^^^ There's definitely merit in that Chris, I didn't set out to get engaged in an 'epic' - but the key word is 'sealed'.

I'm not 100% sure it would have been. It's apparent that the edge seal around the glass panel (the fabric/rubber and felt one that sits between the glass and the bodywork) was all that was holding the glass to the frame on three sides. The amount of rust between the two shows that a lot of water gets into that location and just sits there.

Given that I've found this with two now, I'd hazard a guess that many will be like that. And then we're back to Chris' advice ... leave it well alone! I'll know 'next time'..

Thanks guys,

The first one shattered I'm afraid, when I'd got it 85% free.... Leaving me with a rusty metal frame.

Second one (from a breaker) looked better at first, but as soon as the seal came off it was obvious that it was pretty much the same. I'd even be tempted to carefully cut the second frame off and use my original one, but unfortunately the second frame is stronger so I'd prefer to use it if I can.

Brian that tool you linked to looks pretty handy but whatever it is, the stuff is pretty hard. I think it would take some serious effort to pull the blade through. I hoped to get a clue about a solvent to try softening it up first.

I had also thought about heat - but as you say, I don't want to shatter another one!

I called it a day earlier when the blade slipped and put a gash in my thumb - through the glove. Looks like I'll just need to persevere - and keep my hands clear.

Oh dear,...
I removed the original sunroof to service/check the mechanisms, and wanted to renew the seal around the glass panel.

On three sides, the glass was no longer bonded to the frame - quite rusty on the metal frame. It was still bonded on the leading edge, and a pain to try and remove. So much so that I broke the glass. Not happy 🙁🙁.

Ordered a replacement, removed the seal and .... it's just the same. It's a real pain to try and get a blade in there. Probably do-able, but I think it will take a couple of hours.

So, does anyone know what the bonding agent is between the sunroof glass panel and its frame, and what the solvent might be? It looks rubber-ish. I tried putting a slice of it into acetone, and thinners and neither of those seem to make much impact on it.

Ta

Holland-and-Holland wrote:

After 15 years I'm still learning about my P38. I'd always presumed my bump stops were bolted on and had always dreaded the thought of the day of unscrewing a rusted, seized in bolt. Well that day finally came today when replacing my airbags for the second time during my ownership. I finally bit the built and attempted to remove one only to find they just push on, how simple.

Thank you! I've been in exactly the same position. Mine are there, though a bit crumbly, and I haven't touched them just in case it turns into a 'mare' of a job. Now I know!

It's funny - I noticed those A pillar threaded bosses just the other day, when taking the headlining down. It seems obvious that they would be for grab handles, and I also wondered if they could be repurposed for anything useful. No ideas have come to mind yet.

I would like to find a decent sunglasses holder that I could fit where the drivers/RH handle blanks are.

I was going to ask what it looks like from the other side - but the headlining is still in isn't it? Any chance you could take the interior edging away from the sunroof; carefully ease the headlining down in that corner; and shine a torch or mobile phone camera in there? Might give you a little more confidence if it might/not be leaking there?

The inside of my headling is clearly discoloured at the point of my windscreen leak, but looks pristine everywhere else - which gives me more confidence that I don't have a leaky sunroof (or should I say 'didn't before I took it apart).

If you could see rusty stains on the bottom of the sunroof frame; or any staining on the back of the headlining, you might get some pointers?

I would answer a definite 'yes' to that question. I have my roof lining out at the moment, and therefore all the side trims. I haven't yet run anything down the front drain tubes, but I have removed the grommets from the rear tubes/wheel arches.

They both had plenty of 'grot' in them. Probably not enough to stop them draining, but certainly enough to slow down the flow.

So I can see a situation where the grommets are a bit gunged up, and needing a weight of water in the drain tube to open them up - definitely.

Another day, another question!

Not much to report today really - I managed to get the sunroof panel out; cables out/greased/replaced and the various slides and moving parts greased. All seems fine really. I haven't tried it with power yet as the battery's still out, but I can't see any mechanical reason whatsover that the motor wouldn't operate it. Fuse was checked and OK.

