?? Being selective ?? Please just read the links I provided, including #111
I am simply quoting what all the major pundits are saying and yet I have not, as yet, read one that anyone else has posted up on here stating specifically that PD is NOT ‘LOCATION’ and/or ‘ADDRESS’ & etc
It’s not up to me to prove they are it’s up to you to prove they are NOT ! (ie. Stop 'shooting the messenger' !)
Again it is more about invasion of privacy and how a person can be profiled by such data, that’s (partly) what the GDPR is there for 'obviously'
And, with respect Gilbertd you just answered your own question: A pub is a ‘service’ and (presumably) it wants to be found… if there were kids causing a nuisance outside the landlord can call the police………………… and pn that not, I’m calling the ICO !
?? Did you read #111 before replying Morat ?? Please feel free to share your opinions with them/ tell them they are wrong too !
Solicitors and Barristers ? Hilarious ! ( I have dealt with a few, and as you know they love this kind of ££nonsense/conflict)
Tell you what: Other than simply ridiculing what I wrote post up a few Official Links of your own to substantiate your theories: Prove It !
Not the patronising stuff about Whales and Google Maps; post up on here where a reputable body say PD is not as those Links I have
posted up numerous times now and I might begin to take some notice....
As for 'Online threats' ? Seriously ? You mean...... what (currently) constitutes Personal Data; I would advise you to tread carefully……! :-)
Finally I am not talking about 'Free' services in that way; You know how with SN "if you are NOT paying the YOU are the product"
HINT: If we ARE paying then we really should expect better than to have our privacy invaded by an idiot in a van etc....
For anyone requiring a quick summary here this might provide it:-
https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/personal-data/
RE: Vigin Hotel WifI...
https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/applications/wifi-solutions/virgin-wifi/public-wifi/
At leas we agree on that ! It probably depends on how their Consent Forms are (specifically) phrased Morat but I'll ask then too !
(Thanks for your input RR: No offence but we'll see what Weasel Words BT use and the ICO think about what happened to me:
GDPR is currently widely open to interpretation and as stated before the definition of Personal Data is very wide; I have actually
consulted on new EU Directives myself and it is interesting to see the current wide difference in interpretations between Companies and
Individuals/Customers' so I will wish her well with it !)
Sorry Morat, but I can’t allow you to keep being overly selective like this either, as that approach is now beginning to sound like a clear (and possible deliberate) misunderstanding of the Law (!).....
Lpgc 1) I have now posted up – several times – various links (and the GDPR text itself) stating how their Personal Data definitions clearly include both LOCATIONAL and ADDRESS information; Please contact the folks on those links (and the EU) and tell them just how they are ‘misleading people’ etc !
(As an aside here it may also help to call it Personal Data rather than just personal data in your responses to make the necessary disctinctions)
Lpgc 2) It you had followed his example yes he is/was referring to a Published List of Ferrari Owners who absolutely would be victims of a GDPR breach.
As already stated we will see how BT and the ICO view my ‘Legal’ Case and I will post that up here
You completely missed the point with Google Maps (and not just that like BT WiFi where I PAY for their ‘service’): It’s not a very good example but if somewhere hidden in the Google Ts&Cs it said ‘folks can park on your drive occasionally but it is OK you can park on theirs too…. (followed by “what’s that – you didn’t you see where we added that on our website etc ) I would be equally displeased.....
Now I am not sure what you do in ‘Real Life’ Morat – and I am not asking (it would be an intrusion of your Privacy) but you seem to have a very liberal opinion on what (currently) constitutes Personal Data; I would advise you to tread carefully……! :-)
One of the advantages of having revealled BT's WiFi disadvantages is (enraged) folks sending me numerous other examples, like Virgin proudly stating how in their " Free Hotel WiFi service " they 'Data Harvest' us too (albeit with our permission/consent); Moral ? Don't consent.....
" Customer analytics
Users register before they can access your WiFi – it’s a potential gold mine of data for your marketing.
Get their consent and you’ll get their dwell time, location analytics and user demographics too "
Sorry Lpgc I appreciate the input but it would be a long/repeated answer without providing even more suitable links...
Briefly then, for your examples 1) and 2) both could contravene the GDPR 'simply' by putting such data into the Public Domain without our consent.
