I like the concept behind this thread! I know I've had lots of these over the years with my various LR vehicles or others I've worked on - but unless it was 'yesterday' then I tend to try and push them away into the darker recesses of memory.

In general (more Defender-related) I've been really impressed by the lengths the designers went to to ensure maximum opportunties for aluminium vs steel catalytic corrosion, by sandwiching different metals together, in as many places as possible, and avoiding any form of physical barrier. Brilliant!

PS I'm not a great fan of the propshaft fixings either - even with the special tool.

Thanks for the replies guys, all good learning for me at the moment. For example, the idea of the cooler pipes leaking just hadn't occurred to me yet. Now I know it's something to look for.

In terms of seals wearing - I know mileage wouldn't be a definitive barrier to this, but the car has only done 78k miles. So I'd hope that it might be something 'easier' at this stage. I guess 20 y/o pipes could still age and leak....

If the pipes need replaced is that an easy job? From looking at the diagrams, they seem quite long and convoluted?

Thanks GD - I mainly asked because I have several standard, 35amp, 4-pin relays kicking about already. I can just swap one in easily enough.

However, just to better understand this overall - I believed that swapping relays had no 'down side', with the exception that there would be no diagnostics available.

Would pulling Fuse 44 deliver the same objective (no self-levelling) while still allowing diagnostics?

Thanks.

Just a quick little bump - does the 4 pin relay that replaces the timer need to have any particular rating? Will a standard 35amp do the job?

Mine settles overnight, I think because the RHR bag is leaking a little, and its normal parking spot is a little uneven. To help me diagnose this further I think I will swap out the timer relay for a few days to see what happens, but I did see one reference somewhere to a 40amp relay...?

Thanks muchly.

^^ thanks for that. I'll post when I get round to that.

These show the pollen filter - sealed scuttle, seal 'sealed', housing in place

Leaky looking gearbox sump...

The leak itself isn't small, and is 'red'. (and that's an earlier P38 leak below/left which I'd cleaned up previously)

Apart from the gearbox sump, there's a bit of 'red stuff' on the bellhousing. Any ideas about this?

Just as I edited the pic to highlight the drips, it occurred to me that I didn't touch the drips to see if they were oily or watery/coolant.... the stuff on the floor is definitely oil/ATF

Well, it has been pretty cold up here until recently. This weekend had a spring feel about it, so time to crack on!

I have some pics, but I'm doing this on the ipad, so that's beyond my tech know-how....

Over Xmas I had rebuilt the EAS valve block and tried to do the compressor. Valve block went Ok, the compressor was a previous 'refurb' one, and the grub screw which holds the piston in place had rounded. Got a good refurb ordered and fitted - but I hadn't run the car for weeks until yesterday, with the battery out and on a trickle charge.

Plugged in the battery, turned her on, and there were a few anxious moments waiting for the springs to fill - but dopey forgot all the doors need to be closed! Once I remembered that, up she came. Seems good.

After that I got the refurbed sunroof in. I think it's more or less OK, but maybe the new seal hasn't compressed enough yet. If the sunroof is tilted open, there's still a bit of effort involved in pulling it down flush with the roof - the seal seems just a bit big. It's a genuine LR seal, for whatever that's worth these days. But, worst case scenario, it fills the hole so I could still drive the car!

I also cleaned up the scuttle panel and sealed the pollen filter covers into place - I don't think they were leaking anyway, but they certainly won't be now!

Still haven't managed to find a windscreen guy to pull the screen off and reseal - and that's a pain, as it's holding other stuff up now.

Today, I drained the gearbox oil, pulled the sump off and replaced the filter, O rings and gasket. I haven't refilled it yet, I ran out of time, but we'll be good to go on that some time soon. While the car's been sitting there, it has leaked quite a bit. Some of it was around the sump drain plug, but there's more escaping around the front of the bellhousing. I have pics, but like I say, they'll need to wait till I'm on the desktop.

Got about 4.3L of ATF out of the box - that sound about right? Stone cold, and hadn't moved more than 10 yards in a month.

Hey - that's encouraging! I still haven't fitted my 'refurbed' sunroof back onto the car - it's just been too cold up here, but we've been above freezing for a few days, so maybe this weekend.