Only small niggle today was the 'cable retaining cover' - this guy here:

It's almost inevitable... old plastic.... awkward to remove/refit = snap! There must be a knack to getting it back on, but it seems to me it needs to move in three planes simultaneously - along, in and down....

It's back on, and seems to be OK. Has anyone else been here and how did it go?

Apart from that, I'm going to wait until the new sunroof seal arrives before refitting. Calling the windscreen guy tomorrow.

Thanks guys,

Gd - I have been getting the 'sunroof not set' message, so the BECM does know it's there. I'm wondering if it's as simple as the motor being disconnected. I need to check the owner's manual but isn't there something about a 1/2 turn of the sunroof key to re-engage it?

On the interior light - it occurred to me that, depending on how the car was parked, perhaps any water leaking in through the unbonded windscreen could have run along inside the headlining and dripped onto the circuit board?? I'll get another one.

Leolito - I managed to get two of the seatbelt things off OK - 50% success rate! I haven't had a leaking tailgate seal so far. I think I'll put a bead of non-setting windscreen seal in there when I replace it, just to be sure, and I'll probably stick in the little tubes again.

I also wondered about the roof having no sound-deadening. I guess because the roof lining is a fibreglass/foam/fibreglass laminate they decided it wasn't needed? As it happens I have some deadening mat and foam left over from the Defender rebuild. I'll stick some of that on, definitely.

I've just been looking through the WSM sections on the sunroof mechanism/servicing. I think that's a good use of my time tomorrow - taking it to bits, greasing and re-assembly, to be as sure as I can be that there's not mechanical reason for it not to work. I'll also run something down the drain tubes to be sure they are clear and not leaking into the car - though there's absolutely no sign of it on the inside of the headlining.

On the headlining itself, SWMBO helped with the 3 sections of the Defender lining when we did that. With this experience behind her, she's not keen to tackle the RR lining.... I'll maybe phone round see if anyone's doing that locally. It would seem a shame to have it out, but not improve it before it goes back in.

^^^ Well, that was earlier.....

Not such a bad day really - managed to make a little progress, learn some stuff, and not break too many things.

This is where I got to in the last hour or so. The roof lining is dropped down, and nearly out of the car:

5 mins work would have that out - reconnect the battery - and the car would be mobile again.

And - yay, yay, and thrice times yay! - the sunroof works fine with the manual handle - all seems really smooth and easy.

So surely it won't take that much to make it run on the switch and motor again? I know the switch is good because I sent the panel to Marty for a 'refurb'.

I'll definitely get a new seal for the glass. Question #1 - will it be easier to grease and check it all out if I took the cassette out and put it on a bench, or just leave it in place??

I also learnt that the sunroof drains are all in place and would appear to be in good enough nick.

I've exposed the 'grommet' where the sunroof drain goes into the N/S/R wing - a bit of grot in there but I think it would still have worked OK - somewhat unimpressed by the OEM design right enough, assuming mine hasn't been messed with. The tube only goes about 15-20mm into the grommet. I'd have thought another 30mm on the tube would give a little more confidence. Pondering whether to just buy new drain tubes if they're available.

Breakages? There's a lot of old plastic to shift isn't there? I was pleasantly surprised to only break a couple of things. Two of the clips that go over the upper seat belt 'slider button'; and one of the spigots that clip a B pillar into the shell. There are two others of these broken I've found, but they weren't my doing.

And finally a couple more questions..... the underneath of the front light unit looks like this - with one of the tracks looking a bit worse for wear. I'm sure I could replace this easy enough - but ought I to be looking out for anything that might have caused this to melt/corrode? The wiring to the light looks fine:

Lastly, while removing the upper tailgate seal, I found a couple of little bits of hose inside the seal, somewhere around the bend or angle of the tailgate opening. .. (a bit chilly in the garage today!)

when the first one fell out I thought it was just a stray length of washer tube or something, but then there was a second one, in exactly the same place on the other side so it looks very deliberate. Any ideas?

