I've had maybe most versions of AEB software work in 64bit, sometimes works properly, sometimes works with issues as described above, sometimes doesn't work. I wouldn't by default restart my laptop in 32bit to run what might be a problem combination of software and OS but have had to do so on many occasions. The 3/4 cylinder scenario reads like a case of worked with issues.
Won't break anything, will pick a few OBD codes up though! Yes you're looking for 12v on that wire as it enters the LPG ECU. You could run the test in reverse, i.e. temporarily cut the wire and apply 12v to the LPG ECU side of the cut, LPG system should wake up and the switch should light for a short time.
I only ever used piggy back looms on a couple of my conversions, they hardly make for a neat install but that aside, the occasional P38 has one injector wired with opposite polarity to the other injectors... not a problem normally but if you use a piggy back loom this means the LPG ECU breaks the positive connection to the effected injector rather than the negative. None of this is relevant to your problems but where it applies - with an older AEB ECU it can lead to the system switching OK to LPG but preventing you from switching back to petrol again, with a newer AEB ECU (that has it's own OBD) it leads to the LPG ECU seeing the lack of injector pulse as an error but you can get around this by disabling LPG OBD error reporting (which also disables the switch back to petrol response), with an even newer AEB ECU that is truly sequential it leads to the related LPG injector not pulsing even if the Hemi tickbox is ticked.
Simon
Richard might correct me on this but would think a 99 Thor might have a 5-0v sensor? Though OBD sometimes recompiles this to reflect 0-1v, but then on 99 year would expect most OBD2 readers to show 99% slow trims anyway...
Can we confirm this is a Prins sequential system, not just a Prins single point closed loop system....? The latter wasn't a patch on R90 and AEB based single point closed loop systems...
As memory serves (and I've used this disclaimer too often recently!) the most OBD2 compatible Rover V8 equipped vehicles I've seen have been post 2000 Disco's with EGR, these do show trims correctly over OBD2 in the usual +-25% range.
Simon
Hypothetically speaking, or speaking from experience though Marty... I'm not guessing, recent practical experience, and I'm not saying it has to be XP to be right... I wish I had taken some screen shots of the weird behaviour of some software, in some circumstances, in 64bit though. Stuff/apparent settings I've seen must have been dropped under development, never seen in any properly working AEB software. I have touched on this topic on LPG forum before and even argued the toss with Tinleytech about it.
Lighter note - Would have thought AEB software writers would have learned how to spell the word 'High' by now.. In every version of software since I've been installing, which goes back to before the B suffix ECUs came out, have spelled 'Higth' hehe!
Simon
Hehe, that's what I thought you meant (without seeing other thread), but then I thought... no wouldn't make that mistake ;-)
Win7 32 bit is a good bet on newer machines, most drivers are usually available (for the laptop itself) for modern laptops for win7. On this laptop I have Win10 64bit, Win7 32bit and XP 32bit.... Never managed to get drivers for XP but no probs for Win7.
Simon
The B suffix ECUs aren't new enough to show individual injector pulse duration in the diagnostics screen.The point I made earlier on these ECUs reading only front cylinder petrol duration applies (nod to one of Orangebean's points above) and perhaps applies even more so than on even slightly later boards, because it also probably isn't possible to switch individual cylinders back to petrol.
On only reading petrol injection from 2 cylinders, no... Because this isn't in agreement with the above / even on the latest ECUs you can set number of cylinders to whatever you want (will just return an error if it doesn't see all petrol injector pulses in this case, unless you set Hemi mode which should really read 'engine is capable of cylinder deactivation'), and also because you should be able to set number of cylinders to whatever you want without even running the engine / without even connecting any wiring except for providing it with main power.
I reckon the reason you only got option for 3/4 cylinders was due to running in 64 bit Windows... Again as said before, the only AEB software that seems totally happy in 64bit are some of the V6 versions and not all of those, this occurrence is far from the strangest I've seen!
What versions of software connected before?
What's this about plug leads?
Simon
Thanks for the info on Dropbox, I realise I was lazy to ask and am getting a bit too much out of touch with computers/IT/internet considering how much I used to be involved with them.
How it should work - Unless the switch lights up the ECU might not talk to the laptop anyway, but if the switch has been lit in the last several minutes it will, or if it has just had main power feeds connected it will. But unless there is 12v on the red/white, while you might be able to connect you won't see any readings such as temperatures/pressures etc.
As memory serves, at least in case of OMVL (and would imagine the same will apply to other AEB systems) there were mostly little changes between most 4.X software, except for pre and post v4.7, where 4.7 was necessary to connect to later versions of one of the suffixes. I'm sure a chat with a tech support guy/ex tech support guy such as Tinleytech/Dai Brace (classicswede on Lpgforum) would clear up what version should work with what suffix, because they will have been used to answering many questions on this specific point.. memory should serve them better on it..
