Went with dropping the lot out from underneath but instead of using the garage beam and pull lifts used an engine crane to lift the front of the van
Already had swapped the engine at this point, putting the gearbox back on here (for the 2nd time... read on!).
Just a bit dodgy!
This was the second time I've dropped the running gear off...
The first time around I dropped the subframe and removed the gearbox from the engine while they were on the floor under the car and used the ML to pull the engine and subframe out while leaving the gearbox on the floor under the car, used the crane to swap engines on the subframe, pushed the subframe and engine assembly back under the car and re-attached the gearbox under the car. However I wasn't confident that I'd located the gearbox input shaft in the TC correctly and I didn't check it by trying to spin the crank before putting most of the car back together, I did have a look at flex plate clearance through the starter hole and it seemed OK.... But then when I did try to spin the crank using a ratchet after refitting the job lot (exhausts, props, steering, ancillaries, lots of wiring, etc) it wouldn't spin, so then I realised I'd goofed up in a big way and the gearbox would have to come off again!
Second time around I pulled the whole lot out with gearbox still attached to the engine, used the crane to help me get the gearbox back on properly after making sure I hadn't bent the flex plate, made sure it was mated up properly.
At the moment the subframe with engine and gearbox on are still sat on the floor in the yard waiting for starter motor etc putting back on.. But at least have learned a bit about what parts must come off when dropping the subframe now and will be a bit quicker at putting it back on this time. Starter motor, AC compressor, front drive shaft, possibly downpipes and heatshields can be left attached, PAS pump and alternator still have to be fitted when the subframe is back on.
Where does the trade turn to when buying driers? I plan on getting the Elgrand back on the road soon then fixing it's AC system but the system has been open to atmosphere for a long time so I think it will be best to change the drier after pressure testing.
Thanks Sloth, raised my eyebrows with DIY kits in the UK aren't allowed to contain actual refrigerant - I have charged completely empty AC systems using DIY refills and they've worked so obviously the gas contained in the refill was refrigerant of some type?
Knowing what I (think) I know now if I still ran cars that used R12 I'd fill them with LPG (propane) and probably see what I could come up with regards compressor oil. Back in the day when AC in the UK was fairly unheard of I used the services of several AC specialists, visited them at their homes, they probably only usually worked on commercial systems since hardly any cars had AC. Filling quantities were guestimated (except for the sight glass) and it was expensive but propane would have been cheap. All the specialists also seemed to over stress the dryer needed changing and would have charged about £700 for that lol, I never changed a dryer and never had a problem.
Surely anyone working on car AC systems should know the clutch won't come in if a pressure sensor reading / switch reflects very low pressure.
I too have had AC specialists try to fob me off with under filling systems and made them put in the full correct amount. I think just about every car I've had with AC (which is just about every vehicle I've personally owned since about 1989) has had a plate with info on how much gas the system should hold... But it seems AC gas capacity data supplied to chain store type AC centres is often a lower figure than the figure on the plate - so particularly in larger/chain AC companies it might not be the technician that's trying to fob people off, it might be the firm's policy to save money by underfilling systems and the technician might be unaware.
Sloth, what are your thoughts on the DIY AC refill kits from e.g. Halfords? They have a pressure gauge and you're supposed to get the LP side pressure reading 'in the green' on the gauge... Is reading LP pressure a reliable way of knowing if the AC system is properly filled? I've used them plenty times especially for top ups and they do work but I'm always left wondering about if the system is under/over filled.
Also, can you use propane in R12 systems?
Yeh that makes sense Gilbert
Could just plug the evap line Gilbert, maybe save a bit of petrol too.
RutlandRover wrote:
romanrob wrote:
a TSB about a rocking front seat :o)
That one sounds interesting. Every so often I think I can feel my seat move ever so slightly but don't seem to be able to replicate it!
Not just Rangerovers, My old ML has the same problem.
I can't speak in detail specifically about P38s like Gilbert but I also don't see it being wrong. A lot of automatics with torque converter lockup won't lock up the converter until the gearbox is above a certain temperature. Some will lock the TC in gears as low as 2nd if gearbox temp is too high. Only really happens on autos controlled by an ECU that switches electronic solenoids that control flow of trans fluid (some only do this for the TC). After having the battery disconnected or clearing gearbox related error codes some take a while before they start to lock the TC again. Some autos that are purely controlled by an ECU and electronic solenoids will both refuse to lock the TC and shift gear weirdly/harshly until they have effectively re-learned to shift gear properly, what they are actually re-learning is overlap between turning off solenoid(s) and turning on other(s) which equates to learning how much fluid needs to be shifted to engage clutch packs etc, they want the gearbox to be fully up to temp for the learning and the gearbox will warm quicker when the TC isn't locked.. Even if the ECU only controlled TC lockup (not shifting) might expect it not to lock up if the battery has been dead for a few weeks. Even locking the TC can be too harsh or too soft. On some electronic controlled autos you can read figures from the gearbox ECU relating to how long the solenoids have to open before a clutch grabs and when that figure is high it can point to clutch packs nearing end of life. I've had lots of fun with Chrysler Grand Voyager autoboxes lol.
