I'm sure you've already done this but I'd simply tell them you can't. It's a fairly straightforward reason you have for not going!

It's only complex if they make it so. If they wanted to, they can make it simple and non-technical.

All they have to do is state what they did and why.

I can't think of reason they can't or won't - besides trying to hide their screw ups and/or incompetence. Perhaps they're hoping that if you go to them in person you're more likely to accept the story they give you and pay up.

I think they realise that if they write it down and send it to you you'll have the opportunity to share it more knowledgeable people.

I think you might be in for a rough ride sorting this with them :(

We've had the three haven't we?

A diesel issue caused by a "specialist".

A failed power steering pump and an exploded heater matrix.

A failed diff.

I'd say you're safe!

Mazz1 wrote:

Would like to query what has been done but do not want to end up arguing with them.

I would ask for a written estimate/proforma for the work done detailing all work down, as specifically as possible. What did they do and why did they do it etc.h

I'm a warranty claim admin for a truck dealership and my job day in, day out is writing up repair work in sufficient detail to justify the repairs so that the manufacturer pays out.

An example of what what I mean would be :

Connected to "name of diagnostic machine" and checked for errors.

Found error code "blah blah"

Checked so and so and whatsit for "suspected issue"

Found "specific issue" with the whatsit

Replaced faulty whatsit and test

Found fault still present

Check the doobery

Etc etc until the fault is found, backed up with evidence and documented to be fixed.

If they do this for you and are truthful you should be able to identify things they've done that haven't helped (and shouldn't have to pay for).

You can also show the work done so far to someone else that actually knows what they're doing and get their opinion and the work done so far. They might look at it and say "looks fair" or "what they're claiming here is impossible and they're lying" etc

Sounds like you're having quite a time of it :(

I can't offer much help with the actual problem with the car but I would say that you don't have to pay for anything you didn't ask them to do or authorise/give permission for. They're not allowed to go ahead start throwing your money at the problem in the hope you'll pay it all later.

I work at a truck dealership and, unfortunately, we seem to manage to do quote a lot of work without getting permission from the customer. The first thing the customer does is refuse to pay for it.

If they've sourced a very expensive refurbished pump for you and you didn't ask them to do so, don't let them try to charge you for it! Unless you agree to let them fit it and it fixes the issue.

I understand the frustration with having a broken car and don't think it's impatience wanting to get alternative transport :)

If I found myself without a car for any length of time it would definitely be me nuts. My life would pretty grind to a standstill. I couldn't get to work, take my toddler to activites etc.

These cars are very nice when working well but can make you want to shoot yourself when they're not. They need a good amount of knowledge specific to them and things quickly get out of hand when you go at them without it.

Unfortunately, a lot of professional mechanics/technicians believe they know what they're doing, go in unprepared and things like this happen :(

I do kinda think that these cars only make sense for people that are willing and/or capable of working on them themselves. I think there are very few people out there with the means to have them maintained and repaired by garages with the correct knowledge!

Those that have that kind of money tend to prefer driving something newer and much more expensive!

Please don't take that as me saying people that can't work on them themselves shouldn't have them, as I'm not (at least, I'm not trying to!) - just that I can see how it can get very expensive and frustrating not doing it yourself.

Another vote for the AA here.

When mine spat all it's coolant out through the front cover gasket they had someone out to me reasonably. They didn't have an actual AA van in the area so contacted the local Land Rover dealer who sent out their man in a van. The dealer was only 10 minutes up the road from where I was.

He wasn't able to fix it and I did end up being towed home which took quite a bit longer. It was the middle of the day on a Saturday so their trucks were fairly busy. I can't complain at the initial response time though and I was very impressed that they got someone else out to me when they knew they couldn't get there quickly themselves.

Any idea yet why you ended up with boiled feet? Sounds like the heater matrix or the pipes going in to it gave way. Shouldn't the pressure release in the header tank cap given in before matrix of the pipes?

Gilbertd wrote:

RutlandRover wrote:

Would using one channel to power three speakers not reduce the amount of power each speaker gets meaning you lose overall volume and/or quality from each speaker? IE: if you split a 45w (the power my Android headunit claims to output per channel, unsure if that's peak or RMS) channel to three speakers wouldn't you then only have 3x 15w speakers? This is the assumption I made that led me to wanting power to each of the speakers.

