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The only place for a coil spring is up Zebedee's arse
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Thanks a lot for all the comments, very much appreciated. I would have really gone ahead without the advise from everybody on the forum who all gave lots of useful information.

Isn't £5 for labour a bit much. You have to give serious consideration to the labour rewards or you could be faced with unsustainable wage demands 😆.

Anyway today I decided to refit the sunroof cassette and check that everything works OK. I have the glass out so, with my willing helper, now being paid 92p an hour after a long employer/employee meeting, I got the empty cassette back in the car. No problem there then. I released my assistant as I didn't want to pay her overtime, as it is Saturday.

So, reconnect the drain tubes, check that the sunshades runs back and forth OK, a bit tight at the moment but very smooth. I checked to see that the "Tilt" position lifters are in the same position and use the T-key to raise the arms to maximum raise so that I could reconnect the lifting arms on the glass panel. Connect these arms, and connect the front hinged arms, fit screws and wind the glass back down to where I think the "Close" position in the vehicle roof would be.

Then remove the motor from the drive cables and run the motor to fully open, hold for a few seconds and then reverse, again holding down the switch at the end of the run. So far, so good. Refit the motor by pushing it up to engage the worm drive in between the drive cables, and fit the three screws to hold the motor to the cassette mounting. Give them a tighten and then run the motor. Whack, clack, whirrr whirrrr, and one side of the glass raises up, the other side doesn't. Bollo - what's happened here.

Remove the glass again, and I noticed that the mechanism that lifts the rear of the glass is at maximum lift on the driver's side but nearly down flat on the window track on the passenger side. How so, I didn't take any of these bits out, I just greased them, although I used the T-key to wind the sunroof mechanism backwards and forwards after greasing.

Get up and have a close look and I see that the pass. side mechanism is about an inch further back on the track than the driver's side. Lift of the strange covers that do a couple of things - they cover the drive cable ends, and they hold a small arm that operates a bit like an oil-well "nodding donkey" sort of action. Why are the two sides both in the same position - I have no idea, but messing about with the pass. side mechanism and it suddenly drives itself forward to the end of the track, so the same as the driver's side. PK, a big sigh of relief, but spend a further 30 minutes trying to get the mechanism cover back into its' correct position, push, twist and slide al together, ensuring I don't break any of the plastics.

Eventually, everything goes back in the correct orientation, so just check but using the T-key again to confirm that both side of the cassette are operating the same. Now to reset [for the umpthteen time, and there are plenty more times before it's finished 😅, the motor parameter, unscrew the motor from the cassette mounting, key in position 1 and run the mechanism back and f ---- no, no, wait a second - whirrrrrrrrrrrrr, click, whirrrrrrrrr. Crap, don't tell me that the worm drive has stripped.

Closer investigation reveals that the rubbish bolt fixing [a 4mm bolt into a captive rivnut] has pulled its thread and the motor isn't pulling up between the drive cables. As I remove the bolts and lower the motor the three plastic spacers, about a half inch thick to make up the space between the motor lugs and the mounting, decide to drop of the motor lugs, and as always happens Sods' Law takes over and two of the spacers disappear down under the front seats ! Therefore take off the plastic trims around the bottom of both front seats, get the torch and the telescopic magnet tool, and fish out one from under the rear seat ventilation tubes. Fish out the second one from the back of the "brainbox" under the driver's seat. Time spent - 45 minutes.

Do another parameter setting of the motor, and try to push up the motor between the drive cables, but with more force. Get the bolts back in, run the motor and - clack, clack, clack, clack. still not running the glass. Undo the first bolt and Sods Law jumps in again [he continued this several more times yet], the bolts vanishes under the driver's seat. 15 minutes later it is recovered, but suddenly another bolt holding the motor legs it too, only this time out of the pass. side door.

In the end, after 8 or 9 further attempts to run the motor, with and without the glass, a solution is decided on. A 4.5mm stainless self-tapping screw to replace each of the original bolts. Finally, finally, there is enough thread and grip to pull the worm drive in between the drive cables. Now - very carefully, and holding the breath, press the switch and, success, the drive mechanisms run backwards, press again and the mechanism comes back. Then get braver - run the mechanism all the way backwards, and back again. Success a second time.