Hehe sounds like old skool advice that's since been seen to be wrong.. On a pressurised system such as your sequential system it's not important to have equal main feed pipe lengths. If it were important we'd see little difference between fuelling to different banks anyway at low loads but would see a difference in fuel trims at higher loads (when the pipes have to flow more so restrictions leading to drop of pressure at the end of the pipe becoming more apparent) with the bank fed by longest pipe having more positive fuel trims, not seen on anything except maybe extremely powerful engines with exaggerated differences in feed pipe lengths. An electronics analogy would be like having 2 lengths of 3amp cable, one length 10cm long the other length 5 metres long, stick a 12v LED light at the end of each length with the other end connected to a car battery and there'll still be 12v at the LED end but stick a 90watt halogen bulb at the end of each length and there'll be a lot more voltage drop at the end of the 5 metre length, but if we changed the cable to 60amp rated cable there'd be little difference in voltage at the bulb ends of either length, the 12mm internal gas pipe is more 60amp than 3amp lol.
Same with pipe lengths between injectors and manifold, if you have a 3mm nozzle in the injector then different lengths of 6mm internal pipe aren't going to cause different flow of fuel to each cylinder (and this can be proven by switching individual cylinders back to petrol). Still don't want too long pipes between injectors and manifold but that's because it effects the pulse of gas to the port rather than overall amount of gas to the port so instead of a quick pulse flowing X amount of gas at the correct time there can be a longer pulse still flowing same total X amount of gas so less of a pulse more of a continuous steady flow. Not much problem with more continuous steady flow instead of quick pulses during cruise conditions but can be detrimental to accuracy of fuelling during changing throttle/rpm conditions, throttle response and smooth idle.
When using just the vehicle battery does it turn over at normal speed or slow?
If you use jumps leads on the first attempt at starting will it fire straight up?
Run ok on petrol once started?
Among faults that will make the LPG ECU refuse to work on gas are main feed voltage issues, if it doesn't see a petrol injection pulse for one or more cylinders, any LPG sensor electrical issue or reading out of range issues.
Finally started doing a bit of work on the dead Elgrand - Removed the front bumper and radiators which allows good access to the front end of the engine and PAS / AC pipe and wiring connections, obviously would need to do this if I were removing the engine from the front anyway.
Since the pic I've removed the PAS pump, alternator and AC pump.
Now I'm umming and ahhing as to whether to remove the engine or engine and gearbox from the front or to go with Gilbert's suggestion of dropping the entire front subframe with engine, gearbox, front diff etc still on it. Problem with just pulling the engine out the front is access around the bellhousing bolts is tight, problem with pulling the engine and box out the front is the front diff might be in the way of the transfer case/gearbox, problem with dropping the lot out on the subframe is that the van will have to be very high off the ground to clear the height of the engine -Just out of shot low down in front of the engine there's a chassis crossmember that isn't removable and isn't part of the front subframe.. Would be easier to cut the crossmember out and weld it back in when the new engine's fitted but I'm not going to do that lol.
On LPGforum thread https://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14613
Another useful modification would be to add a dish of rat poison to that area ;-)
They can be handy to have around, especially with a built in compressor / little invertor.
I prefer the type you can jump start from instantly rather than those that charge the car battery.
But types with sealed lead/acid batteries that you can jump start from instantly are usually in an over-sized housing and take up much more space than necessary. Built in extras like compressors are usually very low quality even by mini compressor standards and wear out very quickly.
Most with lead/acid batteries have their charge socket connected directly to the battery, so if you do leave plugged into a car cig lighter socket and the lighter socket isn't ignition switched, if anything flattens the car battery it will also flatten the jump start battery.
For a really good set of jump leads you're probably better off making your own from welding cable. The cost of copper to make a decent set of cables would be more than the full price of most cheap cables.
Just tying this thread off...
Pics of finished engine bay
Engine / mixers etc
Reducer
I too think the Quaife LSD overkill Clive, especially with the twin wheels on the back.
