I can't really understand why there's another thread and discussion on this now?!? I asked these questions about stud torques in my engine rebuild thread and it was discussed there...

I mentioned in my thread that V8 tuner (who I got the studs from) recommended studs hand tight (I just 'nipped' them the tiniest amount with an allen key to make sure they were seated home), and then the nuts done up to 70lb/ft, done up in 3 stages, with a rest period of 20-30minutes between stages.

Mark, YOU yourself said in my thread that "70lb/ft sounds like a good number to go for" I was taking the advice from the collective wisdom of the forum, as I'd never built an engine before... but now you're contradicting that and questioning a) ARP and their updated instructions, b) V8 tuner who told me 70lb/ft when I bought the studs, and c) yourself who agreed with it in my thread... but when it comes to your engine, it "might be a bit too tight, 65lb/ft is a good number"

Incidentally my engine seems to be running just fine at 70lb/ft..

With the amount of advice you input into my thread, I thought you were an expert at engines and these things, but it seems like when it comes to your own one there's indecision and second guessing at every turn.

If the blue one has been sitting around for awhile over the winter, then could it have been a load of condensation inside the engine which has mixed up with everything and created your look of more serious problems?

The early ones have a moulded socket on the latch, the version 2 (FQJ103220) had a loom and a 6 + 1 connector. The later ones which you'll have being a 2001 has a loom, and a single grey 8 way connector - of which 7 pins are used.

The switches are moulded all as one block, with the wiring coming out of the moulding - so if you are going to replace the block with one of the sets I sent Gilbertd, then you will have to solder/heatshrink in the loom.

Alternatively, I have a completely refurbished latch of the style you need on the shelf - however I'm heading away this afternoon for work, and not back home until Monday evening, so wouldn't be able to send it until next Tuesday.

I also would agree that chances are a pipe has probably rusted through and is causing your leak.

I don't think it's quite as dire as Gilbertd mentions about it emptying itself in seconds (I also would NOT advise driving it far until fixed though!)... as the rear brakes, whilst on the power circuit, yes, don't get the full pressure that the front calipers get from the power circuit. The rear brakes have a pressure reducing valve which is external to the modulator block (hides under the coolant tank) which then creates the slight brake bias towards the front.

It will still drain the reservoir fairly quick - but not as fast as if it was a front line which failed, as they DO have full brake pressure going to them!

The Nanocom shows the option there for the LH Key Switch, as this is obviously in the LHF latch on a LHD vehicle. It won't show any state, and I am guessing that the LHD/RHD BECM option tells it which one to look at for key activation. (and other things - like memory seat I would imagine)

As to why the locking works... Because of the CDL switch.
The 3 switches in the latch are all mechanically driven:
The Door ajar switch is triggered when the door is opened/closed from a lever off a cam.
The CDL switch is triggered when the door is locked or unlocked, by one of the locking levers
The Key switch is triggered by a lever which moved either side off centre (the switch is open circuit when the key/lever is in the center position and then triggers the microswitch when it is turned in either direction)

So the key switch is ONLY triggered when the key is turned, and the SAME lever which triggers the key switch ALSO moves the main locking lever to lock/unlock the latch. When the locking lever is moved - whether it be by the CDL motor (if triggered by the fob for example), the sill lock button OR the key, then the latch will physically lock/unlock and the CDL microswitch will change state.

So without running through every locking mode of the vehicle (they're all listed in the ETM from memory - or maybe the workshop manual) then locking the vehicle with the key in the door, with a faulty key switch will still trigger the CDL switch and signal the BECM to lock the other doors. as it's all a manual linkage from the key barrel -> latch -> lever in the latch -> locking lever.

But instead of the BECM recognising it's been locked by the key (from activation of the key switch when the key is turned and moves all the linkages/locks the latch) it will only see the CDL switch change state - which is what would happen if you were in the vehicle and locked it with the sill lock button.

Locking with just the sill lock button will centrally lock all the doors (it's connected mechanically through a rod/lever assembly too), but it WON'T set the alarm (so that you can then unlock it from inside and open the door without it screaming at you (like it would if the alarm was set, and someone decided to break a window, unlock a door from the inside and open it).

So without the detection of the key being turned, the vehicle will still centrally lock, but it also won't set the alarm as it just thinks it's been locked from the sill lock button.

I think the BECM needs to see both the key switch AND the CDL activating for it to initiate the BECM listening for the fob code to sync.

I'd replace the door latch, check the batteries in the fob are making good contact and getting full voltage to the PCB, and then see if it will sync up.