I can see that you looked at this thread anyway, but I think you've highlighted another example of the same sunroof/frame weakness. It might help someone else in future to tie them together.
https://rangerovers.pub/topic/2263-sunroof-woes-what-solvent?page=1#pid31556

I took some pictures as I was going along with the refurb but I've yet to bring the thread to a close.

Looking forward to being 'as dry as the Sahara' myself.

I've just fitted a new, genuine seal around mine (but it's been too damn cold to put it on the car yet.)

I think I follow what you're saying - that water would slip down between the seal and the body, when the roof is closed, and then run 'inboard' along the glass?

I think that's unlikely tbh. On the sides of the sunroof, a water drip would need to make its way past the sides of the frame bonded to the glass - it would drip onto the tray first. And, if the car was parked level, the water would be tyring to flow uphill.

On the front of the sunroof, there's a metal strengthening bar - I think it would do the same as the side frame - force any water to drip down into the tray.

The only place I can maybe see it is at the back, where the bonded frame is at its thinnest, but even then, there's quite a curve on the glass, and I think it's more likely the water would run down to the sides.

I'm guessing, but I think if you put anything else into the seal, it might make the motor work harder to seat the sunroof, maybe stressing another part of the assembly?

Is this a problem that's got worse recently? If so, given the temps it is more likely to be condensation.

Hi Gd - the information I have from the V5s is that the first owner was in Ripon; 2nd in Durham; and I'm the 3rd. Not to say they didn't keep the car by the marina, or the 2nd cottage in Cornwall, but I don't think so. I suspect the underside rust is just from being that little bit further north = roads salted more often. Though again, at ca 72k when I got it, it hasn't seen as many miles as others.

The fact that my original sunroof, and the one that came from the breaker were exactly the same suggests to me that this is just a more generic issue

Harv, I reckon it's thin metal, with only minimal protection. Then, if you imagine driving along a main road here during the 'salty roads' season, you'll be driving through a cloud of salty spray. Some of this must make it onto the sunroof, and underneath the seal, where it doesn't drain well.

Added to that, it's probably a little warmer up there sometimes, either sunshine, or heat from the car. So I reckon there's a pretty toxic combination of factors contributing to this.

I suppose, if it's repainted, and I put a bead of mastic inside the new seal, that mine should now be good for another 5 or 10 years and that ought to be enough.

Just to close this off....

RIP Old sunroof - sorry I brought you to this:

Back to the 'new one' - I tried heat on the back of the frame, and it only made a marginal difference if any in terms of softening the bonding. But to be honest I was probably too gentle with it - I didn't want another glass to split into tiny cubes.

So I was still at it, hacking away, a millimetre at a time and getting frustrated and shouty. My wife upstairs heard me, came down and we both had a go at it. I was still getting grumpy, so I was banished to the outside garage. 20 minutes later she came out with a sunroof frame...!

It turns out, where I was thinking about what suitable things I might have in my toolbox - she was thinking 'kitchen implements' and did the job with a bread knife and an old carving knife..... So you can have heat, and solvents, but "Mk 1 Wife" is the thing to use..!!

Two frames, one sunroof:

Having had the difficult bit done for me, this is what's exposed - you can see why the glass and the frame parted company.

The adhesive was still very firmly attached to the glass, but only bonded to rust around the frame. I think the only reason the leading edge was still attached so strongly is that the strengthening channel on the leading edge doesn't rust, and the bonding sticks to that really strongly.

Ho hum - brushed down and painted with the rust converter. Painted tomorrow.

Having done all this, I'll bond and clamp it and hope for the best - but I think Chris is right when he says if it isn't leaking, don't go here.

Thanks Dave,

I'm still drinking my coffee and googling for solutions. Seems like the rusty sunroof frame/glass bonding issue is quite a common issue in many older cars. Found it on Fiat and old Rover forums amongst others.

Heat has been used to split them apparently. I've no worries about acetone or meths affecting paintwork or whatever as the glass is off the car, and in my downstairs 'workshop'

I did find our very own Marty talking about this issue on 'the other side'. He said he'd split the assembly into its component parts and repaired it.

So current plan is to try the heat gun and some plastic wedges... wish me luck!

^^^ There's definitely merit in that Chris, I didn't set out to get engaged in an 'epic' - but the key word is 'sealed'.