Still, will be surprised if you can't connect using a version of software you already have.
Simon
Head out for a meal? Part timer! I know of one well known LPG installer who was apparently working on a customers car in the adjoining garage while his wife was giving birth in the house (same customer told me)! They are, however, maybe not too surprisingly split up now, and he is no longer an installer. Enjoy your meal mate ;-)
Incidentally, I'm not that used to using Dropbox... Can you browse through files and download other stuff too (not that I have any concerns!)?
Simon
Understood Gilbert, yes pinouts will be same if Vogel is name of a firm that fit AEB, only difference may be later versions have the additional OBD wiring that early versions won't have. Better not confuse matters by mentioning there is also an LPG system called Vogel hehe! But it's true..
I have a fair bit more, mostly oddball stuff, AFC, BRC and Prins, but you do have a good set there Gilbert. Used to be the case that if you bought the full cable adaptors package from WTV you got loads of software with it, a bit more still if you bought the USB version with the couple of extra cable adaptors, but still far from a concise set.
Over Xmas a guy came from Newcastle for me to take a look at his Elgrand recently converted by Autogas2000 with a Lovato system which was running like a pile of s**te. I was surprised not to be able to connect to his system with any version of Lovato software I had, I found out on the day AG2K re-opened that Lovato ECUs changed in May2016 and only post May2016 software will talk to the latest Lovato ECU. Still gave the guy some pointers on what was wrong, such as the 2foot long injector pipes(!), low pressure and system set to switch back to petrol unknown to the driver at idle causing surging as soon as you touch the throttle, but that's a different story. AG2K sent me the software via Dropbox, which I hadn't used for some time, but on using it again I decided to upload all my LPG software to Dropbox. Didn't manage it because my Dropbox was full before half software was uploaded - But I just checked, V3.0 and V4.6 Zavoli software has fully uploaded... I would think one of these versions will work if V6 doesn't, all software is more backwards compatible than forward compatible and V6 is usually the most compatible of the lot. Would expect V6 to work on anything V5 will, but earlier versions can be necessary for early ECU's like B suffix. Links to V3 and V4.6 in Dropbox below, though it looks like you already have V4.6 and 6? Looks like I don't have V5 Zavoli on this laptop either, if I've got it or ever had it at all, but I've never not been able to connect to a Zavoli system using one of the other software versions.
These are only about 8mb each, could email them if you don't have dropbox.
Try using a laptop running 32bit Windows, even early versions of V6 software don't like 64bit and you can get some very unusual results including options usually never seen and settings such as CNG/LPG reading opposite to how you set them, if you can manage to connect at all..
Simon
Orangebean wrote:
Mine's the 2568B Tony, but I imagine the pinouts are the same if the Vogels is a clone....
Ferryman wrote:
Is the pinout of the AEB 2568D 50-pin socket the same as installed by Vogels? I do have a hardwaremanual with pinout if you wish.
Tony.
If reference is to Vogas it's a completely different ECU, different pinout. I will have a pinout somewhere but it'll be one I made myself and it's finding it... Might as well do as Gilbert suggested though and pull the cover off the back of the ECU plug, there are earth connections between wires in there that can corode. As long as ECU gets battery live and earth and battery live on red/white the switch should light momentarily anyway, regardless of rpm signal, petrol injector signals, etc etc.
You haven't just swapped the two black plugs over that carry the petrol injector signals to the LPG ECU have you...
I can send versions of Zavoli software.
Simon.
No expert on plugs or chemistry but can say what I've noticed, my point of view and what the wider consensus of opinion seems to be.
If you're not sure what make of plugs to fit on any given vehicle, the NGK equivalent to whatever is standard is generally a good bet, not really relevant if NGK is standard.
Single pronged plugs are usually the best bet on LPG, unless standard plug has more prongs. General take on this seems to be that the extra prongs shield the mixture from the spark.
A lot of modern vehicles use platinum plugs as standard, platinum is supposedly consumed during the burn process of LPG because it acts as a catalyst (in the LPG burn process). While I'm sure iridium will last longer than platinum (it's a harder metal), I don't see any problems with platinum plugs in LPG engines, though they do wear out a bit quicker than running on petrol. At school I was taught something that acts as a catalyst aids a process without being consumed itself... and there is platinum in catalytic converters anyway.