Anyway, having spent all afternoon trying to sort this out I now have a sunroof that does actually go backwards and forwards, and tilts, but the dashboard still says "Sunroof open". For now, it will have to stay like that, but I know that I won't be happy and I will revisit it. I am hoping that it will just be a matter of disconnecting the motor, running the fully open/fully closed parameters, and reconnecting the motor. one a the PITA issues was the stupid bolts that hold the motor. I would say that they go about 5 mm through the captive rivnuts and they are stupidly difficult to get into the screw holes. At least with thicker self-tappers in place it will be easier to [a] get them back in, and [b] get more pressure and grip to pull up the motor.

One issue that I have is that I don't know where the "Stop" or "Neutral" position is for the drive arms on the track. When you press the "Close" switch, to bring the glass back down from "Tilt" there is no position by where the motor stops and puts the roof in the correct "Close" position. I had hoped that I could use the T-key to set the position manually and then use the motor to set the parameters required by the motor. But there isn't a position whereby the mechanism stops moving.

Right at this moment I have to use either the "Open" or "Close" switch to get the glass in the right position. I will have to have a rest for a few days and then think about having another look. I will not be putting the headlining back for the time being, at least until I get the glass to run to the parameters. Arrrrrrrrghhhhhhhhhhhh.

Sorry for the long saga, you guys all probably have something better to do, like taking the dog to the vet to have him put down !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Pierre3.

Hi Gilbert, thanks for your comment. I pretty satisfied, and my assistant now says she wants a payrise !!! Now she expects me to pay her more than 85 pence an hour !! Honestly, the greed of some people.

Pierre3.

Getting towards the end of this job. The headlining panel now has a new material. I am more sure than before that the headling has been re-done in the past because the adhesive spray pattern was exactly the same as mine when I started applying it !

Doing the main panel was a bit more tricky than I anticipated. Not overly difficult but tricky. Trying to avoid getting adhesive on the new material took a lot of care. Doing all the cuts for all the in's and out's was a pain, fortunately Madame had a pair of hairdressing scissors which proved to be sharp enough to cut the material into all the curves and angles.

The one real problem with my roof panel is that whoever took it out before didn't handle it very carefully, and with the new Oatmeal material glued on there are a couple of lines showing where there appear to be small cracks in the fibreglass. I am hoping that these will eventually blend in, but I will give them a bit of massaging this evening. Maybe a run over with a steam iron on low heat.

I think that an earlier owner [ there were only two previous owners before me] didn't bend the panel gently when removing it and caused it to crack the fibreglass in a couple of places at the back. Not serious but enough to show up in the new material. Hey-ho, that is life, but I am pleased to have saved over €500 by doing it myself. I can live with a few small lines if I have done it. The guy that I went to here in Ireland wanted €600 to do the job and I was providing the material.

I bought new material from Martrim for around £60 [I forget exactly how much] and the adhesive, 4 cans, cost €27 including delivery. I have stuck some soundproofing material on the open areas in the back of the car - cost €59 for 2 square metres of material called Shush Deadsound.

Just some more pictures:

Old cashmere material [loose] and new Oatmeal now glued to panel, one thing that always looked a bit odd was that the trim finishers around the sunroof was grey:
enter image description here

A couple of pictures of the self-adhesive soundproofing:
enter image description here
enter image description here

All I have to do now is refit the sunroof cassette, check the operation of the sunroof, and refit the headlining. And job should be Oxo.

We'll see !!!

Pierre3.

Gilbert, thanks for your post. I believe that the orangey-colour on the headlining panel is old rusty stuff from an old problem with the sunroof. It is not foam or any sort of material, and I think that if I start rubbing it with anything abrasive then I will do more harm, the the fibreglass, than good. There isn't actually anything stuck there.

So I found the problem with the sunroof not running. I think that if you remove the glass and then move the drive cables, even slightly, then the BeCM, or the motor looses its' parameters.

The answer to the problem is to unscrew the motor from the vehicle roof [3x 8mm bolts] and pull it gently off the drive cables which sit above the motor. Let it hang on the power cable.
enter image description here
enter image description here

Put the ignition key in position 1 and, holding the motor in one hand, press the "Open" switch and let it run for about 30 seconds until it stops. It may stop/start a couple of times but eventually it should just run for 20-30 seconds and then stop. At that point press the "Close" switch and let it run again for 20-30 seconds until it stops again. This sets the "Open/Close" positions.

Refit the motor by pressing it back onto the drive cables. There is a worm drive on the top of the motor and it sits between the two drive cables and this is how the motor drives the sunroof open and closed.