I'm not 100% sure it would have been. It's apparent that the edge seal around the glass panel (the fabric/rubber and felt one that sits between the glass and the bodywork) was all that was holding the glass to the frame on three sides. The amount of rust between the two shows that a lot of water gets into that location and just sits there.

Given that I've found this with two now, I'd hazard a guess that many will be like that. And then we're back to Chris' advice ... leave it well alone! I'll know 'next time'..

Thanks guys,

The first one shattered I'm afraid, when I'd got it 85% free.... Leaving me with a rusty metal frame.

Second one (from a breaker) looked better at first, but as soon as the seal came off it was obvious that it was pretty much the same. I'd even be tempted to carefully cut the second frame off and use my original one, but unfortunately the second frame is stronger so I'd prefer to use it if I can.

Brian that tool you linked to looks pretty handy but whatever it is, the stuff is pretty hard. I think it would take some serious effort to pull the blade through. I hoped to get a clue about a solvent to try softening it up first.

I had also thought about heat - but as you say, I don't want to shatter another one!

I called it a day earlier when the blade slipped and put a gash in my thumb - through the glove. Looks like I'll just need to persevere - and keep my hands clear.

Oh dear,...
I removed the original sunroof to service/check the mechanisms, and wanted to renew the seal around the glass panel.

On three sides, the glass was no longer bonded to the frame - quite rusty on the metal frame. It was still bonded on the leading edge, and a pain to try and remove. So much so that I broke the glass. Not happy 🙁🙁.

Ordered a replacement, removed the seal and .... it's just the same. It's a real pain to try and get a blade in there. Probably do-able, but I think it will take a couple of hours.

So, does anyone know what the bonding agent is between the sunroof glass panel and its frame, and what the solvent might be? It looks rubber-ish. I tried putting a slice of it into acetone, and thinners and neither of those seem to make much impact on it.

Ta

Holland-and-Holland wrote:

After 15 years I'm still learning about my P38. I'd always presumed my bump stops were bolted on and had always dreaded the thought of the day of unscrewing a rusted, seized in bolt. Well that day finally came today when replacing my airbags for the second time during my ownership. I finally bit the built and attempted to remove one only to find they just push on, how simple.

Thank you! I've been in exactly the same position. Mine are there, though a bit crumbly, and I haven't touched them just in case it turns into a 'mare' of a job. Now I know!

It's funny - I noticed those A pillar threaded bosses just the other day, when taking the headlining down. It seems obvious that they would be for grab handles, and I also wondered if they could be repurposed for anything useful. No ideas have come to mind yet.

I would like to find a decent sunglasses holder that I could fit where the drivers/RH handle blanks are.

I was going to ask what it looks like from the other side - but the headlining is still in isn't it? Any chance you could take the interior edging away from the sunroof; carefully ease the headlining down in that corner; and shine a torch or mobile phone camera in there? Might give you a little more confidence if it might/not be leaking there?

The inside of my headling is clearly discoloured at the point of my windscreen leak, but looks pristine everywhere else - which gives me more confidence that I don't have a leaky sunroof (or should I say 'didn't before I took it apart).

If you could see rusty stains on the bottom of the sunroof frame; or any staining on the back of the headlining, you might get some pointers?

I would answer a definite 'yes' to that question. I have my roof lining out at the moment, and therefore all the side trims. I haven't yet run anything down the front drain tubes, but I have removed the grommets from the rear tubes/wheel arches.

They both had plenty of 'grot' in them. Probably not enough to stop them draining, but certainly enough to slow down the flow.

So I can see a situation where the grommets are a bit gunged up, and needing a weight of water in the drain tube to open them up - definitely.

Another day, another question!

Not much to report today really - I managed to get the sunroof panel out; cables out/greased/replaced and the various slides and moving parts greased. All seems fine really. I haven't tried it with power yet as the battery's still out, but I can't see any mechanical reason whatsover that the motor wouldn't operate it. Fuse was checked and OK.

Only small niggle today was the 'cable retaining cover' - this guy here:

It's almost inevitable... old plastic.... awkward to remove/refit = snap! There must be a knack to getting it back on, but it seems to me it needs to move in three planes simultaneously - along, in and down....

It's back on, and seems to be OK. Has anyone else been here and how did it go?

Apart from that, I'm going to wait until the new sunroof seal arrives before refitting. Calling the windscreen guy tomorrow.