Hi Gilbert, thanks for your comment. I pretty satisfied, and my assistant now says she wants a payrise !!! Now she expects me to pay her more than 85 pence an hour !! Honestly, the greed of some people.
Pierre3.
Getting towards the end of this job. The headlining panel now has a new material. I am more sure than before that the headling has been re-done in the past because the adhesive spray pattern was exactly the same as mine when I started applying it !
Doing the main panel was a bit more tricky than I anticipated. Not overly difficult but tricky. Trying to avoid getting adhesive on the new material took a lot of care. Doing all the cuts for all the in's and out's was a pain, fortunately Madame had a pair of hairdressing scissors which proved to be sharp enough to cut the material into all the curves and angles.
The one real problem with my roof panel is that whoever took it out before didn't handle it very carefully, and with the new Oatmeal material glued on there are a couple of lines showing where there appear to be small cracks in the fibreglass. I am hoping that these will eventually blend in, but I will give them a bit of massaging this evening. Maybe a run over with a steam iron on low heat.
I think that an earlier owner [ there were only two previous owners before me] didn't bend the panel gently when removing it and caused it to crack the fibreglass in a couple of places at the back. Not serious but enough to show up in the new material. Hey-ho, that is life, but I am pleased to have saved over €500 by doing it myself. I can live with a few small lines if I have done it. The guy that I went to here in Ireland wanted €600 to do the job and I was providing the material.
I bought new material from Martrim for around £60 [I forget exactly how much] and the adhesive, 4 cans, cost €27 including delivery. I have stuck some soundproofing material on the open areas in the back of the car - cost €59 for 2 square metres of material called Shush Deadsound.
Just some more pictures:
Old cashmere material [loose] and new Oatmeal now glued to panel, one thing that always looked a bit odd was that the trim finishers around the sunroof was grey:
A couple of pictures of the self-adhesive soundproofing:
All I have to do now is refit the sunroof cassette, check the operation of the sunroof, and refit the headlining. And job should be Oxo.
We'll see !!!
Pierre3.
Gilbert, thanks for your post. I believe that the orangey-colour on the headlining panel is old rusty stuff from an old problem with the sunroof. It is not foam or any sort of material, and I think that if I start rubbing it with anything abrasive then I will do more harm, the the fibreglass, than good. There isn't actually anything stuck there.
So I found the problem with the sunroof not running. I think that if you remove the glass and then move the drive cables, even slightly, then the BeCM, or the motor looses its' parameters.
The answer to the problem is to unscrew the motor from the vehicle roof [3x 8mm bolts] and pull it gently off the drive cables which sit above the motor. Let it hang on the power cable.
Put the ignition key in position 1 and, holding the motor in one hand, press the "Open" switch and let it run for about 30 seconds until it stops. It may stop/start a couple of times but eventually it should just run for 20-30 seconds and then stop. At that point press the "Close" switch and let it run again for 20-30 seconds until it stops again. This sets the "Open/Close" positions.
Refit the motor by pressing it back onto the drive cables. There is a worm drive on the top of the motor and it sits between the two drive cables and this is how the motor drives the sunroof open and closed.
The glass needs to be refitted and set to pretty close to the correct height in the sunroof opening in the roof. With the glass in position press the "Open" switch and let the roof open back fully and keep the switch held down for a further 10 seconds. Do the same thing in the "Close" action, keeping the switch pressed for 10 seconds after the roof closes.
The next bit is important. Press the "Close" switch so that the glass rises to the "Tilt" position and keep the switch pressed for 10 seconds. Then close the roof to the closed position, holding the switch for a further 10 seconds. This should have reset the sunroof parameters. If it does work first time just go through the cycle again making sure to keep the switch pressed with each operation.
I need to re-do the material on the sunshade so I decided to take it out. If you follow the instructions in RAVE it won't work because it describes taking out, on the drivers' side, two screws holding the drive cable cover, do the same on the passenger side. Go back to the driivers' side and remove 2 screws from the sunroof track. Well, there aren't 2 - there is only 1, and removing this screw doesn't allow for the track to move.
I have decided to do it the LR way, and I have removed the whole sunroof cassette. As far as I can see this is the only way to do the job properly.
