You'd need to bring the car to me to take advantage of my free calibration. I don't include an interface cable in the prices above but can supply the proper one for around £30 (I just pass on the price to me), you might want the cable just in case you fancy a dabble yourself in future or for diagnostic purposes in future but would need one from the outset if you didn't intend on bringing the car to me for calibration.. in which case my tech support extends to talking you through calibration (but would be best if you could bring it to me for calibration). My price includes a cert I produce, it doesn't mean much but is good enough for DVLA and some insurers but not all insurers as some insurers will only offer cover if a converted vehicle is on UKLPG's database. I can register a vehicle on UKLPGs database but it costs me £80 to do so, if you want your car on UKLPGs database I just pass on the £80 to you. I make sure your install is fitted safely before I'll issue my cert or register it on UKLPG's database. If you were to buy a kit from elsewhere and wanted it on UKLPG's database you would need to take your finished install to a UKLPG registered installer for a safety check, and could expect them to charge you more than the £80 I charge only to fail it, because by failing it they may hope to charge you for 'remedial work' to 'bring it to spec'. Bit just like if your car fails an MOT on brakes.. most of us here won't have a problem sorting brakes, but if you pay the MOT man to fix brakes he's then got to pass the vehicle on the brakes aspect lol. If you bought a kit elsewhere I could still register your car on UKLPG's database but I would then also charge more than £80 to do so, though I wouldn't want to fail it and wouldn't charge more than once for inspection until it passed. At this point, if you are considering coming to me for a kit or conversion, don't mention your registration or chassis number on forum - I'm not a member of UKLPG and the information could be used by someone to discover which UKLPG members are willing to register a vehicle on UKLPGs database on my behalf, which could result in them losing membership of UKLPG. The irony is that anything I fit or approve is likely to be safer than if fitted by a UKLPG member, particularly if drive-ability is also considered a safety aspect.
Simon
I wrote most of the following before anyone else had replied, just never clicked to post, so sorry if if it goes over the same ground as other people's replies or doesn't address some of their points.
Thanks for the mention Oldshep, got to agree you don't do anything near enough mileage to make an LPG conversion financially worth it.
RutlandRover - Don't buy that front end from Ebay. It is an old OMVL system, judging by the spud location I might even have originally fitted that system to the Rangerover the guy on Ebay removed it from! I would now expect the pictured OMVL injector rails with black coils (a very old type) to have a lot of wear on them (the new OMVL Superlight type with plastic rails and blue coils last a lot longer and are far more reliable), the reducer will have seen better days, as will the pressure sensor and ECU. The pictured parts wouldn't cost a great deal more to buy new than the old parts pictured, but all new parts would mean you would have to drill and tap your manifold (which isn't a big deal and in no way should be considered a plus point for buying second hand).
Front end parts mean just the parts that go under the bonnet, no tank, filler or any piping and wiring that run under the vehicle between the filler, tank and engine components. You would be well advised to fit new piping everywhere anyway rather than piping of that age.
Not a bad brand at all though, when I first started fitting sequential LPG systems I fitted nothing but OMVL because it had comparatively decent performing injectors and a reducer that could handle big power (far better than modern day OMVL reducers in fact) and back then front ends were bought as a complete set (ECU and loom, injectors, reducer), where these days we tend to buy individual components. The components in the second hand system are older spec than a new OMVL system though, the injectors are not as reliable and the ECU though sequential isn't truly sequential.. That's all I'll say here about sequential but not truly sequential or I'd be going into too much detail! The old ECU can give just as good results on a P38 as a new truly sequential ECU.
These days you'd have trouble buying a new front end that was mutlipoint but not sequential (but such systems do exist and were commonplace at one time... Tartarini Etagas is one example of such a system), you could easily get hold of a single point mixer system but I would only advise a multipoint sequential system.
I could sell you a complete (including tank, filler, piping, etc etc) brand new DIY kit for about £800, or you could buy the same bits from a supplier for less, but I give very detailed tech support with my DIY kits while the customer fits the system, and then the customer can bring the finished install to me and I will sort any minor problems and calibrate it properly without charging any extra. Don't forget the £800 includes the tank etc, I sell new front ends for P38s for £500. To supply and fit job done I'd be looking at £1400. To be honest I didn't join this forum with intention of making money out of being here, I'm here out of interest and won't think anything if you buy bits elsewhere etc.. Gilbert and a few other forum members could talk you through the install if you bought bits elsewhere and I would still chip in with tips and help on forum. The front end parts I'd generally supply for a P38 would be much the same as those in the LPGShop link above, though I may supply a different reducer. The reducer in the link is the modern version of OMVLS Dream unit, which (as said above) won't flow anything like the same amount of gas as the old spec Dream reducers (won't go to the same bhp level) but is capable for a P38, the old spec Dream reducer would be capable or at least just about capable for a supercharged L322!