I've read that this seal can allow leaks into the boot, so I wondered if it might be something to do with that; or possibly there to help or reinforce the seal at the bend, or at the lower edge of the upper tailgate if it's a place they go??

Mornng guys,

While I'm waiting for the world to reopen after the new year, so that I can get my windscreen rebonded, I'm going to go out to tinker for a few hours.

Plan for today is to remove the headlining so that I can check the sunroof drains, and maybe investigate why the sunroof won't work. I think there's something about the manual winder disconnecting the motor from the mechanism - and any pointers to that would be appreciated.

I'm also going to clean up the windscreen scuttle; check the drains etc. So the main reason for posting just now is to ask of there's anything useful I can do to the wiper motor linkage/mechanism while it's on the bench? It all works fine as far as I know, just wondering if there's any sensible maintenance I can do other than just cleaning and spraying on some grease in relevant spots?

Ta.

Thanks Gd,

Nope - I'm pretty convinced the HEVAC and the screen are original to the car, and the option of a heated one was just wishful thinking on my part as the snow and ice sets in. I'll keep it at the back of my mind as I dig deeper into the car in the months ahead, and if it's an easy fit if/when the time comes, for a switch and a couple of relays, then I'll consider it.

A/C would be another 'nice to have'.... it's fitted but doesn't work. Probably empty. But it's not at the top of the list for just now.

For the moment, I'll just be happy when I can use it again without the passenger having to use wellies!

Well, another interesting day.

In essence though, I've decided that I'm near 100% certain the windscreen on the car is original - it's certainly got the LR logo on it; the sealant bead around the screen is just too neat and perfect to be anything else but 'factory'; and most conclusively I got a really quick reply from LR customer services with a 'build sheet' for my car. As I expected, "no heated seats/windscreen".

I've also realised that what I thought was a heated screen switch on the HEVAC unit is actually the 'windscreen demist programme' button. Doh! Hey - it's got a windscreen icon on it!

Having taken all of the plenum/scuttle panels off, the plugs for the heated screen are there (two white plugs - left and right - on top of the pollen filter housing cover?) so I guess this means the wiring is likely to be there to the back of the HEVAC unit?? Maybe one day, if I feel the need it could be an option - perhaps if I ever need to replace the current screen courtesy of my insurance company. I looked at it very carefully, but there are no nicks or cracks and though I sometimes think I'm daft, I'm just not the kind of guy to take a stone to it on purpose.

So this is where I got to today:

I got the bottom windscreen trim off...... without breaking any of the X clips, which I was amazed and delighted about; and I've ordered a bunch of black, stainless self tappers for when I put it all back together again with sealant in all the relevant places.

So I don't feel that I'm a lot further forward to be honest, but for a few hours work today and yesterday I reckon I know for sure where (one!) of the leaks is coming from, and I have an oppurtunity to to a pre-emptive strike on all the other likely spots around the pollen filter housings.

Someone has been in before me, and the plenum foam filter has been replaced with a double layer of small wire mesh - but I can't understand why they didn't then do the little row of extra holes on either side?? I'll tackle that before I put it back together, as we back onto a forest so there's a dump of leaves and needles every year.

I also know that when the screen fitter comes round, all of the strip down is done for him, so it should be pretty straightforward.

Next thing will be to try and get the roof lining off to investigate the sunroof....

This is the picture I mentioned above. It's just something I lifted off the web somewhere because it was supposed to be a 'common P38 issue'. I don't actually think it will be that common because otherwise there would be loads of pics of this - and I could only find this one.

But anyway - just in case it helps.

This is just where the roof seam (under the trim strip) meets the windscreen aperture.

I have a picture of what I think Chris is talking about - but unfortunately because I'm on an older iPad just now, I can't put it onto imgur to upload here. Maybe later on the desktop.

Basically though, the longitudinal (front to rear) trims on both sides of the roof conceal a body weld. Where the welded panels fold down to the windscreen aperture, a hole can appear. I guess it could be the famour LR build tolerances. This hole is on the outside of the car.

I think you'd need the roofrail trims and windscreen top trim off to see it properly?