No, because you are spreading the power between the speakers so the amount of air they can shift will actually be greater than having one speaker, giving more volume not less. The output of the amp is the full range of frequencies but the largest speaker can't move fast enough to reproduce the higher frequencies so they get lost. Equally the tweeter only has a 1" cone so works beautifully with the high frequencies but can't cope with the bass. The midrange then deals with the bits in between. Now you can just rely on the fact that the speakers won't respond to frequencies they can't really handle but it can muddy the sound as they will still try to, so the high frequencies will damp the cone in the bass speaker. This is where a crossover comes in. It is a set of filters so you feed it with the full range and it splits it into the three ranges, bass, mid and high which are then fed to the individual speakers. The non DSP mid line system (fed directly from the head unit) uses capacitors in series with the midrange and tweeters to block the bass frequencies while the high line system with the separate door amps uses a single amp but with a built in crossover so the bass is fed to the bass speaker and the rest is fed to the midrange and tweeter with a capacitor in series with the tweeter to keep the lower frequencies out. So what you have is 4 amps, one for each channel (FL, FR, RL and RR) with inbuilt filters to split the output between the different speakers.

The DSP system does much the same only it is controlled by a data line (so while it is only fed with a 2 channel stereo input, the data tells it how much to send to the front and how much to send to the rear) and can also alter the sound to give different effects by putting minute delays in outputs to make the soundstage move and add preset equaliser settings.

For the sub you just have one further amp, sometimes mono to drive a single speaker, other times stereo to drive a pair (or a stereo input that is then combined to drive one speaker). Looking at example 2.2 that Clive linked to, they are using the original head unit, passing it through an attenuator, which may also convert between balanced and unbalanced signals. Unbalanced means one leg is grounded, so a 1V peak to peak signal would be between 0V and 1V, whereas the same 1V balanced signal would vary between -0.5V and +0.5V. From that they then feed a 6 way amp, almost certainly incorporating filters, to drive the 4 main channels and a stereo sub. Virtually identical to what Marty's 4 door amps substitute for the DSP amp solution does only it doesn't include the sub amp as that was separate in the first place. It'll work fine as a substitute for a dead DSP amp and retaining the original head unit but when you start feeding it with signals it wasn't intended to be fed with, then you are in uncharted territory.

I suspect the reason for your whine, although not the pops and crackles which as you say are down to your soldering skills, is because the outputs from your Android unit are unbalanced but the amps are expecting to see a balanced input. Careful experimentation with grounding is needed to sort that and possibly also some filtering on the supplies (I've got a few boxes of FX1588 ferrite cores if anyone can use them or even knows what they are...).

However, Chris still hasn't popped up and told us what he is trying to achieve......

Sorry for this, I feel like I'm still not fully understanding.

It sounds like you're saying that there's no downside to splitting one un-amped channel (not counting the amp internal to the head unit) to 3 speakers and that there's no need for an amp to increase the power since with 3 speakers there's more air being moved.

If this is the case, why does anyone ever use an amp at all and not just run as many speakers as they can from a single channel?

I suppose I'm equating the wattage of the channel to the horsepower/torque of an engine, speakers themselves to the weight of the car and the amp to something like a turbocharger.

With a car you can increase the payload by hooking up a trailer. Without increasing the power of the engine you lose performance and the car gets slower and/or you have to work the engine harder to maintain performance.

If you add a speaker to an un-amped channel you must lose some type of performance, right?

Hmm, I might start there with mine then!

Mine does seem to be a little bit intermittent. It seems happier when cold and gets lumpier as it warms up.

Lpgc wrote:

@RutlandRover Dave, there is room for a small type of wormdrive Jclip but they're fiddly and not usually necessary. The spring clips are good because they will self tighten if the rubber 'gives' a bit... Tighten a wormdrive clip to the extent the pipe won't come off even if the rubber gives a bit and eventually the pipe can snap at that point. There are other types of (tighter) spring clip but they're at least as fiddly as the small wormdrives. Or it is possible to fit the 'eared' spring clips I'll have fitted on yours but designed for 5mm id pipe rather than 6mm id pipe which makes them tighter.

I do like the eared spring clips you've used. They're nice and quick to fit and remove with just a pair of pliers!

Sloth wrote:

I have to say... I really like the quality of sound in mine - but it has door amps from factory. Marty's DSP amp replacement using door amps (I'm guessing what you've done Rutland) should sound just as good if the wiring is up to it.

Yeah, that's what I've done. I'm pretty sure the issues are from my wiring/soldering (in)ability. There a whine that increases with engine RPM. There's a constant crackle/white noise from the rear passenger side. I'm not sure if it's as far back as the sub or if it's the rear door. I feel like it's right back in the boot though. It seems to be related in some way to the lights. If I turn the lights on, it stops. If I brake, it stops. If I indicate, it stops and starts with the indicators.