Seems ages since I last did any major LPG work on a P38, in reality it's probably only about 5 weeks, but I've got one coming in on Thursday and will at least be removing it's OMVL Piro ECU and loom to fit a different ECU and loom. Piro was supposed to be OMVLs replacement ECU for the AEB2568 spec OMVL Dream ECU like the one being sold on Ebay (and one from LPGshop) but they never did manage to get Piro working properly and it was a short lived system, even OMVL went back to AEB2568.
Simon
I'm not at all familiar with Nanocom but going on what you've said it's fuel trim readings seem similar in concept to Jap import stuff where 100% Alpha would equate to Euro ltft=stft = 0, one of your trims at 1.50 might equate to Alpha 150% or ltft=sftf = 50%. I'm converting a lot of Jap import stuff these days!
Using the scope in software would have to be done at the same time as monitoring trims, because during proper closed loop operation ginj will remain the same when you adjust calibration while pinj figures change.. Suppose If trims were highly negative, then for a given pressure and nozzle size ginj might be suitably higher than pinj but only because of the negative trims, if calibration were then adjusted to bring trims close to zero ginj might be below pinj... Got to compare ginj with pinj when trims are about right to know if pressure and nozzle combination are about right, though tbh it won't make a great deal of difference on a P38 if ginj is a bit below pinj, all it will do is momentarily slightly richen mixture during positive throttle movements. The switching method can be used instead of the trims method, I use a combination of trims monitoring and switching method during the same run.
Simon
Hehe, It is for reasons like this that I tend to be a bit over-explanatory.
Won't hurt to try the 4k7 setting mate..
All coming back to me now about your ex Zavoli P38 install on the other thread - I sometimes forget due to seeing so many cars and talking LPG so much!
Next question following post above might have been how does ginj compare to pinj when you put your foot down and mixture is suitably rich?
Simon
@OB, Just out of interest do you go to Glastonbury as a punter or more involved?
What temp readings are you getting now? I think the default 4.7K setting should work.
It is normal for the changeover switch not to light the first few times you turn ignition on if the ECU hasn't been calibrated, it usually stays lit while ignition is on after then if firmware is new enough to have the rpm box unticked by default, yours should be like this. Another strange aspect of AEB ECUs is that there can be a bit of misfiring on petrol the first time the engine is started with a new ECU fitted that hasn't been powered up before, can only put this down to ECU not making the connection across the petrol injector loom break at that point for some reason.
What nozzles did you fit in the Hana's? Hana's selected in firmware? Using a Zavoli reducer at 1.4 bar?
Simon
I've only just noticed this thread...
Most AEB system temp sensors are the same spec except Tartarini.
King ECU with latest software and that firmware allows you to select between a couple of temp sensor specs for both reducer and vapour...
Yes the later ECUs won't show current data with ignition off. Some won't show current data if the interior switch is broke either.
If temps were incorrectly reading 110c it wouldn't throw mixture off much during most conditions but would throw mixture off a lot if temp readings were -40c. Default temp correction goes wildly negative for -40c but is maybe only +8% for 110c.
I wouldn't connect to OBD.
SImon
I know a bloke who paints every vehicle he gets matt black and mounts a plastic skull either in the front window or on the bonnet. He was into 4x4's a couple of years ago, didn't buy it from Yorkshire did you?
Changed my signature anyway :lol: Now to see if this works...
Simon
Done the thread on the car on LPGforum Maserati
If anyone posts on that thread, no mention of the vids please ;-)
I'm certainly not a virgin mate but yeah I've been on a couple -) Sky.
I'll be doing a thread on LPG forum on a Maserati Grand Turismo I just converted, but I dunno if I'll be including the following content, or if I do it may be with a disclaimer!
Those that know me may be interested ;-)
Dropbox links 190mb and 100 mb respectively::
.
vid 1
I thought I was the first to convert one of these, at least properly, at least to run totally on LPG at full throttle up to the red line in sport mode, so what a shame when as a coincidence I receive these anonymous mental videos via email (or something, I forget how I obtained them now) from some other at least half decent LPG pro who seems to have achieved just that. Obviously I wouldn''t be crass enough to film such stuff on phone, especially while I was driving. Man after my own heart, though... . ;-)
Simon
No probs Marty.
Yeh I thought the figures you mentioned seemed to point to bigger than 2.1 nozzles. Hanas without nozzles flow a little bit more than Hanas with 3mm nozzles, I think you'd be good with 3mm or no nozzles if you can turn pressure down a bit (1.2). Or you'd be OK with current nozzles if you could turn pressure up to 1.7 bar..