You might, or might not have this hole. I went looking for this precise thing on the passenger side yesterday as I thought it would be an easy fix. What I found was that my windscreen is no longer sealed to the car.

I'll be out soon excavating the driver's side and the scuttle panel....

Brian, thanks very much for that - like I said, I appreciate the help. My least cost option then is just to get the screen I have refitted. I'll try and get the scuttle panel off tomorrow and check the wiring. Once I know what's what, I'll speak to the fitters.

Thanks gents,

I have tried to email LR customer services - but who knows if/when I'd get a reply there relating to a 20 y/o vehicle.

Brian - I don't have microcat, so if you're willing to check out the VIN I'll very happily send over a pm.

I have retro fitted a heated screen to my Defender - and it has proved its worth more than once or twice - but even the heated screen was a fraction of what seems to be the cost for a heated P38 screen, so I'm not sure what my thoughts are to be honest. I could speak to my local fitters and see what price they come up with - but I will check the wiring first (if it exists) when I get the scuttle off.

Ta

Hi folks,

The car's been sitting in the garage drying out for a couple of weeks. We had a big dump of rain a while back, and when I came out to the car there was a huge puddle of water on the passenger footwell, and the roof lining in the front left corner was soaked. There was even a couple of drops of water on the outside of the passenger-side 'face-level' vent - as if it had been dripping down there from the roof lining above. Bummer.

So, with the battery disconnected, and the doors open, things have more or less dried out. With a couple of hours to spare this afternoon I thought I'd see if I could find the leak.

I'd read about a leak which can develop in the roof seam/weld just above the windscreen, so that was my 'target'. I took off the roof finishing strip on the passenger's side, and...... no real sign of a leak there.

Then, as you can see, I removed the windscreen side trim, and the upper windscreen finisher. There was nothing immediately obvious until I investigated the windscreen itself. Ahhh.... says I, closely followed by f**k.

The windscreen is no longer even vaguely attached to whatever sealant was used.

What you're looking at is actually the inside of the windscreen. I think it's possible this was leaking a bit!!

I wonder if, in use, the force of air against the screen is pressing it against the seal, so it doesn't leak much. Sitting stationary = lots of water...

So, on the plus side, I got this far without damaging anything except for a couple of the upper finishing strip clips, and I've found where the leak is most likely coming from.

On the downside I now have to decide what to do about this. At some stage I think the windscreen's been replaced as it's not a heated one, though I do have the heated screen button. I reckon this also meant the screws under the side trim were not nasty lumps of rust.

I'll now need to remove the windscreen plenum chamber to check if the heated wiring is (still?) in place, and perhaps when it's all stripped down to that level, maybe take it to the glazing guys and get them to bond it in.

Ho hum. At least I've found a leak, though that's not to say that there aren't others......

Edited just to ask.... is there any way to check for sure if the car should have a heated windscreen, of if this one is original? I've been deciphering my VIN no. and came up with something that looked like a build sheet. This said "no htd seats/screen" - which seems conclusive - but as I say, it does have the switch for one on the HEVAC panel. Would they have fitted the wiring and switch on the production line, and then fitted a non-heated screen??

Thanks as always.

Ah well..... come the 26th we'll go, overnight, from the Scottish tier 1 all the way up to tier 4. I'm not really disputing it though - it seems to me there's a proportion of people everywhere who just aren't playing by the rules, but 'twas ever thus.

Anyway, I wanted to echo the original sentiment of a merry christmas and happy new year, in whatever form that might be. I also wanted to thank one and all - and a few in particular - for all the advice and assistance freely offered throughout the year. A P38 is for life, not just for christmas!

So I do hope you all have a good one, and get some peace and relaxation. Or even in my mother tongue; Nollaig chridheil agus bliadhna mhath ùr!

That 'Saab in reverse' thing was standard in the UK market - at least on both of the old 900s we owned once. Nice cars those - they were built like tanks. My wife had a bump at upper town speeds in one when she was 6 months pregnant. Not her fault. The car was written off, but she was completely fine.