If it STILL won't work, then I can try capturing the fob codes at some point if I'm about the area (or at summer camp if RutlandRover comes) and make sure that the code being transmitted by the fob matches what the BECM is expecting to see - I'm not sure if I had my fob checker at the time when I did the BECM unlock, but it's something I'll offer to do on every BECM that comes in now! (unlike another person across the pond who does BECM work and lists on their site that their standard unlocking doesn't even include ANY testing!)

As an aside... I'm in the middle of building a BECM bench tester... so will hopefully be able to do nearly full testing... I'm planning on including door outstations, door latches, and RF receiver in the various looms - so fingers crossed can test fobs etc all on the bench! Progress is a bit slow at the moment, as I've got plenty of other things to work on, and it's a LOT of wiring... but getting there!

If the key switch in the latch is faulty, then it might not sync up still either.

Is the 'IMMOBILISER' setting in the BECM turned on or off? If it's off, then the only way of syncing the fob is in the drivers door - which if the key switch is faulty, then it might not do it. The electrical manuals show that the BECM uses the change in state of the CDL switch to initiate the sync (and listen for the transmission from the fob) but I wonder if it needs the key switch to work aswell, so it knows that the key has been turned in the lock, rather than just the sill lock button having been moved.

Definitely check the batteries to make sure there aren't any shorts, and then also worth getting the door latch sorted and seeing if it will sync up then

I can't remember which bits you sent me last year - whether it was BECM, fob and door latch, or just the BECM/BECM + fob.

It is always easier when you've done it many times...

It's the same for me when it comes to unlocking a BECM, it takes me about 15-20 mins to get one out of the vehicle, but some people are scared to even attempt it, because it's the big box of voodoo magic... or I can get a door latch changed in about half an hour, including testing and putting the door trim back on.

I understand the theory of LPG, the fact it has lower calorific value to petrol, so needs the 'fiddle factor' to adjust the injection timings to suit.

I did the first 1000 miles on the new engine solely on petrol a) to bed it in, and b) to see what the fuel trims looked like after that distance, and also varying conditions or road, traffic, engine loads, and of course, my right foot!

I noticed than when running on petrol the fuel trims seemed to bounce around a bit +ve/-ve either side of 0 anyway, so my aim when I was tweaking the LPG just parked up was to get the pinj times looking close to what they were when running on petrol for the same given rpm, when I did this, I had the trims bouncing about the same as they were on petrol - so was good enough for me. I'm a perfectionist - I want it all to be as close to perfect as possible - but I'm also a realist, and I know I'm never going to acheive a bang on 0% fuel trim, so in my mind, as long as the LPG is following the petrol close enough and not making the petrol ECU over compensate (which then obviously seems to be causing my random starting issues at the moment as the petrol ECU trims are just being shoved to one extreme of the other).

I'll go through tomorrow and flatten out the temperature corrections - the old Zavoli ECU doesn't have them, and the underbonnet heat on P38's seems to be pretty consistent once it's up to running temp.

I don't mind it being a bit richer under acceleration, as it gives it a bit more poke (obviously don't want to drown it in fuel though) - but there's obviously something going on at the moment which is causing one of the fuel trims to be pulled way off of normal, and I can only think that this is my cause for it now not starting properly sometimes. It's only started since trying to get the LPG installed and working again, and when I run it on petrol for any length of time, it seems to sort itself out again, and will start/run happily.

Something more to look at tomorrow...

Marty

There were some early P38's that didn't have TC at all,

2 Wheel TC on the rear wheels was pretty standard, and then 4 wheel TC from '99 onwards.

As Gilbertd says, you can swap bits over, but I think that it's more than the ECU and modulator - you would also need to redo the wiring loom, as the connectors between the earlier/later ECU's are different, and there are more wires to the modulator block aswell from memory. Not a simple plug and play replacement sadly, but not impossible

The install of the replacements aren't difficult - it's just a large number of wires to solder together! I plan on offering a fitting service aswell for those who aren't as au-fait with a soldering iron, or don't want the hassle.

But that aside - if you only have the sat nav coming through, but nothing else - maybe try disconnecting the sat nav unit, and seeing if you get the rest working. I've heard before of the sat nav unit failing where it effectively permanently sends the 'mute' signal to the DSP amp for when it talks. If you get the radio/CD audio etc without the nav plugged in, then chances are it's possibly not the DSP amp that's at fault

So, I'm still getting strange readings on the LTFT's and after a 30 odd mile drive last night (all on LPG), it took 3 or 4 turns of the key to get it to start.