Yes the late spec P38 / Disco Bosch ECUs are more OBD2 compatible and show trims correctly (as you'll know maybe better than me) so an LPG ECU's OBD facility should read trims properly on that, but still I wouldn't advise connecting. There are pros and cons to connecting to OBD and I reckon the cons outweigh the pros on most vehicles - I hardly ever connect OBD.
Matrix setting will be best for Hana's, but the map figures with Hanas are pretty much a straight percentage so 180's in the screen represent a multiplier of 1.8 which points to too small combination of nozzles / pressure.
The problems with low resistance Hanas with AEB would apply to the King ECU too. The King may have an option for Hanas but still the AEB ECUs can have problems driving them consistently at low pulse duration, but low pulse duration isn't seen on a P38 so this won't be an issue. The reliability of AEB with Hana's isn't a big deal, among those of us with enough experience to attribute ECU failures to low resistance injectors the rate of failure noted has been very small.
Over the years Zavoli have used various types of injectors - Matix wearing Zavoli stickers, Zavoli pan type and a couple of types that are of a similar design to Valtek type 30's. I have all types here that I've removed from vehicles in the past but out of those wouldn't consider using anything other than Matrix and perhaps pan as part of any install or repair. Pan were probably the best Zavoli own brand injectors, Matrix best out of the lot, the other types would probably rate poorly to most modern injectors and the firmware settings for them would be a bad match for Hanas.
Simon
Hi Marty, Yeh I've fitted loads of Hana2002's lately on stuff like Nissan Elgrand 3.5's. Would advise at least 2.5 nozzles on the P38 (I used 3mm on the Elgrand 3.5 engine at 1.4 bar..) - You don't really want numbers above around 150 in the map, especially if you selected some types of injector such as Matrix in firmware. Wouldn't advise the LPGtech ECU, if you intend to go anything other than AEB I would suggest KME Nevo (the top version has OBD adaptivity built in), or even Stag in preference to LPGTech. You could even just buy a King ECU and swap it in, you can buy an OBD loom to add to your existing loom, you just push female pins into relevant pin holes in your existing AEB ECU connector)... But I wouldn't advise connecting OBD anyway.. even if it would read your trims properly given the P38's none standard OBD (that means some OBD readers including LPG ECU readers return trims of 99% even if trims and everything else are perfectly normal). Nearly a quid a piece for Hana Gold nozzles - just drill them out! I grip them in the round grip section of pliers in one hand and use a small chucked battery electric drill in the other, when you get the knack of it you can feel if the drill is following the existing hole, takes me about 10 seconds each nozzle.
Simon
As Gilbert says.
Also, there are various kinds of emulators with the two most common types being petrol injector emulators (dummy electrical load to simulate petrol injector electrical load) and lambda signal emulators. You don't usually need a discrete pinj emulator with a sequential LPG system because one is usually built into the sequential LPG ECU (except on a minority of systems such as Prins / AG as Gilbert says), and in fact you don't really need a pinj emulator at all on a Rover V8, but it is best to fit one. Sequential systems don't need to emulate lambda because they work as a slave to the petrol system so the petrol system's closed loop operation continues to work as normal (if LPG system is in good working order and calibrated properly). If you have a single point LPG system (or any LPG system that doesn't work as a slave to the petrol system) then petrol fuel trims will drift when running on LPG unless a special type of lambda emulator is fitted, this special type connects to the vehicle OBD to monitor fuel trims and connects to the petrol ECU's lambda input so they can adjust the lambda signal that the petrol ECU reads, they then steer fuel trims to zero, thus preventing the type of fuel trim drift problems your post might describe. But since P38 OBD is none standard it can be difficult to find an intelligent fuel trim steering type of emulator to work on a P38, and since P38s don't kick up much of a fuss (no MIL light to show fuel trim errors etc), intelligent fuel trim steering lambda emulators are seldom fitted on P38s that could benefit from them. Single point LPG systems usually have facility for some basic lambda emulation but this isn't usually capable of reading OBD fuel trims, so it can't steer fuel trims to zero, in effect they just send an oscillating voltage to the petrol ECU (which can help on vehicles which come up with a lambda error if the petrol ECU doesn't see lambda voltage flick). This also isn't much use on a P38,so where P38s are converted with single point technology the LPG system often taps into lambda voltage so it can correct mixture while running on LPG, but the lambda signal that the petrol ECU sees is just actual lambda voltage, not emulated at all.
Simon
Reading another thread prompted me to write this...