Some pics and a bit of a write up / questions :-)
SU mixer
I went to the specialist bolts supplier I use in Doncaster (Bapps) but they didn't have any longer studs in stock (apparently they would usually be able to supply 5/16ths UNF thread studs but not at this time). They did have that thread in bolts but the threads were only an inch up the bolt then a straight shank... I did try cutting the heads off said bolts and dieing the other end to M8 but that didn't work... So I tapped the carb holes M8 and made some M8 studs then fitted an M8 nut at the other side of carbs just in case (can't put a tack where a nail's been)...
Mixers fitted
Inside view of the dizzy, bit of oxide / corrosion in there, I scraped most of it off. The rotor arm looks newer than the dizzy cap but had a bit of wear on the anticlockwise edge - I could have found out from firing order but just as easy to ask you lot - which way does the dizzy spin? Cleaned up the rotor arm too.
Spent most of today under this vehicle finishing off the rear end and main gas pipe feed but done a bit in the engine bay too, mostly just fitting the mixers, finding which pipes are fuel feed/return / breathers, etc.
Seems to miss on one cylinder at idle, not quite so bad as was now that I've cleaned the dizzy etc but still very prominent. A loud ticking from the engine which I now think is valve gear related (due to frequency vs rpm), perhaps the miss and tick are related?
When the engine is idling I can completely cover the carbs with hands but feel no vacuum on my hands even when I blank off breather pipes - what's going on with that (where is the engine getting it's air? How come the carbs supply fuel when there seems to be no airflow through them or at least not from main air intake?
I don't hold much hope for good results on LPG due to the hand vac test and also because I put a film of spit across the 12mm gas pipe feeds to mixers with the engine running and it didn't even pull the spit down the pipes.... so much for 'signal' on the 12mm pipes! But I haven't got as far as that yet.
Carbs have a fuel return pipe but seem to be fed from a conventional mechanical fuel pump (wide diameter feed, narrow diameter return) so looks like I'll be fitting a conventional carb fuel shut-off solenoid rather than cutting power to an electric pump.
I watched this engine run last night in the dark, no sparks from HT leads etc. Runs better with a bit of choke even when warm but that could be the choke holding throttle open a bit. Hell of a rock on the engine with the misfire, very soft engine mounts.
Must be SUs on this one, the mixers I had on shelf fit.
The mixers are only 10mm thick but that's thick enough to make the studs from the carbs too short, may be able to unscrew studs slightly or fit longer studs. The none metric studs have a course thread into the alloy carbs and finer thread for the nuts, if I need to extend them could either make all M8 (involving slightly widening holes in angled pieces and mixers, possibly re-tapping carb holes M8 or maybe using a nut at the rear of carbs) or see if the bolts supplier has set screws and matching nuts in the course thread. But I think I've gone the M8 route before, couldn't re-tap the carbs M8 and there was little space for a nut at the rear of carbs.
Measuring up for and ordering the tank is the next priority though.
Taken some pics of these plate mixers on the carbs, will post up when less busy.
Thanks all for replies and advice. Hope the meet went well.
I believe the mixers I have are for SU's used on RV8s...so hopefully they'll be correct, will find out tomorrow.
Even if correct I may not yet use them as they'll space the carb to air filter pipes away from the air filter and there might be a better way that doesn't involve extending one or both of those pipes back to the air filter.
What make were other dashpot type carbs used on V8s in Landrover models then? I remember buying those I have on shelf years ago when I presumed carbs on an RV8 were SU's but found out they were a different make when the Land/Rangerover I was converting arrived.
I'm converting an ex ambulance Rover V8 powered LDV van to LPG, it has twin dashpot type carbs but I'm not sure if they're SU's or something else. I've had mixers on shelf to suit SU's as fitted on some Rover V8's for years... they might fit this but I'm asking in case they don't as it could save me a bit of time when I start the job if mixers on shelf don't suit and I need to order other mixers - Mixers for dashpot type carbs are not circular they bolt directly on so need to match the bolt pattern and flow area. Day off work today, just had the van dropped off and took the pics.
Quaife LSD on this van... And on the floor seen through the window to the left of the sticker Romano reducers I removed from this P38 https://www.lpgforum.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=14509&sid=7a71dc88de8366acee8e5d1015589dcc
The LDV has only done 26000 miles in it's 21 years but the engine smells a bit blow-by breathy and exhaust smells rich so I'm half expecting a few complications, running rich on petrol won't affect running on LPG but blowby and crankcase ventilation issues can. The engine has a bit of a tick, if it's had so little use wonder if rust ever formed in cylinders and damaged rings, no smoke though. The van is high roof, automatic, carries a cooker and camper gear, canoos etc on the massive full length roof cage and owners reckon it gets 14mpg which I'd think seems about right.