper manifold, doing away with the need for heat shields and keeping pipe lengths (including between reducer and each injector rail) all similar..
Simon
That's an AEB025 pressure sensor, so is the later (and latest) type. Difficult to see the attaching wiring, if the wiring doesn't look tampered with and there is no adaptor (to adapt from old type AEB013 connector on old type wiring loom to AEB025 type connector, i.e. a short bit of wire with a plug on each end) then I would suspect you have an N type ECU (so is slave / much more common type similar to even the latest type systems). If that's the case then, as explained above, the V6 software is very likely to work with it. Even systems fitted 11 years ago are unlikely to be pre-N type. One way to confirm would be to check your petrol fuel trims while running on gas - if fuel trims (when running on gas) don't drift to one extreme or the other then it will almost certainly be N type, if your fuel trims do drift to one extreme (rich or lean) when running on gas then this doesn't prove that you have pre-N type because this could also be explained by there being a problem with your LPG system or with how it is calibrated. Yet another way to check is by looking on the back of the LPG ECU, if it is N type it will be stamped AEB2568, I suspect yours will have a B or C suffix at the end of that board code too (still implying N type).
Simon
The BMW 4.4 engine has a couple of wide diameter breather pipes that run across the top of the back of the engine. It seems common for these to perish, some people put the perishing down to the material being incompatible with ethanol that is in modern day petrol, others put perishing down to material not being compatible with oil/HC's that inevitably make there way into breather pipes. At the time of design there probably wasn't ethanol in petrol, I tend to agree with the ethanol idea because before ethanol was in petrol we LPG installers could use LPG pipe for petrol but modern petrol causes LPG pipe to similarly perish, similarly the BMW4.4 breather pipes didn't seem to have a problem before ethanol. Since the pipes feed into the back end of the inlet manifold, leaks in them amount to a vacuum leak. I've changed them on a number of L322's that I've converted to LPG - even if there isn't a leak to start with, moving perished pipes around during other work can cause them to break up. By perishing I mean the pipes tend to become gummy, almost like they're melting, become more flexible and easily tearable. There comes a point in the process where in a cross section of pipe it would be difficult to make out where the pipe starts and the gum/oil ends. The pipes are fairly easy for a home mechanic to change and, as I remember, cost a total of around £35 from BMW dealers who seem quite used to supplying these specific pipes (common problem).
Swapping tranny fluid is something I do early on all cars I buy, particularly in autos if it doesn't look or feel like I think it should, I'll also swap coolant, even brake fluid if that looks old. But there is the possibility of causing an old box to whine or affect the shift by swapping in new fluids even of the correct spec. And getting correct spec can involve a bit of research, especially on boxes that were supposedly filled for life.
Simon
Sometimes when plugs have been cut off it's because they corroded, so someone might cut the plug off to just screw wires together.
Agreed with Gilbert it could be a pre-N system, there is no N designation on the ECU sticker... but if it is pre-N it will be a rare example. Most pre-N systems have pressure sensor built into the ECU (so pipes attached directly to the ECU), most of the rest will have (at least originally) been fitted with the (external) AEB013 pressure sensor, even early N systems used the AEB013 sensor. Most pre-N internal and AEB013 external sensors will have failed by now, not easy to swap ECU internal pressure sensors but easy enough to swap an AEB013 for the later AEB025 type that is still used today (means swapping connecting plugs and changing settings in software though). Most pre N systems used ECUs with only 4 injector driving channels, for vehicles with more than 4 cylinders an external injector driver was (supposedly) added to the system (not always fitted, some installers bodged by just wiring 2 injectors in parallel to one driver channel).
Though V6 software will work on most N systems, some early N systems need software within a certain version range.
Pre N system ECU's work in a very different way to N systems, need different software altogether and are calibrated very differently. N type work as a slave to the petrol system, read petrol injector pulse duration and add fiddle factors as per user mapping to arrive at gas injector duration, so gas injector duration is calculated based on input from the petrol system. Pre N type work standalone, output specific gas injector pulse duration described by the installer's map which is based on engine rpm and engine vacuum, automatic closed loop operation is afforded by connection to lambda input (necessity).
Simon
Don't splash around the LPG ECU or pressure sensor mate!
Simon
Assuming this is a Zavoli pulsed injection system...
There are a few basic checks you can do;
Pull the vacuum pipe off the reducer while it's running on LPG, no gas should come out of this port on the reducer.
Use a bit of pipe in ear as a stethoscope to listen to each injector. They should all sound similar, any that are much louder than others or making a fairly pronounced metallic noise are probably shot, although they could be shot even if quiet! Being a Zavoli system it will either have Zavoli's own injectors (either individual injectors or mounted on a rail with individual units easy to identify) or Matrix injectors (more of a square block, individual workings not easy to identify except for seeing gas outlets). Matrix are by far the better type in terms of both longevity and performance, they may further be identified by the single big square electrical connector block,
If you have a suitable scanner, check fuel trims are good and similar on either fuel. And/or check lambda readings under various engine operation conditions.
At 11 years old and many miles might expect even Matrix injectors to be a bit worn.