LPG needs a hotter ignition source than petrol but I would think any electrical spark should be hot enough, so I don't tend to go with theories that refer just to spark temperature. Where coil voltage is marginal for making a spark jump across a plug gap, a spark may be much less likely to form running on LPG which is a dry fuel compared to running on petrol, so closing the gap is likely to help make for a good consistent spark. For any given condition in an engine cylinder, coil voltage needs to rise to the point at which a spark will jump the gap, so closing gap can also slightly advance ignition timing, I would think a negligible effect. No harm on most engines from using a slightly narrower gap than standard, gap will increase as the plug wears anyway (used to be common to gap points just a bit narrow knowing that soon gap would be to spec). Probably no big gains to be made from different plug types and gaps, as long as there are no misfires.
Used to be fairly common to have to close plug gaps, these days seems much less common, probably due to the vehicles we convert becoming later year models with stronger coils but never had misfire problems with P38s except in cases of worn ignition system components. If I had a P38 I'd fit the NGK's and gap them down a bit.
Having said all the above, I recently did a favour for a mate, changed the plugs on his petrol only Mondeo ST220 with Duratec V6 just for the cost of the bits. He'd had the plugs changed 6 months back and gave me the impression it had run OK since then until recently, so I had to wonder if the garage had changed the 3 rear cylinder bank plugs which is a manifold off job (front bank easy access without manifold off). I drove it in high gear at low speeds high loads to make it misfire and bring on the flashing MIL light, then OBD pointed to misfire cylinder 3, which is the right side rear plug. Getting the plugs out I noticed that 5 were new NGKs but the one with the misfire was an old original type Motorcraft plug. I changed them all for new NGKs, same spec as the 5 NGKs that came out, NGKs supposedly the equivalent to the Ford spec plug. It seemed fairly obvious that I'd found the problem (the plug that hadn't been changed) and I nearly didn't even bother testing it, but I did test it and it still misfired! Then my mate told me he'd had no problems with the car until having the plugs changed last time, and he'd been back to the garage about the misfire twice but they gave up when they found no OBD codes. Now I re-gapped all the plugs (closing) to spec (not pre-gapped to suit the Mondeo) and fitted new leads (his idea). The car now drives well under nearly all conditions but I could still force an occasional misfire at very low rpm near full throttle (few people would drive like that normally), and I reckon this will be due to the NGK plugs not being as good in this engine as the Ford recommended plugs, putting the Mondeo V6 in the same bracket as the Vauxhall engines Gilbert mentioned... but I only learned this while messing with plugs on this car, and since I have converted loads of the same engine in other V6 Mondeos and V6 Jags without having to even consider plugs, can read into this that standard plugs are the best bet on this engine on either fuel and NGK equivalents problematic even on petrol (on this engine).
Simon
Sequential system reducers can be mounted in any orientation, though there may in theory be slight advantages for longevity if they are installed in a certain orientation, would depend on reducer type and where inside it heavy ends are likely to build up. But since any slight advantage here would be completely overshadowed by the negative effect on reducer longevity of allowing the reducer to become a block of ice, it is better on vehicles with high risk of airlocks to mount the reducer in orientation that will best prevent airlocks.
I use loads of different types of filters on new installs, the handiest types are usually the smaller types, if I get too many of the big types in stock I'll fit them on vehicles I'm converting that have loads of space! The big type probably contains a gauzy type filter, reckon the small paper type do the best job of filtering but will need changing more often. Probably no advantage to being anorak about type of any filter, biggest job they do is prevent big bits of crispy heavy ends clogging injectors (vapour) or bits of foreign stuff from clogging reducer (liquid).
A new engine wouldn't put me off running it on LPG, but I'd be 100% the LPG system was working properly.
What to do with a new engine with a new cam... bottom ends like to be run in gently at first, cams are often better run in at high rpm. But nobody is going to fit an old cam in a new engine and swap the cam for a new one when then bottom end is run in, not in a pushrod engine anyway...
Simon
Don't quite follow, Marty. If you want to keep the back of the engine clear of LPG bits in order to allow better access to coil packs, splitting LPG pipe at the back of the engine (presumably to run pipes to Hana rails mounted under the manifold with gas pipes feeding to beneath the manifold from the rear) might not be a great way to go?
Given the limited options for injectors available with a Zavoli ECU would go with the Matrix setting.
No need for the balance pipe and won't make any difference.
Simon
They are that interchangeable but it is unlikely you'd see any difference updating to a more recent ECU and in some cases swapping to a more recent ECU can even prove a negative move.
200Gb worth of music on the hard drive in this laptop, backed up from another laptop from when I used to be a DJ. And this doesn't include the hundreds of CDs full of MP3s (maybe 100 tunes per CD) that I never put on a hard drive!
