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Morat wrote:

Sounds like those vintage looking French vans with corrugated sides that get converted into Coffee stands or Pannini Wagons. The ones I see at shows arrive and leave on a trailer anyway!

That kind of thing but they were intended to get used and I did see one delivering locally that the firm had built before I started there. Staff comprised the business owner who hardly ever got hands on, me and an old bloke who was good but took an age to do anything, I was old bloke's apprentice. Could have been an interesting job but was boring (slow pace) and never going to last, can't have been profitable for the owner.

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The vintage looking French vans usually are just that, either Citroen H vans or Peugeot J type. Probably easier to trailer them that risk them breaking down when there's money to be made and they are bloody slow.....

Some of the vintage look vans were made by the Asquith Motor Company from Essex who used Transit running gear and came up with things like this
enter image description here.
they took over a company doing something similar based in Doncaster (the Vintage Motor Company), so I suspect that's where you went.

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Richard - Reading your link further back up the thread, it looks like Scotland are not following the model used elsewhere in the UK (mainly England as far as I can tell) and are banning vehicles altogether from the zones rather than allowing payment of a charge (and fining anyone who drives into them in a non-compliant vehicle instead). It does also mention the Bristol scheme as far as its possible to do so (as its not decided yet what they will do), which is just targeting diesels as its NOx they need to reduce.

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Trouble is, according to that long and not exactly thrilling pdf I link to earlier, LPG isn't that great for NOx. Better then diesel but worse than petrol.
It's a small sample size, but I haven't actually seen much research into the actual emissions produced by the various fuels.

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BrianH wrote:

are banning vehicles altogether from the zones rather than allowing payment of a charge (and fining anyone who drives into them in a non-compliant vehicle instead).

Looks like the Scots are following the French model then. Under the French scheme, going into a zone (and while it started just in Paris Lyon and Grenoble, it's spreading to quite a few other cites now https://www.lez-france.fr/en/information-about-the-critair-vignette/french-environmental-zones-zcr/french-environmental-zones.html) with either a sticker for a prohibitted class or not displaying one at all, results in a €140 fine. Not sure how it is policed though, whether it is done using CCTV and looking at the colour of the sticker or whether it is by ANPR, I've no idea.

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Morat wrote:

Trouble is, according to that long and not exactly thrilling pdf I link to earlier, LPG isn't that great for NOx. Better then diesel but worse than petrol.
It's a small sample size, but I haven't actually seen much research into the actual emissions produced by the various fuels.

In that particular test yes, but if you read this bit
"NOx emissions (figure 10) from both vehicles fuelled with all fuels were lower than 30% of the Euro 6 limit. For vehicle A, emissions of NOx were considerably higher when running on LPG (a difference of 35% over the entire NEDC), but for vehicle B they were 10% lower when running on CNG. The engine calibration and the precise chemistry of the TWC have a great impact on NOx emissions and it is possible that for other vehicles fuelled with petrol and with LPG or CNG in turn these trends could be contrary."

That would suggest the results may be different on a different vehicle for whatever reason (engine design, calibration not quite right/kit not well suited to the particular vehicle, etc etc, though it should be pretty close to whats required given they are manufacturer conversions).

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The higher the combustion temperature the more NOx is produced and it also increases if there is surplus Oxygen in the exhaust. So if an engine is running a bit on the lean side, it will run hotter and there will also be excess Oxygen left over from the combustion process. So a lean mixture will dramatically increase the NOx emissions. Maybe the one car they tested was running a bit lean?

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Could well be, and I'd like to see a bigger sample set. Do the GuvMint collect data from all the MOT testing stations? I'd like to think they have some idea what LPG does for emissions compared with the major fuels, otherwise they're just throwing darts in the dark (which could be how they ended up backing diesel).