All of the speakers drop out from time to time and it's a different one each time. They come back if I go over a bump in the road. The driver side tweeter crackles and there's a sound through one of the speakers like a spring pinging when I open a door.

When it's all working it does sound great though :P

Gilbertd wrote:

That, along with a sub output, is all you need. The DSP feeds the bass speaker on a separate feed to the mid range and tweeter but you could just parallel them up or run via a 2 or 3 way external crossover. So the FR output would be connected to all 3 speakers in the FR door. I suspect the DSP amp has the crossover built in so rather than it having 8 outputs, it still only has 4 but with the front feeds going via an internal crossover and giving a bass output and a mid/tweeter output from the same input. Having 3 separate speakers is no different, in fact preferable, to having a 3 way component speaker. Most cars these days run 3 speakers per channel so any head unit should be capable of powering them.

I'll admit that I don't much at all about how to wire car stereos. I have a feeling I might have asked my question the wrong way on the forum I used due to a lack of knowledge on my part. I asked specifically how to retain a separate bass, mid and tweeter in the front doors etc rather than how best to replace the set up and retain SOME KIND of bass, mid and tweeter.

I understand what you're saying about the DSP splitting the feed between multiple speakers but isn't the DSP is also an amplifier that outputs more power per channel than a headunit to achieve enough power at each individual speaker?

The question at the top of the thread was about removing the DSP amplifier, fitting a subwoofer with a dedicated amp and powering the speakers directly from the headunit (unless I've misunderstood the question).

Would using one channel to power three speakers not reduce the amount of power each speaker gets meaning you lose overall volume and/or quality from each speaker? IE: if you split a 45w (the power my Android headunit claims to output per channel, unsure if that's peak or RMS) channel to three speakers wouldn't you then only have 3x 15w speakers? This is the assumption I made that led me to wanting power to each of the speakers.

If you remove the DSP from the system and use 4x headunit outputs to power 10 speakers wouldn't you end up with underpowered speakers?

Again, I don't have a great understanding of this stuff so I could well be very wrong which would explain why I've seemingly come to the conclusion that it's difficult to do what I think needs doing :P

Gilbertd wrote:

RutlandRover wrote:
What we don't know is what you are trying to achieve (other than having window rattling bass). I know you've got the Android unit installed but you've retained your original Alpine head unit. Are you planning on retaining that or are you going to change that too?

I'm not looking to win any bass competitions or blow out my toddlers eardrums :P

I'd mainly like to just retain the audio quality of the original setup (or perhaps even improve it) but without the whines, crackles and drop outs that I have now.

I haven't retained the Alpine headunit. All I have is the Android headunit where the factory satnav used to sit.

You'd need something to power each of the speakers. No headunit will have enough outputs to power as many speakers as these cars has. Most headunits have 4 speaker outputs at most. FR, FL, RR and RL.

When I took my DSP out and replaced it with the door amps I had to run extra wires for the RR and RL feeds. It wasn't really any hardship - it's just four lengths of speaker wire too the boot. I also made up the attenuators to sort the signal from the headunit in to something the amps could use.

I'm getting a lot of whining noises, crackles and a bunch of other noises as well as various speakers dropping out at random. I recently asked on an audio forum about the best way to replace the whole lot with an aftermarket set up to eliminate these problems as I'm reasonably confident the issues lie with my fairly poor soldering skills. There's a lot of wiring connections involved in taking the DSP out and using door amps.

I asked how best to preserve all of the speakers in the car as I wanted to keep the separate tweeters etc. I was told to get an aftermarket DSP amp and power each speaker directly (cutting out the way the front tweeters are linked to the mid speaker).

Powering each speaker individually means you'd need 10 channels plus one for the sub. There would be three channels per front door (tweeter, mid and bass), two channels per back door (mid and bass) plus one channel for the sub.

Even keeping the tweeter and mid driver in the front doors linked means you'd still need an 8.1 channel amp. 8 channel DSP amps seem to start at £700 and go upwards from there: http://caraudiosecurity.com/amplifiers-eq-car-amplifiers-7-8-channel-amps

I quickly gave up on the idea.

The other suggestion was 3-way components in the front doors and 2-way components in the rear door and a 5 channel amp. The issue with this set up is, I think, finding a set of speakers that are all the right sizes for each of the mounting holes in the car. I think at least the tweeters in the front doors are a fairly unusual size.

Lpgc wrote:

@RutlandRover Dave, did the pipe just come off or did it come off during your manifold removal lol?

