No Takers (yet); No problem !
Suffice it to say that when you go to the Street View (and with the little yellow chap)
on the BT WiFi HotSpot Map it shows his house number too.........................
This is a bit late (too) but FWIW here is a fairly brief description of the aims/intentions of the GDPR (and why it has 'put the wind up' numerous companies.....)::
https://www.welivesecurity.com/2017/03/24/gdpr-an-explainer/
...... Do feel free to spread it far and wide !!
-I also now have a (suitably-doctored) BT Map of my neighbours hotspot to post up on here (but won't myself as I would have to open an account with another nosy US-based Photo-Hosting site: If someone has posted photos on here please PM me your e-mail address and I will send it (unless this impinges on the GDPR. obviously !)
Ok then Lpgc/Brian/Chris, all fair points and I will try to answer the questions and summarise (and to an extent repeat) the situation in one post if that’s OK chaps:
General: The new GDPR and other related ‘rules/guidelines' (eg. PECR and ASA) which are aimed at stopping the Big Boys from treating us Peasants all like ‘commodities’ ( and/or numpties) have, one way or another, been infringed by BT.
Patently if we can all be inconvenienced by a Van man etc (and not know why) then something is ‘wrong’…
..
Specific: Folks on here are tech-savvy and so might say ‘so what’ ? Less tech-savvy BT BB neighbours are rather more incensed: As mentioned I am pursuing this with BT/ICO (and mainly for the neighbours now); From my ‘awareness’ campaign alone I suspect of the millions of ‘Free’ BT HotSpots maybe 2/3rds of them don’t know it means them ! What will happen next ? Perhaps specific OPT IN will be required or advised. Maybe 00000s have been unwittingly inconvenienced, maybe it is one of your own poorly neighbours ?
FON: Again, it may great to have a ‘shared service’ like this, but only as long as we know the Full Facts too, ie. BT can’t just hide it away in their Ts&Cs and say “So what ? “ !
What I have found out is that many using BT BB simply don’t like this (and without prompting from me come to some rather interesting conclusions eg. “Is that why BT have been trying to get me to upgrade and to a higher-power hub ?”
Personal: I really don’t like what some have posted up here (not you three !); When I start to be falsely accused of Online Threats and other nonsense then ‘something has gone wrong' there too I’m a Big Boy myself, expect better. but will/can ‘dish it back’ too: I really don’t care what “Fleecem&Leggit” have advised (Morat) either … but it’s still hilarious ! ..Similarly it is ‘disingenuous’ when I post up a link, not even my words and get unpleasant (and misinformed) abuse, surely that’s what rrs.net is for !?
Overall I suppose it is my fault for mentioning it; God forbid it might actually help someone !
Brian: Did not actually find out what SMS app. he was using, just that he had been there 30-40 times late at night, engine running using it (although my neighbours suspected he ‘was watching porn’ !)
Lpgc: A lot of this stuff is counter-intuative, yes: Seems like we have trusted the Big Boys too much though, and expect the likes of BT to ‘somehow be doing the right thing/s’ !?
Incidentally I did not see you last paragraph when I replied last night: ‘Knives and shooters?? Maybe you were watching The Sweeney: “ Look out Guv’nor hes’s got a WifFi !! ” ?
Chris; Yes, GDPR, is a massive topic and will continue to be so (but not on here ?)
A bit late - and also debateable - but if LR had been made to meet certain Directives/Regulations (eg. concerning EMC and Product Liabilites) early enough then we would all likely have had 3rd-Gen Receivers fitted (and for free) !!
Sorry Lpgc thanks for your considered input but it's only going to be a quick reply but Locational Data is essentially classed as an "Identifier" within the GDPR as in: https://gdpr-info.eu/art-4-gdpr/
... and yes, that's the point, it _could _be used with other types of personal data to build a 'profile' of folks (ie. like the SN so-and-sos have been doing for years......)
'Strava' were included as an example within that 'livingmap' article as to how/why detailed locational data could present (US) problems....
As you Zoom In(the resolution is too course for you to get much 'intrusive' information (unless you Log In and identify yourself);
FON is similar, BT's maps are IMHO far too detailed....
The man in the van was definitely using an SMS App. as there was a 'witness': (Nosy neighbour's son with binoculars; Seriously !!)
I may ask for my poorly neighbour's permission to post up his original FON Location (suitably disguised) so you can better see what
the hell I am talking (and most angry) about !
Interesting to see what happens as/when you Zoom In:-
https://www.strava.com/heatmap#12.00/-121.67282/38.17023/hot/all
A-ha ! I have just received this from someone who actually 'gets it' (and they sent it to me without any unnecessary insults attached, too...) !
https://www.livingmap.com/technology/location-matters-geospatial-information-under-gdpr/
Really can't argue with their conclusions....
"Conclusion: Understanding location matters
If there is one thing to take away from the examples above, it’s that personal location data is extremely valuable. GDPR will increase the pressure on organisations that process data (that’s most of them), improve security standards and create transparent communication about how and why data is used.