The glass needs to be refitted and set to pretty close to the correct height in the sunroof opening in the roof. With the glass in position press the "Open" switch and let the roof open back fully and keep the switch held down for a further 10 seconds. Do the same thing in the "Close" action, keeping the switch pressed for 10 seconds after the roof closes.

The next bit is important. Press the "Close" switch so that the glass rises to the "Tilt" position and keep the switch pressed for 10 seconds. Then close the roof to the closed position, holding the switch for a further 10 seconds. This should have reset the sunroof parameters. If it does work first time just go through the cycle again making sure to keep the switch pressed with each operation.

I need to re-do the material on the sunshade so I decided to take it out. If you follow the instructions in RAVE it won't work because it describes taking out, on the drivers' side, two screws holding the drive cable cover, do the same on the passenger side. Go back to the driivers' side and remove 2 screws from the sunroof track. Well, there aren't 2 - there is only 1, and removing this screw doesn't allow for the track to move.

I have decided to do it the LR way, and I have removed the whole sunroof cassette. As far as I can see this is the only way to do the job properly.
Interestingly, I don't think that the sunshade will come out without removing the cassette because there are two spring metal arms on the back of the sunshade panel, and there is a bar running from side to side of the cassette which prevents the sunshade from pulling forward.

The only method is to remove this bar to release the sunshade. See the picture below;
enter image description here
You can see the bar sitting loose here, on top of the cassette.

So just some pictures:
The sunshade after being scrubbed;
enter image description here

Missing a sunroof:
enter image description here

enter image description here

The cassette on my dining room table after being assisted by my reliable assistant [even though she said she wanted to go to the supermarket], see the bar across the cassette at the back of the glass opening. This stops the sunshade from coming any further forward and prevent the sunshade from being just pulled out;
enter image description here

Passenger side track:
enter image description here

Drivers' side track:
enter image description here

So that's it for now. I received 4x cans of Tensorgrip T44 adhesive, high temp adhesive specially for the motor trade.

Pierre3.

Hi Donmacn, thanks for your post. I am happy enough with the headlining panel, there is no old foam stuck to it anywhere. I am of the same conclusion that it is only some sticky adhesive on the fibreglass surface and I will do more harm than good scrubbing it with a wire brush. There isn't actually anything to scrub off.

I was going back through lots of old threads on the internet, and one post of interest popped up from MartyNZ, the guy that does the switch packs and other stuff. He said that, as far as he was aware, if the display shows "Sunroof open" when it is closed then the motor needs to be reset while not being connected to the sunroof itself. I haven't been out to have a look but it seems that I have to unbolt the motor from the roof, I think then somehow disconnect the drive to the panel, and then run the motor all the way backwards and then all the way forward, then refit the motor and reconnect the drive to the glass.

Marty thinks that by doing this the motor regains the fully open and fully closed signals and should then work OK. As the sunroof worked fine, before I messed with it, as my wife said [ 😅 ], I believe that the motor is working properly.

I didn't think about looking in the driver's hand book about using the T-key to re-engage the motor. I will do than straight away, right now, immediately, and see what it says.

Pierre3.

The last pictures are of the panel with the material removed. It is just a fibreglass surface, front and back, there is nothing to scrub off ! So, I am wondering, did the later P38's have a different type of material with a cloth-type backing, or has, perhaps, the material been replaced at some point.

I don't think that the material has been replaced because the surface of the fibreglass is just the same as it would have been when it was originally laid down. I have used fibreglass, many years ago, and I know what the raw surface looks like before it is finished for painting.

On the issue of the sunroof glass; It was working OK before I took out the glass panel. I didn't do any disconnections of the drive cables, I didn't do anything to the motor. I took the glass out by undoing the four screws that hold the glass in, took out the glass, resealed the seal and refitted the glass.

I thought that I had located the glass in about the correct position in the sunroof opening and tightened everything up. When I pressed the switch the glass rose up to the first position, but then just stopped and wouldn't reverse.

First thing - does the sunroof motor lock with the T-key ? I thought that I saw something somewhere that said if you use te T-key you have to use it to "relock" the motor.

Where does the BeCM get its' open/close position message from ? Is it from the motor or is there a switch of some sort in the glass track ?

Pierre3.