I can't be 100% sure since it's not visible with the manifold on. When I disconnected it from the injector end and blew down it there was no resistance at all and when I took the manifold off it wasn't attached - but again, can't be 100% sure I didn't dislodge it fully during removal.

When I put it back on it felt looser than the others as I was able to rotate it etc without any effort at all. I've been meaning to check if there's alternative fittings to the spring type clips that are holding the pipes on at the moment. I'm not sure there's room for a regular type hose clip that can screwed tighter.

Clive603 wrote:

Still can't see why it waited a day before leaking tho'.

Clive

It's because these cars are sentient and vindictive :P

I out a new top hose on mine and I only managed a couple of days before the next leak popped up. It was the water pump that time.

I fixed a water leak a the visit to Marty's earlier in the year. Rerouted some LPG pipes so they weren't bending so much.

I managed a whole 4 weeks from then before the next leak!

I think it's just a game of whack-a-mole. When you fix one leak the system is under slightly higher pressure until the next weakest link goes pop. Fix it, runs ok for a while, up pops another leaky mole and then it too gets a whack on the nose.

Mine did this earlier in the year.

Found that one of the pipes from the LPG injector had come loose at the manifold end and one of the LPG injectors wasn't firing.

The loose pipe was found by disconnecting it from the injector end and blowing down it. If it's loose you'll be able to blow through it easily. Had to take the intake manifold off to reconnect it.

The injector not firing was going by disconnecting the pipes from the injectors one by one with the engine running on LPG. If the injector is firing you'll hearing kind of clicking rapidly. Of there's no noise it's not firing.

I'm not sure why my injector wasn't firing. I spent a good amount of time of the phone with Simon (he did my install too) and I swapped the electrical connectors around but the fault stayed in the same injector. I then took the injector block apart and moved various components to different locations but the fault still stayed on the same one. The stripped the injector block again and checked for blockages but there wasn't one.

Left it for a while and ran it on petrol and when I had time to look at it again if found it was suddenly working. No idea why.

I might have another chance to find the issue as my slight misfire has come back very recently!

Hmm, thought so.

I've opened another folder for some other people to upload things to and they're being asked to log in.

Do you have a Microsoft account that you use for anything else (Hotmail/Outlook etc) that is set to auto-login?

I'll have to compare the folder settings again and see if I've missed anything.

Those if you that uploaded to the OneDrive link I posted, did you have to log in to do so?

Morat wrote:

He lives in Exton, I'm not sure what the village purity committee would think of muddy 4x4s :)

The people of Tixxover aren't too keen on them either. There's a pay and play site there that the Peterborough show uses each September. They have to warn people not to drive through Tixover itself to get there as it upsets the people that live there.

Morat wrote:

Once again - HUGE THANKS to Marty for sharing his knowledge, workshop, tools and generally being a very generous chap. Without you, The Duchess would be a wreck by now and I'd be sad.

Mine would be very sad too. When I was at Marty's earlier in the year he performed emergency surgery on mine as well.

I think we need to pool our resources and perfect human cloning in such a way that the new person retains the knowledge of the original. Marty is too valuable to the P38 world to be limited to one body :P

I do like my P38 (a LOT) but I know a couple of people that have now moved on to the L322. Each of them were die hard P38 fans that owned multiple P38s at once.

They both say that the L322 is better in every way and they wish they'd moved on years ago.

I've never been in an L322 and kinda don't want to based on their experiences. I know I can't afford one so I don't want to know what I'm missing!

The clunking doesn't happen when driving - only when I move the prop by hand when in neutral.

Very rarely I'll get a clunk when driving if I'm coasting and suddenly jab the throttle. I can't make it do it on purpose though, it really is a rare occurrence.

I don't think my UJ's have grease nipples but I planned on replacing them when I fit the new front axle I mentioned in another thread as part my plan to replace EVERYTHING and hope my noises go away :P

Lpgc wrote:

I'd much prefer an auto P38 over manual but might be different for a collector wanting something more unusual...?

Would think the auto better for off-roading, no clutch to burn out?

I'd go auto all day long. There's simply less that you need to be doing, letting you concentrate on steering and throttle/brakes. You won't stall when trying to get going in an awkward position either.

Auto also lets you creep forward without any throttle reducing the risk for spinning wheels and losing traction.

The cars in the second video I posted in my off roading thread (https://rangerovers.pub/topic/1428-went-off-roading-today) were almost all V8 and auto. There was only one manual vehicle there and it was also a diesel. Both factors drew surprised comments for how unusual they were for that application.