Simon
Yes it's an AEB2568B, which is an 'N' system, later type, the B suffix means it's 2nd generation N system (like I implied above!), it is the sequential slave type.
This is for intents and purposes fully interchangeable with even the most recent AEB2568 systems that are still made today.
If V6 software doesn't work, an earlier version such as v4.x or v3.x should. V5 software usually works with C/D suffix boards. As memory serves, B added sequential changeover, C added more advanced on board diagnostics, D is around when they became truly sequential and added connectivity to vehicle OBD2 to allow the LPG ECU to read petrol fuel trims.
Although it is termed sequential, on a B suffix it probably only reads petrol injector pulse duration from the front cylinder in each bank and bases gas pulse duration for all cylinders on the bank on only this reading, in which case it doesn't match the modern definition of truly sequential (wait for petrol pulse on each cylinder before beginning LPG injection pulse on that cylinder), but this isn't an issue on a P38.
Simon
I've heard that parking near certain types of transmission towers can lead to battery drain on P38s and on other vehicles...?
Hehe, I think Gilbert meant to link to this (http://www.rodsnsods.co.uk/forum/garage/medusa-206057)
and maybe this too (http://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=33&t=13792&hilit=medusa)
MJFX singular injectors, perhaps even the larger MJ singular injectors, will fit below the manifold even without a spacer... but in my view there is neat while practical (in terms of future servicing etc) and then there is being slightly OTT neat (dismantling needed to access bits like filters etc, take the top off the engine to get to injectors..). It would take about equal time to fit injectors under the manifold as it does to fit them on top. Some engines might be considered a work of art by some people, other engines probably not... I don't think LPG components installed out of sight in the engine bay of a P38 outweighs positives of easy servicing, I don't think there is a technical advantage in fitting injectors under the manifold on a Rover V8.. If I thought there was a combination of neatness and technical advantage I would do it that way, otherwise the accessibility point wins out.
I believe manifold spacers for these engines are available off the shelf anyway? A sometimes slightly negative point of manifold spacers is that they add volume to the intake manifold, which on some engines (those that use TPS and AFM's rather than a MAP sensor as part of load input to the petrol ECU) will mean acceleration fuelling enrichment will then occur slightly ahead of ECU designer anticipated actual air flow increase past the inlet valves. For sure a negligible effect with a short spacer but one which could offset any negligible benefit from shortening LPG injector to manifold pipe lengths.
Seen a bit of rubbing on sound deadening material with injectors mounted on top, seems to be much worse if sound deadening material sags where it shouldn't.. but while we're talking about neatness we wouldn't want sound deadening material to sag either.
Easy to tell if an engine runs group or sequential injection in LPG software, some systems actually spell out what type of injection the engine runs, or another way to tell is by petrol injector duration - a normally aspirated group engine will idle at around 2ms and full load will be at around 8ms, these are half the usual figures for a sequential engine. Got me thinking now whether I have seen group injection on Gems P38s, I have seen sequential Gems, previous to your post I would have been more certain I'd seen group injection Gems on P38s too, still tend to think I have. As said above it's easy to tell if an individual vehicle runs sequential or group anyway. Most Rover V8's running sequential run with about 4ms pinj duration at idle with warmed engine at just over 0.4bar manifold pressure.
Edit - Last week I had a customer here with a P38, not one of my conversions but one that I repaired a couple of years ago (fitted new injectors on). As usual, the original installer had fitted the injectors atop the manifold without making holes for injector pipes to reach to the correct place in the lower manifold (so injectors fired gas into the upper manifold, several inches from the ideal place). Anyway, on this occasion the car came in because it was running very poorly on gas "It always ran beautiful since you fixed it but recently it went bad all of a sudden while I was driving". Turned out the ECU (AFC, which is really just a rebadged KME Diego) was driving a couple of injectors improperly (all peak current, no hold current). This had caused one of the injector coils to melt - easy to replace the injector coil but would have involved taking the upper manifold off if injectors were fitted under the manifold. Effected a temporary cure while it was here just by fitting another injector coil but warned the owner not to run on gas or at least to keep his eye on the 2 effected coils if he did run on gas (don't want it catching fire) before he returns for the ECU replacement (got a few of the more recent KME Nevo's in stock, Diego are being phased out but I'll get hold of one to make for most cost effective repair). A temporary repair made simple by easy access to components. Should he (unwisely) drive on gas in the meantime, should the coil melt again before I fit another ECU, no big deal changing the coil again (and I won't charge for the coil, got loads of loose ones for these injectors knocking about).
Simon
I never did get around to reading Rob's build thread Richard, seen the video though. Equally as clever as bonkers hehe.