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Bear in mind also that the various drive cycle tests aren't really great for reflecting real world driving conditions either - as has been shown by the diesel emissions saga vehicles can be engineered to pass the tests/perform well on paper but this has little bearing on the real world use of them. It also looked like the first test cycle listed (I think this was urban?) was worse whilst the others looked lower. You'd need a good idea of what the urban test actually entails to see if this would be anywhere close to real world conditions.

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Most decisions have been taken by successive Governements as knee jerk reactions to whatever the latest research says. Back in the old days, petrol had lead in it but research found that many children with retarded brain development had a higher than normal level of lead in their bodies. Ignoring the fact that most paints also contained lead in those days and kids have a habit of chewing on things, someone advised the Government of the day that it was down to the lead in the atmosphere from vehicle exhausts. So, they told the fuel companies that they had to remove the lead, which they did (in stages from the original level of 4mg per litre to 1.5 mg per litre) but as the lead was there for a reason and not just because they felt like adding it, they had to add a chemical equivalent to lubricate the valves and seats. However, as this chemical was quite a complex compound when it got burnt along with the fuel it produced all sorts of chemical nasties, including some that were known to be carcinogenic. So something had to be done to get rid of them and the something was to add a catalytic converter that converted most of the nasties to nice harmless CO2. Great says everyone, so cars are now exhaling the exact same stuff as humans do which is then turned back into Oxygen by trees.

For a very short period, everyone is happy until another bit of research shows that CO2 is a greenhouse gas and too much of it is contributing to global warming so we need to reduce it. Quick fix, the Government encourages everyone to drive diesels as they produce less CO2 than petrol engines, job done. As this coincided with Peugeot producing the XU-D series of engines, the first really civilised diesel engine, the public started buying them. Encouraged by lower running costs from the economy, the public, along with fleet buyers, flocked to buy them. For a period, everything is rosy in Government land until more research shows that diesels may produce less CO2 but they also spit out particulates which are even worse than the nasties that came from burning the lead substitute additives (remember them, the ones that the cats were introduced to get rid of?). So they need to reduce those. As the emission tests are done to a set cycle which largely simulates driving in a city, simple answer. Fit a filter, the DPF, that collects the particulates when driving in the city and empty it out when the car is driven at speed for any length of time. So don't pollute the city streets but dump the crap out in the countryside instead (a sort of automotive flytipping if you like). Then came dieselgate where it turned out that manufacturers had been fiddlingthe results of the emissions tests making their diesels look far cleaner than they really were and suddenly diesel became the most disgusting fuel known to man..

So now, the answer is electric vehicles, ignoring that the electricity has to be generated somehow (producing yet more pollution) and the pollution created by the manufacture of the batteries, that's someone else's problem. Bring back the lead I say, that's what started this whole thing in the first place......

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Realise you are just being a bit provocative there Richard, but, whilst we are bringing back lead, can we also bring back coal too as I am getting nostalgic for smog and steam trains.... and maybe these folks won't notice (?): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/California_Air_Resources_Board

As mused numerous times before perhaps the answer was (is ?) for cars to be built to last 20 years.... and don't even get me started on 'scrappage schemes'... Our scrapyards are full of cars only ~10 years old..... aka "beyond econonomic repair".... why, exactly ?

Overall I wonder how many Politicians actually understand how ICE works..... or if they simply just prefer to listen to lobbyists instead ?

Edit: I have decided to cover my roof/garden etc with PV cells - just in case
Maybe I can get a Govt. Grant to pay for this if they are so 'green' now ....?

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Ok, I considered this some more and I am (again) leaning towards:

https://www.dyson.co.uk/automotive.html

Any 'UK' company that manufactures abroad, can get folks to buy hair dryers for £300 (when you can get something nearly as good for £30 must be onto something. Hmmm... all thanks to 'digital motors' ? ..... what's next ? Digital batteries.?... "2020" ?? Well I forecast somthing the size of a Smart Car , £50K and purple... and around 2025.....