Years ago as a kid in the 70s I used to visit scrap yards with my dad when he was looking for bits for his cars, Landrovers, boats, or just bits to make other stuff out of. I remember on a few occasions we visited a surreal site, massive, indoor and outdoor sections, and one of the indoor sections was a huge warehouse with old complete Landrovers the length of the entire warehouse stacked 3 or 4 high on racking! Outside there were bombs, old artillery pieces, all sorts of eye opening stuff to a kid. It must have been some sort of ex forces storage depot but I can't remember where it was... I can't see the place still being around today, or even if it is there's no way they would allow the general public to go in and look around these days. I believe it was around the Doncaster area, can anyone fill in the blanks in my memory with any info about it?
Simon
BrianH wrote:
Is it on a straight bit of pipe that its broken? Theres a product called splice lok available which allows you to cut a section out and replace with the splice lok if its a simple break.
Having read about Splice lok type products years ago in a mechanics mag they came to mind when I discovered where the front to rear brake pipe was leaking on the ML (a common area of the pipe to fail where it's more open to road splash just forward of rear ns wheel), rest of the pipe not in bad condition. Haven't used Splice lok yet though.
How about trying this firm (http://www.bee-cool-aircon.co.uk/services/ac-pipe-repairs/)
I don't think I'd be much concerned about using copper pipe either, though would probably at least look into potential pag oil compatibility issues again before going that route... and, never know, the firm above might not be much dearer than the copper pipe.
When I fixed the Peugeot with rubber pipe it was a case of either just bodging the pipe break under the bonnet or replacing the full pipe which ran through the bulkhead (and I seem to remember also under engine mounts etc), so the alternative would have been a much bigger job, dash out etc.
Haven't been visiting this thread, title gave impression it was about the nuts and bolts of engine rebuild..
Think I mentioned the pros and cons of fitting injectors under bananas, including tightness of space for most types of injectors... Wouldn't have attempted to fit Hana injectors under the manifold, they're not very small in any dimension and Hana's on rails are a big block. Single Hana's have gas outlet at bottom and inlet at top, not great if you're limited to space above the injectors such as if there's an upper section of banana manifold to go over them!
If I were to fit injectors under bananas I'd go for MJ single injectors, which have gas inlet at the side and remote wiring connector at the end of a couple of inches of wire, they would have fitted no problem and have 3 ohm coils. Currently fitting some single MJ injectors on the Maserati I'm converting but that's because they're some of the most responsive injectors available and this thing has a high red line, plus the single MJs mean pipe lengths are all less than an inch. But I wouldn't go the under manifold route on a P38, I came up with the cutting webbing out between bananas to fit OMVL injectors in the correct orientation (side outlet injectors so injectors stand up vertically as they should) idea, which delivers the results on a P38.
There can be no direct comparison between maps on AEB systems if different spec injectors are set in the configuration, because injector config effects whether e.g. a map value of 130 gives a multiplier of 1 (say OMVL injectors) or multiplier of 1.3 (say Matrix injectors). Another thing to watch out for with AEB systems is that certain injector configs impose a minimum gas injector pulse duration, not good if you're running really linear injectors that work properly well below that minimum duration and you're fitting on a powerful engine that demands high pressure and big nozzle size, because this can mean the engine always idles rich with ginj bottoming out at say 3.5ms (OMVL example setting example).
Most AEB ECU's don't really like driving low resistance injectors, such as Hana (1.3 / 1.9ohm), anyway. Worst outcome could be premature ECU failure, but there can be issues with fuelling below 3ms ginj. Conveniently if you fitted Hanas, you shouldn't see less than 3ms pinj on a P38, pinj is probably close to 4ms at idle with warmed engine and you want ginj to be higher than pinj.
If you autocal an AEB system with system reference at 1.1 bar and actual pressure of 1.4 bar, AEB should do a decent job of accounting for the pressure difference, it shouldn't be of much consequence, so if it's too rich after running autocal I would expect to either need to manually adjust calibration, or the too rich condition might be due to the ECU imposing that minimum pulse duration. If at this point you changed reference to 1.4 bar without running autocal again it would be even richer, because numbers in map would be the same except the ECU wouldn't be subtracting any ginj to compensate for actual pressure being above reference pressure. Since would expect autocal to work OK with pressure being 0.3 bar out, it could be that fuelling seemed OK after adjusting pressure and re-running autocal because the gas temp had risen in the meentime - due to temp compensation ginj might then be above the imposed minimum of ginj. How does ginj compare to pinj at various loads including idle?
What size nozzles are in the Hana's (if Gold variety) or what spec are the Hana's? Those cylinder KW versus nozzle size charts are a very rough estimate, they presume too much and are something I never take notice of.
Simon
We've been through this before on LPGforum Gilbert, I think the findings were the gas is OK with copper but some pag oil isn't?
Mentioned how I'd replaced an electrolysis corroded aluminium section of pipe (where it meets steel car) with rubber pipe and fittings sourced from a hydraulic firm. That pipe was thick though, probably not an option for behind the dash.