Interestingly, I don't think that the sunshade will come out without removing the cassette because there are two spring metal arms on the back of the sunshade panel, and there is a bar running from side to side of the cassette which prevents the sunshade from pulling forward.
The only method is to remove this bar to release the sunshade. See the picture below;
You can see the bar sitting loose here, on top of the cassette.
So just some pictures:
The sunshade after being scrubbed;
Missing a sunroof:
The cassette on my dining room table after being assisted by my reliable assistant [even though she said she wanted to go to the supermarket], see the bar across the cassette at the back of the glass opening. This stops the sunshade from coming any further forward and prevent the sunshade from being just pulled out;
Passenger side track:
Drivers' side track:
So that's it for now. I received 4x cans of Tensorgrip T44 adhesive, high temp adhesive specially for the motor trade.
Pierre3.
Hi Donmacn, thanks for your post. I am happy enough with the headlining panel, there is no old foam stuck to it anywhere. I am of the same conclusion that it is only some sticky adhesive on the fibreglass surface and I will do more harm than good scrubbing it with a wire brush. There isn't actually anything to scrub off.
I was going back through lots of old threads on the internet, and one post of interest popped up from MartyNZ, the guy that does the switch packs and other stuff. He said that, as far as he was aware, if the display shows "Sunroof open" when it is closed then the motor needs to be reset while not being connected to the sunroof itself. I haven't been out to have a look but it seems that I have to unbolt the motor from the roof, I think then somehow disconnect the drive to the panel, and then run the motor all the way backwards and then all the way forward, then refit the motor and reconnect the drive to the glass.
Marty thinks that by doing this the motor regains the fully open and fully closed signals and should then work OK. As the sunroof worked fine, before I messed with it, as my wife said [ 😅 ], I believe that the motor is working properly.
I didn't think about looking in the driver's hand book about using the T-key to re-engage the motor. I will do than straight away, right now, immediately, and see what it says.
Pierre3.
The last pictures are of the panel with the material removed. It is just a fibreglass surface, front and back, there is nothing to scrub off ! So, I am wondering, did the later P38's have a different type of material with a cloth-type backing, or has, perhaps, the material been replaced at some point.
I don't think that the material has been replaced because the surface of the fibreglass is just the same as it would have been when it was originally laid down. I have used fibreglass, many years ago, and I know what the raw surface looks like before it is finished for painting.
On the issue of the sunroof glass; It was working OK before I took out the glass panel. I didn't do any disconnections of the drive cables, I didn't do anything to the motor. I took the glass out by undoing the four screws that hold the glass in, took out the glass, resealed the seal and refitted the glass.
I thought that I had located the glass in about the correct position in the sunroof opening and tightened everything up. When I pressed the switch the glass rose up to the first position, but then just stopped and wouldn't reverse.
First thing - does the sunroof motor lock with the T-key ? I thought that I saw something somewhere that said if you use te T-key you have to use it to "relock" the motor.
Where does the BeCM get its' open/close position message from ? Is it from the motor or is there a switch of some sort in the glass track ?
Pierre3.
Just some general pictures:
New material backing;
New material front:
Old material backing:
Old material front;
Panel front pic 001:
Panel front pic 002:
Panel front pic 003:
Panel rear:
Panel rear edge:
Pierre3.
Hi, me again !!!
I have taken out the headlining panel, and it is looks a bit like the headlining may have been re-done previously. When I took off the old headlining there wasn't any foam rubber stuck to the panel, it pulled off just leaving a slightly sticky residue. I have the impression that when I spray adhesive onto the surface it will help by adding more "stickiness" to the panel.
The old material is a sort of velour type stuff with a flat, white material backing and a very thin layer of foam in between the front and back. Nothing at all like the roll of Oatmeal material that I received from Martrim.
I have one problem - I took out the sunroof glass to clean up the opening and reseal the glass seal, which all seemed to go OK, but when I refitted the glass and tested it for opening and closing it did the first upward rise but then wouldn't come back down. It just stayed locked open at the back.
I took the glass back out, just to check the cables etc. but everything was where it was before I started. I have had to use the key to close the roof, which it does perfectly well.
I can hear the motor clicking when I press the switch, and a message shows "Sunroof not set" [or whatever the usual message is].