Just some general pictures:

New material backing;
enter image description here

New material front:
enter image description here

Old material backing:
enter image description here

Old material front;
enter image description here

Panel front pic 001:
enter image description here

Panel front pic 002:
enter image description here

Panel front pic 003:
enter image description here

Panel rear:
enter image description here

Panel rear edge:
enter image description here

Pierre3.

Hi, me again !!!

I have taken out the headlining panel, and it is looks a bit like the headlining may have been re-done previously. When I took off the old headlining there wasn't any foam rubber stuck to the panel, it pulled off just leaving a slightly sticky residue. I have the impression that when I spray adhesive onto the surface it will help by adding more "stickiness" to the panel.

The old material is a sort of velour type stuff with a flat, white material backing and a very thin layer of foam in between the front and back. Nothing at all like the roll of Oatmeal material that I received from Martrim.

I have one problem - I took out the sunroof glass to clean up the opening and reseal the glass seal, which all seemed to go OK, but when I refitted the glass and tested it for opening and closing it did the first upward rise but then wouldn't come back down. It just stayed locked open at the back.

I took the glass back out, just to check the cables etc. but everything was where it was before I started. I have had to use the key to close the roof, which it does perfectly well.

I can hear the motor clicking when I press the switch, and a message shows "Sunroof not set" [or whatever the usual message is].

When I took out the key I noticed that the display showed a message "Sunroof open" but it is closed with the key. What is happening here ?

One thing that I thought that I had read somewhere is that when using the key you have to turn it back until it locks or "clicks" or something. It was quite tight, using the key, to get the glass to move initially but now it runs backwards and forwards very easily, but I have not really tightened it up.

I used the key to manually put the glass in what seems to be the closed position and then adjusted the levels with the four screws that hold the glass in.

What anm I missing here ? I did everything with the battery still connected as it is on a trickle charger 24 hours a day.

Pierre3.

Hi, I have bought a recommended asdhesive, Tensorgrip T44 – Automotive Re-Trim Spray Adhesive. I had a long chat with the company that sells various types of adhesives, including Alpha AF 178 [the one that Woolies sell] but he has it only in 5 litre cans.

I have bought 4 cans of the spray-on Tensorgrip which the owner of the outlet says that they supply to a lot of car garages. Incidently, he actually supplies Woolies on occasions !

So, I am at the stage of have removed all the pillar trim pieces, all without incident using long metal trim tools. The only issue is that the drivers seat seatbelt adjuster cap cracked on one side, but is still in one piece.

I am going to drop the headlining tomorrow and get it cleaned up, ready for re-upholstering.

The only messy bit will be cleaning the top section of the tailgate seal. I had sqidged a bead of sealer into the seal and now I have to clean it of the seal and the body before refitting when I refit the headlining.

By the way, as mentioned earlier, there are indeed two fir tree clips holding the rear of the headlining panel and located under the rear pillar trim panels, one on each side of the headlining.

Donmac, many thanks for the offer of pics, by the way.

Pierre3.

Gilbert, I have been looking at various alternatives that are available in Ireland, and I see what you mean. As it is a contact adhesive it has to be sprayed onto both sides before laying down the material.

I think that I have a couple of alternative products, but unfortunately and like most items that are not on general sale, it is very difficult to find the correct products in Ireland ! I can't buy the Woolies Alpha AF178 [which they recommend] because they won't ship overseas. This is very common with a lot of inflammable type products. I had the same issue when I wanted a headlight repair kit called SprayMax - I had to try at least half-a-dozen stockists before I found one prepared to send a kit to me in Ireland.

I am going to ring around a few places tomorrow to check if the products that I have noted will do the job.

Pierre3.

I watched a video about redoing the headlining on a RR Classic [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMsp50gIq3w ] and the guy sprayed only the panel with adhesive, and then seems to have enough time to align the roll of material on the panel until it was parallel on each side. It shows him pulling and lifting the material up off the panel without the material sticking too hard.

Is this how it is done, just spraying adhesive onto the panel, and then laying the material on top of the adhesive, and smoothing it out ?

Pierre3.

Hi, guys. Thanks a lot to everyone for getting back to me. The details are very much appreciated, so I thank all of you for replying.

I had forgotten the sunroof trim, I have that out already as I wanted to clean it. It looked like there were some grubby hand marks on it. I am pleased to say that it has come up like new.

I really appreciate the encouragement suggesting that the job is perhaps not too difficult. I have told my other half that she is to be my "willing apprentice", although I will need to be careful because I can be a bit short-tempered, and Madame is a bit of an Irish spitfire !!!!!