Did the run back home on LPG aswell, and then went to look at it this morning, so hooked up the Nanocom, and found this:

So the 'Idle trim' which the Nanocom manual shows as being the LTFT is pretty much maxed out, and the injector time is stupid (which is probably why it struggled to start). I tried starting it and nothing - just turned over (no faults in the engine ECU list either).. reset the adaptive values, and then it started up - albeit a bit lumpy (probably stinking rich if it had just been pumping fuel in before with a 56ms injector time!

I hooked up my ELM bluetooth unit and got torque on the sat nav unit (android!) so I could watch the fuel trims on each bank in real time. Fired it up on petrol, with adaptive values reset and got it so it warmed up and idling fairly happily. Flicked over to gas, and both fuel trims went vastly positive (pinj times on the LPG software also shortened) - so gave that a bit of a tweak, until the fuel trims stabilised more, and the pinj times came back to where they were on petrol.

Did that a couple of times at different rpms (whilst stationary at the moment) and at the 3 rev ranges I tried, it was all fairly rich.

I guess the next thing is to try and find a piece of road I can cruise on a bit, and get the laptop set up in the car so I can monitor the trims and the inj times and make adjustments with the engine under load.

Runs happily on petrol, and the journey last night on LPG was great when it was running - but it seems to be messing with the fuel trims something crazy!

In a word... No... they aren't repairable.

That's as a general rule of thumb though, as it would depend on what's actually wrong with them.
The guy on the other forum hasn't come back shouting from the rooftops that he's managed to fix them so far, so my guess is that they either aren't repairable or he's still working on it.

The failing DSP amps is the big reason I started looking into making a replacement system with used standard RR door amps on a board to then swap out the DSP amp and get proper audio working with the factory head unit. I did a writeup on the idea here: DSP Amp Replacement

I am in the process of building a couple of replacement amp boards at the moment - I now have the final connectors and pins here to finalise the wiring looms. I am still working on the factory sat nav integration though, but to get standard audio from the head unit is easy..

As far as I see it, multipoint and sequential are the same thing.

Multipoint systems are where you have an injector for each cylinder which is sequentially injected at the right time (IE when the petrol injector would normally fire)

As far as I was aware, the more expensive systems were Direct Injection - which is higher pressure and directly injects liquid LPG into the inlet, rather than the lower pressure gas which has been through the vapouriser/reducer.

If you are a DIY'er, then go for a kit and install it yourself... If I were doing a fresh install, I would get a brand new kit, rather than someone's old stuff. Whilst it might be cheaper to get a second hand kit, it's always going to be hit and miss, as you don't know how they've wired it, if the injectors are old/worn, and also as mentioned would need re-setting up and calibrating to your vehicle anyway - so you would also either have to take it somewhere or get the software/cable to do it yourself.

I've just been through and replaced pretty much the whole front end of my system - new injectors, pipework, filter, vapouriser - and most recently ECU as the old one (was originally installed in 2008) decided to start playing up, just as I had finished the rest of the gas install and got it calibrated again. About the only bits I haven't changed is the tank, valves, and the gas line from the wheel well to the vapouriser.

IMO, if you an get an eBay kit for cheap, then great - but don't be surprised if you have to start replacing bits of it sooner rather than later - at about 6yrs on my Zavoli system (fitted about 4yrs before I bought the RR - so a couple of years after I bought it) one of the injector wires failed, which I repaired, then another went, so decided to replace them all - which then lead to redoing pipework, filters etc. vapouriser was done when we swapped the engine as the cooling system was drained, and I figured the rubber diaphragm at 8yrs old was probably going to need replacing at some point.. I'm not saying that you won't have half of what I've done - to do to an eBay kit - but it could be a false economy if you get it cheap, and have to replace parts in a couple of years, vs buying a new kit which will last the next 8-10 yrs with just normal servicing.

I'd get in touch with Simon about a kit price if you're happy to install it yourself - or look at something like this:
LPG Shop 8 Cyl Kit

And then you would just need the tank/valve/filler etc - which you can get from LPGshop aswell, to suit where/how you want to mount the tank.

A bit more than the eBay second hand, yes - but cheaper than a full install..

My 0.02 :)

Looking in the instructions for the Nanocom, to remind myself about the trims, it says they are a ratio of between 0:1 and 2:1 with the ideal being at 1:1 obviously.

The idle trims are actually the long term fuel trims according to the documentation, which in my understanding the trim of 1.5 means the petrol ECU is detecting lean running, so is increasing fuel injection times to compensate.