When I took out the key I noticed that the display showed a message "Sunroof open" but it is closed with the key. What is happening here ?
One thing that I thought that I had read somewhere is that when using the key you have to turn it back until it locks or "clicks" or something. It was quite tight, using the key, to get the glass to move initially but now it runs backwards and forwards very easily, but I have not really tightened it up.
I used the key to manually put the glass in what seems to be the closed position and then adjusted the levels with the four screws that hold the glass in.
What anm I missing here ? I did everything with the battery still connected as it is on a trickle charger 24 hours a day.
Pierre3.
Hi, I have bought a recommended asdhesive, Tensorgrip T44 – Automotive Re-Trim Spray Adhesive. I had a long chat with the company that sells various types of adhesives, including Alpha AF 178 [the one that Woolies sell] but he has it only in 5 litre cans.
I have bought 4 cans of the spray-on Tensorgrip which the owner of the outlet says that they supply to a lot of car garages. Incidently, he actually supplies Woolies on occasions !
So, I am at the stage of have removed all the pillar trim pieces, all without incident using long metal trim tools. The only issue is that the drivers seat seatbelt adjuster cap cracked on one side, but is still in one piece.
I am going to drop the headlining tomorrow and get it cleaned up, ready for re-upholstering.
The only messy bit will be cleaning the top section of the tailgate seal. I had sqidged a bead of sealer into the seal and now I have to clean it of the seal and the body before refitting when I refit the headlining.
By the way, as mentioned earlier, there are indeed two fir tree clips holding the rear of the headlining panel and located under the rear pillar trim panels, one on each side of the headlining.
Donmac, many thanks for the offer of pics, by the way.
Pierre3.
Gilbert, I have been looking at various alternatives that are available in Ireland, and I see what you mean. As it is a contact adhesive it has to be sprayed onto both sides before laying down the material.
I think that I have a couple of alternative products, but unfortunately and like most items that are not on general sale, it is very difficult to find the correct products in Ireland ! I can't buy the Woolies Alpha AF178 [which they recommend] because they won't ship overseas. This is very common with a lot of inflammable type products. I had the same issue when I wanted a headlight repair kit called SprayMax - I had to try at least half-a-dozen stockists before I found one prepared to send a kit to me in Ireland.
I am going to ring around a few places tomorrow to check if the products that I have noted will do the job.
Pierre3.
I watched a video about redoing the headlining on a RR Classic [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SMsp50gIq3w ] and the guy sprayed only the panel with adhesive, and then seems to have enough time to align the roll of material on the panel until it was parallel on each side. It shows him pulling and lifting the material up off the panel without the material sticking too hard.
Is this how it is done, just spraying adhesive onto the panel, and then laying the material on top of the adhesive, and smoothing it out ?
Pierre3.
Hi, guys. Thanks a lot to everyone for getting back to me. The details are very much appreciated, so I thank all of you for replying.
I had forgotten the sunroof trim, I have that out already as I wanted to clean it. It looked like there were some grubby hand marks on it. I am pleased to say that it has come up like new.
I really appreciate the encouragement suggesting that the job is perhaps not too difficult. I have told my other half that she is to be my "willing apprentice", although I will need to be careful because I can be a bit short-tempered, and Madame is a bit of an Irish spitfire !!!!!
There is quite a possibility, in a month or so, that I will no longer be on the forum and there will be a P38 without a headlining for sale but a widow in Ireland !! Just saying ..................................
Pierre3.
Hi, I was thinking about taking down the roof panel today, to retrim the headlining.
I know that people have said to remove the A-pillar trim and the D-pillar trim [which I assume is the pillar beside the back doors, but do I need to remove the rear trim panels beside the upper rear glass door ?
If this is the case does that mean stripping out the boot panels that run under the rear side windows, behind the rear seats ? I have had these trim panel out before, when looking to sort out the usual rear door water leak into the spare wheel well.
It does look like there is quite a bit more disassembling than I expected.