There is quite a possibility, in a month or so, that I will no longer be on the forum and there will be a P38 without a headlining for sale but a widow in Ireland !! Just saying ..................................

Pierre3.

Hi, I was thinking about taking down the roof panel today, to retrim the headlining.

I know that people have said to remove the A-pillar trim and the D-pillar trim [which I assume is the pillar beside the back doors, but do I need to remove the rear trim panels beside the upper rear glass door ?

If this is the case does that mean stripping out the boot panels that run under the rear side windows, behind the rear seats ? I have had these trim panel out before, when looking to sort out the usual rear door water leak into the spare wheel well.

It does look like there is quite a bit more disassembling than I expected.

If I am correct, having had a good look in the car I need to do the following:
[1] remove all the grab handles and surrounds [already done];
[2] remove all the reading lights [already done];
[3] remove the front courtesy light fitting [already done];
[4] remove the sunvisors [already done];
[5] remove the alarm sensor;
[6] remove the A-pillar trims;
[7] remove the D-pillar trims;
[8] remove the rear glass door side trims;
[9] drop down the front door seals;
[10 drop down the rear door seals;
[11] drop down the rear glass dor seal
[12] take out the roof panel.

I saw that it was mentioned at one point to remove 2x fir tree fasteners at the back of the roof panel but I don't have any fastenings in my headlining, unless they are under the headlining material. In which case, I don't see how I could possible put the back after the panel has been re-upholstered as any holes would be covered over.

Maybe someone could perhaps just tick off the items above to ensure that I have everything listed before I start, and before I find that there is something odd that I have missed, and will prevent me from removing the panel.

Pierre3.

Gilbert, I have just seen your PM, so not to worry, I think that I probably have enough information from the various post and threads on line.

Pierre3.

Hi Gilbert, thanks very much for your information, it is very informative.

As I mentioned I am not sure that I can justify the cost of the Nanocom. I don't really do a large amount of DIY on the actual motor, or the BCeM, and, to be honest, I am not sure that I would know what the information means anyway !!

I am happy enough doing the mechanical repair stuff, such as testing and replacing mechanical parts, but I am a bit old and stiff to be trying to dig into the innards of the engine and gearbox. I have the diesel motor, and it seems pretty good. I had the heater plugs changed about 6 months ago, but it runs cleanly.

The only issue that I have at the moment is the usual drooping headlining. In fact, I sent you a PM the other day about this. I was reading a post where you did a group day changing the headlining with another member, Morat. I was wondering whether you have any photo's of doing the job that you could email to me ? It was called "Summer Project" I think, from about two, maybe three years ago.

If you do have any detailed pictures my email is pjpjjones8@gmail.com

Pierre3.

Hi, I am just wondering whether an OBD reader tool, Autophix OM850, is any good for doing stuff on the P38. I am guessing that it is only a code reader as it costs around £80.

I can't really justify a Nanocomso I am interested in whether there is much point in something like this Autophix OM850 ?

Pierre3.

It's kind of interesting to see all the people who get a cut of the revenue from things like TV adverts. It probably explains why it costs thousands for a 10 second spot on telly.

I don't know how many people get a few shillings from a record played on the radio but the singer and the songwriter certainly do. At least, up until the record is 25 years old, after that I think that anyone is free to use the music for nothing. Not sure, but I think so, and it explains why a lot of 60's and 70's music gets used in product adverts.

I was going to write a song once but ............................................

Pierre3.

Have you noticed if there is a difference between the original material and that supplied by Martrim ?

Pierre3.

Donmacn, yeah - I know exactly what you mean. I have come across it too many times on other, supposedly, adult forums that I expected to be for grown-ups !!

Pierre3.

donmacn wrote:

I took mine out a couple of months ago - still out!

As David says, the post trims and door rubbers are the thing. There's a good video somewhere that I watched first - on one of the other forums, but accessible to non-members. It might have been landyzone... which I joined once, but left quickly because of the high proportion of (apparently) 5 year old contributors!

Anyway, the video is pretty good, and highlights leaving the rear pillar trims and clips in until last, to give you room to work; and I think fully reclining the front seats to allow the lining to lie down on top of them.

Even when it's completely loose, it's still not the easiest thing to get out of the back of the car. You'll need a fair bit of space behind the vehicle to pull it out.