Greater understanding and transparency about different types of data and the consequences of its use is something both companies and users will benefit from in the long term. "
(Morat: HINT:
Please don't send them patronisng notes stating how "this shows how 'Understanding location doesn't matter' " or some such nonsense !?
Guys, Guys. Guys.... I never thought I would say this but I am beginning to understand just why TOAD simply repeats "Read RAVE"....
because folks don't (and he did not write RAVE either) !
Lpgc: See #68 (!!) onwards......
Sorry RR I have read the relevant parts GDPR, and posted up lots to substantiate my 'case' too.....
not just MY opinions and yet received manly criticism for it; Plus I don't care that much either:
Thank goodness other Fora etc have 'got it' - and without various insults ( not from you) !
Ok, one last go RR (as you really aren't going to read those links are you ?... but it is highly recommended)
There are two reasonably distinct issues here, what our personal data consists of and what Personal Data means according to the GDPR
Examples are tricky but on another Blog I frequent someone else also asked about Phone Books as in " Surely 'that would contravene GDPR then ?"
Well yes it would if folks popped by to use your phone occasionally (eg at 2am) and you had not been warned about this sufficiently and signed up for it (without it being explained properly or by default) but it was all in the lengthy small print at the back of the book. Ah yes, but then 'it says you can use their phone like that too'; That's fine, Your Choice:
Yes, many -once inconvenienced like this- would go ex-directory..... Their Choice... and so on...
The parallel here with BT FON is that many seem to have been Opted In by stealth, eg. via subtle on-line changes on their website...
IMHO Ts&Cs need to be in writing (and about now many I have alerted to this are requesting them...)
Yes; folks should read the Ts&Cs: GDPR aims to end this kind of thing as I explained in several posts now (or at least tried to);
Explicit Consent is required...
In summary I -and many others- had their Privacy (and possibly Safety) impinged upon by BT 'assuming' it was OK to show our Locations on their Map; Again for my poorly neighbour the harm/suffering caused was most probably also 'material' under GDPR Rules.
Have a good (quiet) weekend everyone, but do be careful just what you sign up for !
Well actually that was sarcasm followed by the 'charging for it' joke
Besides it isn't a Public Service since I (sensibly) opted out
But wait,.... we are paying for it, so why do they say it is FREE ??
/sarcasm off again
EDIT: Just Had a quick rumage around for official interpretations of PD that said NOT LOCATION and ADDRESS............ Happy Hunting !
What ? My BT FON HOTSPOT is a public service ?? Great - I'll reinstate it and start charging punters to use it today !
If there are any kid problems i can always turn it off - as it only takes 7-28 days to implement this....
(PS: Before someone starts BT specifically stops you from charging for 'their' FON 'Service' via your hub
it's hidden away in their On-Line Ts&Cs - if you missed it !)
No doubt anything the ICO say will be 'measured' and refer to specific parts of the GDPR
I am agreeing with the ICO's position on all this, regardless, in case you missed it !
In the meantime I am simply spreading the word about BT FON and what their 'free' really means.....
?? Being selective ?? Please just read the links I provided, including #111
I am simply quoting what all the major pundits are saying and yet I have not, as yet, read one that anyone else has posted up on here stating specifically that PD is NOT ‘LOCATION’ and/or ‘ADDRESS’ & etc
It’s not up to me to prove they are it’s up to you to prove they are NOT ! (ie. Stop 'shooting the messenger' !)
Again it is more about invasion of privacy and how a person can be profiled by such data, that’s (partly) what the GDPR is there for 'obviously'
And, with respect Gilbertd you just answered your own question: A pub is a ‘service’ and (presumably) it wants to be found… if there were kids causing a nuisance outside the landlord can call the police………………… and pn that not, I’m calling the ICO !
?? Did you read #111 before replying Morat ?? Please feel free to share your opinions with them/ tell them they are wrong too !
Solicitors and Barristers ? Hilarious ! ( I have dealt with a few, and as you know they love this kind of ££nonsense/conflict)
Tell you what: Other than simply ridiculing what I wrote post up a few Official Links of your own to substantiate your theories: Prove It !
Not the patronising stuff about Whales and Google Maps; post up on here where a reputable body say PD is not as those Links I have
posted up numerous times now and I might begin to take some notice....
As for 'Online threats' ? Seriously ? You mean...... what (currently) constitutes Personal Data; I would advise you to tread carefully……! :-)
Finally I am not talking about 'Free' services in that way; You know how with SN "if you are NOT paying the YOU are the product"
HINT: If we ARE paying then we really should expect better than to have our privacy invaded by an idiot in a van etc....
For anyone requiring a quick summary here this might provide it:-
https://www.gdpreu.org/the-regulation/key-concepts/personal-data/
RE: Vigin Hotel WifI...
https://www.virginmediabusiness.co.uk/applications/wifi-solutions/virgin-wifi/public-wifi/
At leas we agree on that ! It probably depends on how their Consent Forms are (specifically) phrased Morat but I'll ask then too !