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davew wrote:

Realise you are just being a bit provocative there Richard, but, whilst we are bringing back lead,

Not really, just making the point that had it not been for the research back in the 1980's that resulted in it being mandated that at first lead should be reduced and then removed completely, we would still be running around with lead in fuel. That may well have not resulted in the other changes over the years bought about by the knock on effects.

On the Dyson point, I've never quite got my head around the concept of a digital motor. Digital, as opposed to analogue, means it has only two states, on of off or up or down. So how can something that generates movement be digital? Digitally controlled, yes but not digital.

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Knock on ? Well they knew adding lead to petrol (because of knocking etc) was a bad (unhealthy) idea for a long time of course....
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-40593353.

... but I suspect the more recent problem was when they started to use ECUs, Hegos etc (as well as the Catalytic Convertors) to remove other pollutants.. Again you will be aware that a push for (standardised) OBD followed (although the Car Manufacturers did not like it that much - of course: How could they (over)charge for Diganostics/repairs then etc etc ? )

Yes, Dyson are just using a gimmick.... it if really were a 'digital' motor it would be off then on then off then on etc ?? Maybe it is, in a way (but I know what you mean). Presumably digital means "magic" to many consumers (whereas I tend to think it just means "unnecessarily complicated / expensive to repair". ? Maybe they will even have a 'digital turbo motor' in their EVs (or some other hype/nonsense) ?!

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There was research done by the Medical Research Council in London into particulate pollution caused by vehicles back in the 1960s. Even back then they noticed the huge spike in readings when diesel vehicles drove through the underpass they were using for the tests. I don't have the references as this is word of mouth (My Grandfather was their Librarian after he retired) but it seems that legislators have regarded what is now known as PM10 as an "inconvenient truth" for many decades.

Richard, I'm not convinced that removing lead increased the total CO2 emissions of petrol engines by a significant amount as the cats are only converting residual HC to CO2 which is basically just tidying up after the main combustion process has done the same thing in larger volumes. I always understood that one of the main reasons for switching to unleaded was to allow the introduction of catalysts which are are poisoned by lead in petrol.

On the other hand it's definitely true that the Benzene added to fuel as a lead replacement is carcinogenic, but no-one seems to have proved that its use in petrol has caused any ill effects. This could be due to catalysts cleaning up residual benzine, or maybe it's just because anyone drinking unleaded has died before developing cancer! :)

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I miss marvelling at my nice grey exhaust after a 3 hour 120mph blast to Cornwall, especially after replacing valve stem seals and setting the carb and ignition timing up nicely lol. No more grey exhausts or maintaining 120mph for long :-(

I see it as Richard said with the clarification by Miles. But did anyone suggest going back to leaded fuel would be a good idea? Edit - I wouldn't agree with that.

Prompted me to check out Dyson batteries, V7 has a 21.6V 2 amp hour battery so 43.2 Watt hour, same battery could power a 1kw old Hoover motor for 2mins40seconds. If the Dyson runs for 30 mins between charges it must only have an 80 Watt motor - no wonder they don't work as well as a corded vac! Motors have been fairly efficient for a long time so not much room for improvement... Digital motor, is that a normal motor but fed with PWM power to maintain same rpm under load? Now Shark vacs are advertising that their new models feature hair removal grooves to prevent the scrubber bit getting clogged up and maintain cleaning ability (cos we don't like hairy scrubbers lol)... so not because hair on the scrubber bit stalls the motor and prevents it working at all then? Should invent a small petrol engine'd vac, would only need a petrol tank of a few millilitres to have the same power and running time as the Dyson and I could clean up emissions by converting to run on a lighter refill canister ;-) We have a Shark, it's shit, but I think if I were to buy a V6 or V8 vacuum I would be even more disappointed!