Even if you had the interface for the LPG system, diagnostics capabilities via the old Zavoli ECU will be limited, it is unlikely to have capabilities of more recent LPG ECU's such as ability to switch individual cylinders between LPG and petrol. Though a cable would allow you to adjust calibration of the system of course. For more advanced checks on parts such as injectors a more recent ECU could be temporarily swapped in.
Hope that helps.
Simon
Hehe, well, could get anoraky and deeper into it I suppose but I'll refrain! As a kid I made a lead acid battery, flashing from the roof of a building that was to be knocked down and talked grandma into buying some sulphuric acid from a hardware store (I kid you not!) and it worked, plenty holes in my bedroom carpet and stuff though. Dad once accused me of smoking when he saw my yellow fingers but was fine with the fact the yellow stuff was result of purposefully blowing up a big capacitor in a biscuit tin using AC power.
Simon
I can agree, although would regard chemical drain also as quiescent drain which will be related to battery size..
I wonder how the 20mA vehicle electrical drain compares to the chemical drain - Suppose we left a 100AmpHr battery stood in the garage without a charge... 8760 hours in a year but how much of that 100AmpHr capacity would remain after a year.. If it was down to 50% capacity it would have lost 50AmpHrs and chemical drain would have been nearly 6mA - would seem this would have to be a pretty decent battery.
Down by 50AmpHrs after 3 months then chemical drain would have been around 12mA... How much of a battery's charge could we expect to remain after a year? Probably a bit difficult to apply real world figures, especially if battery isn't as new, but chemical drain would seem enough to affect the charging figures aimed for, especially as solar panel won't be charging at night - E.g. with 20ma vehicle drain, 10ma chemical drain, solar panel only charging at night, battery charge efficiency never 100%, even 40ma from panel during the day might not be enough for the battery to have as much charge on return as it had when it was left.
Simon
Supposedly had a regulator with a couple of very big panels on the roof of my dad's motorhome but still cooked the batteries. Little panel probably OK without a regulator but could check and adjust charging current - With battery fully charged, connect panel in broad sunlight and check charge current, if too high wire some resistance in series such as e.g. a brake bulb? Quiescent drain will depend on the size of the battery?
Simon
I didn't do it! Used to be able to talk to Italians more than anywhere else, language problem, a lot of them used echo mic's and beam aerials, but had a few chats with Yanks / Canadians. Don't know about the legalities these days. Cybernet boards could usually be adjusted up to 12w, Unidem boards a bit more, depending on frequency you were on and how well you'd got the ferrite rods in inductors on the boards adjusted. Thing about the big Yank CBs was that despite differences in external design and functions there were only really a handful of boards they were all based on, including the big 'homebase rigs'. Not much in the burner except a few power trannies but even a fairly low power one will do 100w. I know a bloke who got into UHF radio, talks to people all over the world he reckons... via relay stations. 'So just like a mobile phone / internet then?' I said. 'Why don't you just ask their phone number'...
TV detector van Gilbert? Hehe ribbing! I know the gist of what you do, not exactly what that entails.
You know I used to be a DJ... At one time I had thoughts of setting up a pirate radio station haha!
Simon
With a cylinder mounted transversely pickup point won't be an issue (and yours will be transverse), so would likely just need a pressure or software adjustment to prevent the cutting back to petrol.
Not much fun in just listening?
Simon
Morat,
As a kid I used to have a few hobbies, computers, electronics, CB, engines & cars, shooting, home brew.. and I intermingled some of them such as passing through the quarry/tip when going shooting to see if any electronic stuff had been dumped that I might take home to fix or just take bits off for use in some project later. I made particular use of the BBC computer's analogue input and 'user port' digital output and had a mini solar panel (from a 300 in 1 kids electronics set) outside in a jam jar to meter light level and relay running off the user port to switch mains lighting in my bedroom. Then, noting that the channel selector on a CB just made various connections on the PLL chip, I replaced a CB channel selector knob with mini relays controlled by the BBC's user port output so I could use the computer to switch channels. With an analogue connection from the signal meter and another little program the computer could go through the channels looking for a strong signal, thus acting like a scanner.
Dad had ship to shore and CB radios on his boat and in his campervan (and car), before mobile phones you could make phone calls on STS radio but expensive. On one occasion we were parked on top of cliffs in Wales, made an expensive phone call to grandma and after the call Anglesey Radio queried the strong signal and their radio direction equipment pointing to the 'boat' being on land... illegal hehe.
Is this gas pickup at the rear or front end of the tank? Tank in spare wheel well or cylinder in boot etc? BRC installs usually have 4 hole tanks but in case tank is in wheel well it may have a 0degree single hole tank with valve pointing semi forward at 10/11 O'clock (because on that model the petrol tank has metal bracket protection that makes it difficult to fit valve through side of wheel well in other locations). Or may just be that change back to petrol pressure is set too high or reducer pressure set too low. The Jeep 4L is a low demand engine in terms of LPG conversion, spuds aren't in a great position but that might not be having the biggest negative impact. With some LPG systems it's necessary to 'advance the injection sequence' to prevent harsh gear changes and hesitation on acceleration, you can do that in software with some systems or can achieve the same by swapping gas injector plug connections.
Would maybe be a bit surprising if the BRC installer didn't just upload a standard map for the 4L Jeep.
Simon
Shep, Yes that's it, everything fitted, job done, running very nicely on gas.
Simon