As for consent itself the GDPR states it is a requirement to 'opt in'.... not 'sign us up' by default, pre-ticked boxes, hiding it away somewhere in the Ts&CS and it can't be assumed that we opted in because we did not actually 'opt out' etc etc.... and all regardless of what any of us may personally prefer !
Yes - if more people knew about all this they probably would not opt in; Thus BT would have to provide more Primary Hubs (as they already have established in Shopping Malls etc) instead...
No, I am really not concerned about 'popularity' here (particularly with BT!) but what I can tell you is that those BT BB Users I have told
1) Were almost always uniformed/unaware about this issue and 2) Were grateful !
As I have also stated the best way to find out for yourself is to explain it all to an 'identified' BT BB Customer;
You may be surprised by just how rapidly indignant they become !
With a few other cars I sympathsize guys: Possibly bad timing but I am thinking of trying this on my 'significant other' who 'doesn't understand'
With respect BrianH the 'best' option - at least for me - is (still) to 'encourage' BT NOT to impinge on Customers' privacy and welfare
(and not just mine) !
As already explained you can keep BT BB and disable the HotSpot and/or change the Router
My reply above does not actually 'reinforce what others have said': Please do read the information in the links I provided as LOCATION is part of the Personal Data definition of course: It is not just about the name of a person: It is getting a little irritating having to repeat these things as patently folks are not actually reading the links, just repeating their (possibly misguided) interpretations of the GDPR
BT state that in the light of the GDPR:
Key steps include:
• re-writing our main customer-facing privacy policies
• creating a system to allow tight management of data across systems
• introducing a new group-wide Privacy Impact Assessment tool so that we design privacy
into all of our products, service and ways of working
• appointment of a Group DPO
• updating our corporate customer and supplier contracts
• implementing an awareness plan across BT group
We’re confident that we’ve already taken the most important measures that most directly impact on
our customers’ rights and blah blah blah....
....the main point being (yet again) that by publishing Customers' Locational Data (without their specific Consent) is probably in breach of GDPR privacy principles.
I will return with whatever weasel words BT reply to this charge (other than 'tough you upgraded so we decided via new Ts&Cs that it was OK' !)
Additional:
Apologies if anyone thinks my responses rude//harsh but imagine how many BT BB WiFi/HotSpot Customers might be similarly unwittingly inconvenienced / harassed etc
Quick update on this: BT have just informed me that "if/when I renewed/changed my package then whatever (new) Ts&Cs were involved would then apply" (including, by implication but not specifically, MY LOCATION on THEIR MAP regardless of any anti-social effects): Really ? We'll see....
They also indicated that if you OPT OUT of their WiFi it then takes 7-28 days for your Hub to stop being a HotSpot !!
BT's Definition:
What is personal data?
Answer
The law tells us that it is any information relating to an ‘identified or identifiable natural person’ that
can be used to identify them; for example, a name, address, telephone number, or IP address
No need for a new sat nav. either, it's probably "just a fuse".... !!
and " has been diagnosed with a head gasket fault, I have not tried any of the chemical temporary repairs shop around on eBay there are head gasket and bolt kits for £82 or less if you know what your doing."
To be fair he has not tried K-seal (or worse) but as it is only hovering around £500 it might be tempting
......and I always enjoy this kind of stuff on e-bay; Basically "There is a problem I have been told it is probably just a cheap easy-to-replace sensor etc"
Ok, then 'quickly' change it / fix it and get more interest/higher price....(?)
We should compile a list of these for reference of course; My own favourite (although not P38) is "sills recently undersealed" = rust patches covered up
First a quick reminder chaps that I did not write BTs WiFi Contracts and/or the GDPR !
However briefly (and repeating myself here to an extent):
Lpgc: Yes, "free" hotspots is a dubious use of that word if you have to give up part of your Bandwidth to join....
Anything that impinges on you negatively as a Customer needs to be explained not imposed as a default...