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I believe that the general definition of a "Digital Motor"is indeed an electronically commutated multi pole motor, typically DC Permanent magnet
as opposed to AC induction (Although AC EC motors are pretty impressive)
They are also as Richard says, either on or off....That is, each pole (Winding) is switched on and off in a linear fashion. Think Rail gun, just
circular in design. They are very much more efficient than a brushed motor and the same power can be had in a smaller, cooler running
package. Just look at the typical power drill. Find a 40 year old variable speed plug in job, an 1st generation battery drill, and the latest compact
Brushless types (Brushless DC = "Digital") You will see the striking differences instantly.
More torque, less weight, much less heat........I have used all of these, and indeed, have a drawer with all of the aforementioned tools to
use as comparisons. Remove the batteries, as they have obviously improved over time, and the basic machines have dropped in size and
weight by at least 50% (Like Dyson) They rely on "Rare Earth" magnets, thus another reason for the current global panic caused by everyone else
suddenly realising that virtually the entire supply is controlled by China! Golly! How did that happen??

Having built several electric vehicles using shunt wound motors (Old school) I would like to do one of them up using an brushless motor
and, yes, a "Digital" controller It would be interesting to see the efficiency increase.
More information:
https://www.digikey.com/en/articles/techzone/2016/dec/how-to-power-and-control-brushless-dc-motors

You mention the ICE Shark? How about a fuel cell powered shark, that uses Butane, and a small reformer to create the Hydrogen for the cell?
With a micro reformer, any HC based gas can be used to run them, including Methane from home digestors......Just compost your wet garbage!
Shoot! It's a Brit invention to boot! ........Since it was announced nearly 5 years ago, and I don't see many around, it was
probably quashed by the oil industry! ;)
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=2ahUKEwiiidrY9P3kAhWRSxUIHXz2BmsQFjABegQIABAB&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.extremetech.com%2Fmobile%2F212795-this-hydrogen-fuel-cell-powered-iphone-6-delivers-an-entire-week-of-battery-life&usg=AOvVaw2H0Hosp4_7tG9frZNb2d3-

Here is another (We have not seen yet) from the Germans:
https://www.extremetech.com/electronics/198695-kraftwerk-fuel-cell-will-let-you-charge-your-phone-with-gas

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Lpgc wrote:

Should invent a small petrol engine'd vac, would only need a petrol tank of a few millilitres to have the same power and running time as the Dyson and I could clean up emissions by converting to run on a lighter refill canister ;-)

Sounds like a plan to me but where would you find the motor? I've got a hedge trimmer powered by a 36cc engine and a strimmer/brush cutter with a 49cc motor but both are two stroke. So how do you get the oil in with the fuel if running on gas? I've also got a motor mower but a vac powered by a 149cc Briggs and Stratton might be a bit cumbersome......

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Gilbertd wrote:

Lpgc wrote:

Should invent a small petrol engine'd vac, would only need a petrol tank of a few millilitres to have the same power and running time as the Dyson and I could clean up emissions by converting to run on a lighter refill canister ;-)

Sounds like a plan to me but where would you find the motor? I've got a hedge trimmer powered by a 36cc engine and a strimmer/brush cutter with a 49cc motor but both are two stroke. So how do you get the oil in with the fuel if running on gas? I've also got a motor mower but a vac powered by a 149cc Briggs and Stratton might be a bit cumbersome......

Flashlube type setup should work, just need to find somewhere to put the second tank and fill it with two stroke oil instead? Not sure you'd want a two stroke engine indoors though, even on gas. What happened to the engine out of your old SE that should have some cleaning power?

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Oh no, ICE-pwered vaccum cleaners...... but will I have to pay the ULEV charge to use it in London ??
Looks like you could get wealthy using it though:

https://www.instructables.com/id/A-gas-powered-vacuum-cleaner-for-use-in-gold-prosp/

Been familiar with Digital Motors for a while: The first one I encountered was the Direct Drive Strathern Turntable (1973); This had 'two states' in more ways than one..... notably when started it could turn in either direction (!); Oooopps.... Background for those interested (and some BL info. too) :-

https://zstereo.co.uk/2013/11/07/strathearn-sma2/