(Thanks for your input RR: No offence but we'll see what Weasel Words BT use and the ICO think about what happened to me:
GDPR is currently widely open to interpretation and as stated before the definition of Personal Data is very wide; I have actually
consulted on new EU Directives myself and it is interesting to see the current wide difference in interpretations between Companies and
Individuals/Customers' so I will wish her well with it !)
Sorry Morat, but I can’t allow you to keep being overly selective like this either, as that approach is now beginning to sound like a clear (and possible deliberate) misunderstanding of the Law (!).....
Lpgc 1) I have now posted up – several times – various links (and the GDPR text itself) stating how their Personal Data definitions clearly include both LOCATIONAL and ADDRESS information; Please contact the folks on those links (and the EU) and tell them just how they are ‘misleading people’ etc !
(As an aside here it may also help to call it Personal Data rather than just personal data in your responses to make the necessary disctinctions)
Lpgc 2) It you had followed his example yes he is/was referring to a Published List of Ferrari Owners who absolutely would be victims of a GDPR breach.
As already stated we will see how BT and the ICO view my ‘Legal’ Case and I will post that up here
You completely missed the point with Google Maps (and not just that like BT WiFi where I PAY for their ‘service’): It’s not a very good example but if somewhere hidden in the Google Ts&Cs it said ‘folks can park on your drive occasionally but it is OK you can park on theirs too…. (followed by “what’s that – you didn’t you see where we added that on our website etc ) I would be equally displeased.....
Now I am not sure what you do in ‘Real Life’ Morat – and I am not asking (it would be an intrusion of your Privacy) but you seem to have a very liberal opinion on what (currently) constitutes Personal Data; I would advise you to tread carefully……! :-)
One of the advantages of having revealled BT's WiFi disadvantages is (enraged) folks sending me numerous other examples, like Virgin proudly stating how in their " Free Hotel WiFi service " they 'Data Harvest' us too (albeit with our permission/consent); Moral ? Don't consent.....
" Customer analytics
Users register before they can access your WiFi – it’s a potential gold mine of data for your marketing.
Get their consent and you’ll get their dwell time, location analytics and user demographics too "
Sorry Lpgc I appreciate the input but it would be a long/repeated answer without providing even more suitable links...
Briefly then, for your examples 1) and 2) both could contravene the GDPR 'simply' by putting such data into the Public Domain without our consent.
As for consent itself the GDPR states it is a requirement to 'opt in'.... not 'sign us up' by default, pre-ticked boxes, hiding it away somewhere in the Ts&CS and it can't be assumed that we opted in because we did not actually 'opt out' etc etc.... and all regardless of what any of us may personally prefer !
Yes - if more people knew about all this they probably would not opt in; Thus BT would have to provide more Primary Hubs (as they already have established in Shopping Malls etc) instead...
No, I am really not concerned about 'popularity' here (particularly with BT!) but what I can tell you is that those BT BB Users I have told
1) Were almost always uniformed/unaware about this issue and 2) Were grateful !
As I have also stated the best way to find out for yourself is to explain it all to an 'identified' BT BB Customer;
You may be surprised by just how rapidly indignant they become !
With a few other cars I sympathsize guys: Possibly bad timing but I am thinking of trying this on my 'significant other' who 'doesn't understand'
With respect BrianH the 'best' option - at least for me - is (still) to 'encourage' BT NOT to impinge on Customers' privacy and welfare
(and not just mine) !
As already explained you can keep BT BB and disable the HotSpot and/or change the Router
My reply above does not actually 'reinforce what others have said': Please do read the information in the links I provided as LOCATION is part of the Personal Data definition of course: It is not just about the name of a person: It is getting a little irritating having to repeat these things as patently folks are not actually reading the links, just repeating their (possibly misguided) interpretations of the GDPR
BT state that in the light of the GDPR:
Key steps include:
• re-writing our main customer-facing privacy policies
• creating a system to allow tight management of data across systems
• introducing a new group-wide Privacy Impact Assessment tool so that we design privacy
into all of our products, service and ways of working
• appointment of a Group DPO
• updating our corporate customer and supplier contracts
• implementing an awareness plan across BT group
We’re confident that we’ve already taken the most important measures that most directly impact on
our customers’ rights and blah blah blah....
....the main point being (yet again) that by publishing Customers' Locational Data (without their specific Consent) is probably in breach of GDPR privacy principles.
I will return with whatever weasel words BT reply to this charge (other than 'tough you upgraded so we decided via new Ts&Cs that it was OK' !)
Additional:
Apologies if anyone thinks my responses rude//harsh but imagine how many BT BB WiFi/HotSpot Customers might be similarly unwittingly inconvenienced / harassed etc
Quick update on this: BT have just informed me that "if/when I renewed/changed my package then whatever (new) Ts&Cs were involved would then apply" (including, by implication but not specifically, MY LOCATION on THEIR MAP regardless of any anti-social effects): Really ? We'll see....
They also indicated that if you OPT OUT of their WiFi it then takes 7-28 days for your Hub to stop being a HotSpot !!
BT's Definition:
What is personal data?
Answer
The law tells us that it is any information relating to an ‘identified or identifiable natural person’ that
can be used to identify them; for example, a name, address, telephone number, or IP address