When you sign up it does not ask you -specifically- if is OK to show your location on their maps either:
BT have imposed certain conditions retrospectively and without 'due notice' to Customers,. even by e-mail
(ie. They have quietly changed their Ts&Cs in a way that the GDPR would not have permitted 'back then' )
Yes, you can go to another ISP of course but you may then have a long-term contract/HotSpot situation;
Not entirely sure of this part but if you turn off the HotSpot facility then it can (possibly) be reinstated by a
(unrequested) software upgrade (downloaded by BT to your hub )
We're not in Court, that was your suggestion/scenario !
Sloth: Again GDPR is aimed at stopping Companies from compiling Profiles on you for nefarious purposes,
and that process may be a result of 'data harvesting' from several sources (as per the links I posted)
I have turned it off; And at least many neighbours appreciate/understand a quieter neighbourhood now !
(For the 3rd or 4th time) I was sensitised to all this because of the effect on another ill neighbour
From experience I would say that sadly many 'just don't get it' until it happens to them....
Probably 'a bit late' but note (4) ! :-
Well Morat it's your choice to bow out but you are being very selective there of course if in that last link it you are choosing to ignore where it clearly states GDPR Personal Data can be locational and physical address
" From your Fitzpatrick link I see nothing that supports your theory and nothing that contradicts mine " Really ? You are trained in Law for sure !
(Relax, it's a joke...)
Much of the above is banter of course but yes, I have already stripped back my posts and submitted it to BT (so far): Next stop, if their failure to reply persists and as previously stated, will be the ICO, who will decide if I am 'wrong' (not a Court, obviously, that's what the ICO is for of course)
We all know what BT will do (and that should not be allowed either); "We changed our Ts&Cs and then posted them up on our web site, didn't you see them ? (and similar platitudes) "
In fact I have taken on the Big Boys a couple of times in my own career and so don't actually need any free legal advice; Don't take it personally but _not _doing something about this is how they (continue to) get away with it, and is exactly why the GDPR were introduced in the first case and the same principles will be deliberated on for some time too !
Indeed, based on how badly it affected my neighbour enduring chemo I believe I should have done something about it sooner: Thanks to some of your remarks (banter or not) I now have; Will I 'win' ? Who knows ?!... but surely that's not the point.... ?
Ok ……
Under the GDPR (from that last lengthy paragraph I posted) clearly it is not just about the ‘Data’ itself it is about the potential/real effect/s of that ‘Data’ too. Thus I am going to post up another link (and hopefully this time it _will _be read/considered !):-
https://kirkpatrickprice.com/blog/what-is-gdpr-personal-data-and-who-is-a-gdpr-data-subject/
…. And it’s not actually my case it’s the GDPR’s Case !!
Accordingly if, as with my affected neighbour, BT have publically published data which caused his life to be impinged on, then that alone can be an infraction ..
(This is -most probably- why FON’s more-responsible maps are essentially a lower resolution than BT’s when you Zoom In on them… ?)
The major difference with an Estate Agent’s sign etc is that it is ‘material’ for them to do the job you paid them for: Sell your house; For BT BB their FON facility is not ‘material’ (to their service) in that same sense
BT BB customers are paying for this of course: It does not matter if it is ‘only’ 1mbps if most of them seem to be unaware of this. (Again just ask one and see for yourself !!)
And it’s not just BT’s (usual) bombastic stance that is driving me now, it is the notion that there may well be many others like my poorly Neighbour being (badly) affected….
Anyway…. thanks to everyone for their comments/banter etc; It has encouraged me to research/pursue this further and I will now definitely escalate this with the ICO (and report back): BT will probably continue to ignore me but they can’t really do that to them..
Ultimately it is not really our own interpretations that necessarily count here of course, but those of the presiding Regulatory Authorities……
So.... One last time (even though I am now starting to suspect Morat and Gilbertd work for BT):
……………………………………………………………………………………………
What is GDPR Personal Data?
In Article 4(1), GDPR specifically states that “personal data” means any information relating to an identified or identifiable natural person, which is someone who can be directly or indirectly identified. For further clarification, the law provides examples of personal data: a name, identification number, location data, physical address, email address, IP address, radio frequency identification tag, photograph, video, voice recording, biometric data (eye retina, fingerprint, etc.), or an online identifier of one or more factors specific to the physical, physiological, genetic, mental, economic, cultural, or social identity of a natural person.
I like your scenario there Lpgc - especially when the (BT) Expert Witness states "it's OK as long as you take the BT Router out" !