If I am correct, having had a good look in the car I need to do the following:
[1] remove all the grab handles and surrounds [already done];
[2] remove all the reading lights [already done];
[3] remove the front courtesy light fitting [already done];
[4] remove the sunvisors [already done];
[5] remove the alarm sensor;
[6] remove the A-pillar trims;
[7] remove the D-pillar trims;
[8] remove the rear glass door side trims;
[9] drop down the front door seals;
[10 drop down the rear door seals;
[11] drop down the rear glass dor seal
[12] take out the roof panel.
I saw that it was mentioned at one point to remove 2x fir tree fasteners at the back of the roof panel but I don't have any fastenings in my headlining, unless they are under the headlining material. In which case, I don't see how I could possible put the back after the panel has been re-upholstered as any holes would be covered over.
Maybe someone could perhaps just tick off the items above to ensure that I have everything listed before I start, and before I find that there is something odd that I have missed, and will prevent me from removing the panel.
Pierre3.
Gilbert, I have just seen your PM, so not to worry, I think that I probably have enough information from the various post and threads on line.
Pierre3.
Hi Gilbert, thanks very much for your information, it is very informative.
As I mentioned I am not sure that I can justify the cost of the Nanocom. I don't really do a large amount of DIY on the actual motor, or the BCeM, and, to be honest, I am not sure that I would know what the information means anyway !!
I am happy enough doing the mechanical repair stuff, such as testing and replacing mechanical parts, but I am a bit old and stiff to be trying to dig into the innards of the engine and gearbox. I have the diesel motor, and it seems pretty good. I had the heater plugs changed about 6 months ago, but it runs cleanly.
The only issue that I have at the moment is the usual drooping headlining. In fact, I sent you a PM the other day about this. I was reading a post where you did a group day changing the headlining with another member, Morat. I was wondering whether you have any photo's of doing the job that you could email to me ? It was called "Summer Project" I think, from about two, maybe three years ago.
If you do have any detailed pictures my email is pjpjjones8@gmail.com
Pierre3.
Hi, I am just wondering whether an OBD reader tool, Autophix OM850, is any good for doing stuff on the P38. I am guessing that it is only a code reader as it costs around £80.
I can't really justify a Nanocomso I am interested in whether there is much point in something like this Autophix OM850 ?
Pierre3.
It's kind of interesting to see all the people who get a cut of the revenue from things like TV adverts. It probably explains why it costs thousands for a 10 second spot on telly.
I don't know how many people get a few shillings from a record played on the radio but the singer and the songwriter certainly do. At least, up until the record is 25 years old, after that I think that anyone is free to use the music for nothing. Not sure, but I think so, and it explains why a lot of 60's and 70's music gets used in product adverts.
I was going to write a song once but ............................................
Pierre3.
Have you noticed if there is a difference between the original material and that supplied by Martrim ?
Pierre3.
Donmacn, yeah - I know exactly what you mean. I have come across it too many times on other, supposedly, adult forums that I expected to be for grown-ups !!
Pierre3.
donmacn wrote:
I took mine out a couple of months ago - still out!
As David says, the post trims and door rubbers are the thing. There's a good video somewhere that I watched first - on one of the other forums, but accessible to non-members. It might have been landyzone... which I joined once, but left quickly because of the high proportion of (apparently) 5 year old contributors!
Anyway, the video is pretty good, and highlights leaving the rear pillar trims and clips in until last, to give you room to work; and I think fully reclining the front seats to allow the lining to lie down on top of them.
Even when it's completely loose, it's still not the easiest thing to get out of the back of the car. You'll need a fair bit of space behind the vehicle to pull it out.
Thanks for the advice.
One thing that I have noticed - the back of the existing, original headlining is a much more woven clothe type material than the small sample pieces that I have, as supplied by Martrim.
When I got a quote from a guy here he gave me a couple of different pieces. Looking at the back of them they are a foam material, whereas the original headlining seems to be almost a plastic backed cloth. I could see the adhesive being able to absorb into the Martrim material quite quickly.
I am only going on the section of original headlining material that is stuck to the sunshade, so it is possibly different than the material that is used on the main headliner panel.
I had hoped to leave the rear door seal alone having recently fitted a new one, with a small bead of RTV sealer on the inside of the door seal before fitting.
The only thing left in the headlining at the moment is the alarm sensor, just so that I could lock the car with the fob which, of course arms the alarm. I can lock with the key though, but does that also arm the alarm system ?
Pierre3.