Effectively the map that it's autocalibrated to for the LPG is a bit lean at the moment, so the petrol ECU has been increasing its trims.

I'm going to tweak the map a bit before my journey today (another 80+ miles) and reset the adaptive values to flatten the petrol trims again, and see what effect it has. I'm saving the configuration every time I change something, so I can revert if required.

OK, I'll give it a shot the next time I hook the laptop up.

I've hooked up my Nanocom diagnostics and read the fuel trims from the engine ECU, after the run down to London today, and they look as follows:
Trim A: 1.00
Trim B: 1.00
Idle Trim A: 1.50
Idle Trim B: 1.49
Multi Trim A: 1.07
Multi Trim B: 1.08

The Multi-Trim (I presume long term trim in normal speak!) is OK to me - as on petrol it drifts a bit too..
The Idle Trim is the bit that will need looking at - 1.5 is about maxed out - and I had rich running codes stored in the ECU, so something to look at when I'm back home next week.

I'll have to set the laptop up and run it to record some data when actually driving when I'm back home - but from a rudimentary feeling of right foot and accelerator away from traffic lights, or to speed up to overtake on the motorway, it doesn't feel lacking in power on gas.

I've seen that the King software has a 'scope' option to record the data - so will put the USB extension on, and get it recording pinj and ginj times under varying conditions. I'll see if I can find a route near home where I can do 2 runs - one on petrol for a base reading and one on gas to compare... or should I just do some switches between petrol/gas on one journey?

I'll post up what I find...

Cheers,
Marty

Sorry, 8th/9th July

I've had a look and the 7th/8th is OK by me. I guess we have to try and find a weekend that suits the majority, as it looks like there isn't a weekend where everyone is free!

Unless we maybe go towards the end of July - 22nd/23rd maybe?

Because that's how the alarm system works - it's designed so that if you lock it with the fob and some cheeky bugger has managed to get a copy of the key blade - then if you lock it with the fob, it won't let you unlock with the key in the door without entering the EKA.

Any time you need the EKA to be entered, the drivers door only will unlock until the EKA has been accepted, so what it's doing is normal.

If you lock it with the key in the door, not the fob, then you should be able to go back an unlock it with the key in the door, with no problems.

Must be some form of crazy RF which is stopping your fob transmission to get through to the receiver and BECM..

I'll have a look the next time I hook the laptop up.

The switch still isn't lighting up until the engine is running, and it's all configured and calibrated.. did the run to London today OK, but going to have a look at the petrol fuel trims to see what they look like after the 80 odd miles on gas to see how they look.

I know my sensors are 10K - so set the ECU to that at the moment, will read the temps with it running when I next have the laptop out there.

Config has LPG injectors set up as Hana 1.9 ohm, with Zavoli Zeta/S reducer at 1.49 bar. Nozzles are Hana '1 stripe' 2.4mm, but I ran a 2.5mm drill bit through them before fitting as you suggested in my other thread on the engine rebuild.

The 'revolution signal type' box is checked, and set to Standard, 2 coils. This is how it was set up on the Zavoli system - so I have just copied these settings over, as the brown RPM wire is obviously connected somewhere!

I'll post up what the fuel trims look like when I've read them.. they were sitting pretty flat on petrol before I did the run today on LPG, so will be interesting to see what they've done.

Regards,
Martin

Thanks for the input Simon.

The default setting in the King ECU was 4K7 for the sensors, but my Zavoli ones were 10K, and had forgotten to change that setting (as the Zavoli firmware on my old ECU has no options for sensors).

I've swapped the changeover switch aswell just to be sure, (did it when I swapped the ECU - partly because the old one won't stick back down, and this one has nice fresh double sided tape on it!) and the temp readings now look correct with the engine running.

Is it normal for the changeover switch to not light up until the engine is fired up too on the later ECU's - again, the Zavoli one would power up and light up the changeover switch with the ignition on, whereas the King one doesn't.. I'm getting used to it - but still look at it sometimes and think it should be on like it used to be!

Seems to run OK on gas at the moment, which is good. The map readings are now a lot lower with 2.5mm nozzles and the pressure set at 1.4bar, which is about what it stabilises at when running on gas.

It's got a run to London to do over the weekend, so will see how it runs on LPG, and I'll keep an eye on the fuel trims to see how far it pulls them over a long journey, which will give me an indication of how much tweaking I have to do to the map.

Noted on the OBD..

Cheers,
Marty

Sounds like you need the BCPR6ES's then... they have the smaller hex head..