In the meantime Morat again the problem is that it may be a combination of certain types of data that constitutes an infraction as I posted a while back: GDPR 4(1)
https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/personal-data/
Similarly ME: "Well Mi'Lud, what about this part of the GDPR ? ":
(R 75) 'Risks to the rights and freedoms of natural persons'
The risk to the rights and freedoms of natural persons, of varying likelihood and severity, may result from personal data processing which could lead to physical, material or non-material damage, in particular: where the processing may give rise to discrimination, identity theft or fraud, financial loss, damage to the reputation, loss of confidentiality of personal data protected by professional secrecy, unauthorised reversal of pseudonymisation, or any other significant economic or social disadvantage; where data subjects might be deprived of their rights and freedoms or prevented from exercising control over their personal data; where personal data are processed which reveal racial or ethnic origin, political opinions, religion or philosophical beliefs, trade union membership, and the processing of genetic data, data concerning health or data concerning sex life or criminal convictions and offences or related security measures; where personal aspects are evaluated, in particular analysing or predicting aspects concerning performance at work, economic situation, health, personal preferences or interests, reliability or behaviour, location or movements, in order to create or use personal profiles; where personal data of vulnerable natural persons, in particular of children, are processed; or where processing involves a large amount of personal data and affects a large number of data subjects.
I rest my case !
Sorry for the delay in replying Morat but I still have not received a response form BT (of course): Not sure if that is because they are ‘concerned’ by my questions (and so are checking with their lawyers, which I very much doubt) or simply don’t care !
However I still maintain that publishing HotSpot data, detailed enough to identify individual properties (and without specific permission from those Hub Users) is close enough to a Personal Data infraction as to be covered by GDPR principles (and if not specifically it should be). I do take your point though that it might only be better appreciated by a Media Campaign, something along the lines of “ How WiFi Causes Ant-Social Behaviour “?! (and then perhaps BT would deploy an Opt In Clause ?)
Overall I suspect GDPR will need to be extended to deflect this kind of ‘presumed’ (blanket) permission’
One thing I noticed incidentally is that FON’s own maps (in contrast to BT’s) have a resolution limit of 20m “for privacy reasons”
(And also note that Spain do not permit any such maps for some reason…. or maybe Telefonica are just smarter than BT ?)
-Find you own location and ‘zoom in’. You will note FON have made it more difficult to locate individual HotSpots…….
EDIT: Forgot to comment on your Technical solution wrt HotSpot strength etc; Whilst this might be a good tool for BT I don't think it strengthens their legal case:
ie. "You can't get around privacy rules just by using a Third Party" !
Probably (if it is working Ok...) - depends on what made you change the O2 sensors (eg. was there an emissions issue/ Fault Code ?)
You are probably doing the right things but these MAF multi-plugs can be resistant to 'extraction.
However you are right as the sensor is a sealed unit and so spray cleaner has a very limited effect (unlike on the 'hot wire' type on your Astro)
Lpgc wrote:
If the public hotspots are explained in their terms and conditions are you not opting in by buying their service?
Use BT with a different router that doesn't feature a public hotspot?
1) That's the problem Lpgc, BT changed their OPT IN policy covertly (for new customers)
2) That's the solution I have been suggesting as per the TP-Link info I posted !
They just replied ... do you think that BT/FON are monitoring rr.pub now (?)
So, there we are: "Tough but you MUST accept it" Really ? I don't think so, I _will _now ask the ICO...
(I like how their typo mentions the Privacy "police", because that's the ICO too !)
The emboldened text is how I received it too; Yes, it's not their fault it is BT's (of course)
..........................................................................................................................................................................
_We have received your request to be informed about the hotspot location in the maps.
As a BT customer you must accept the BT's T&C and Privacy police were should reflect the usage of the personal data provided by the customer to BT at the time of registration.
The personal data provided to BT has a purpose and the responsible for these personal data is "BT" that should clarify that purpose as is not Fon who collect these personal data and we do not have access to BT purpose of processing user personal data.
_
.......................................................................................................................................................................................................................
Yes, guess what ? - Customers only read the (umpteen page) Ts&Cs once the problems start and their privacy is impinged upon....
