I've just fitted a new, genuine seal around mine (but it's been too damn cold to put it on the car yet.)

I think I follow what you're saying - that water would slip down between the seal and the body, when the roof is closed, and then run 'inboard' along the glass?

I think that's unlikely tbh. On the sides of the sunroof, a water drip would need to make its way past the sides of the frame bonded to the glass - it would drip onto the tray first. And, if the car was parked level, the water would be tyring to flow uphill.

On the front of the sunroof, there's a metal strengthening bar - I think it would do the same as the side frame - force any water to drip down into the tray.

The only place I can maybe see it is at the back, where the bonded frame is at its thinnest, but even then, there's quite a curve on the glass, and I think it's more likely the water would run down to the sides.

I'm guessing, but I think if you put anything else into the seal, it might make the motor work harder to seat the sunroof, maybe stressing another part of the assembly?

Is this a problem that's got worse recently? If so, given the temps it is more likely to be condensation.

Hi Gd - the information I have from the V5s is that the first owner was in Ripon; 2nd in Durham; and I'm the 3rd. Not to say they didn't keep the car by the marina, or the 2nd cottage in Cornwall, but I don't think so. I suspect the underside rust is just from being that little bit further north = roads salted more often. Though again, at ca 72k when I got it, it hasn't seen as many miles as others.

The fact that my original sunroof, and the one that came from the breaker were exactly the same suggests to me that this is just a more generic issue

Harv, I reckon it's thin metal, with only minimal protection. Then, if you imagine driving along a main road here during the 'salty roads' season, you'll be driving through a cloud of salty spray. Some of this must make it onto the sunroof, and underneath the seal, where it doesn't drain well.

Added to that, it's probably a little warmer up there sometimes, either sunshine, or heat from the car. So I reckon there's a pretty toxic combination of factors contributing to this.

I suppose, if it's repainted, and I put a bead of mastic inside the new seal, that mine should now be good for another 5 or 10 years and that ought to be enough.

Just to close this off....

RIP Old sunroof - sorry I brought you to this:

Back to the 'new one' - I tried heat on the back of the frame, and it only made a marginal difference if any in terms of softening the bonding. But to be honest I was probably too gentle with it - I didn't want another glass to split into tiny cubes.

So I was still at it, hacking away, a millimetre at a time and getting frustrated and shouty. My wife upstairs heard me, came down and we both had a go at it. I was still getting grumpy, so I was banished to the outside garage. 20 minutes later she came out with a sunroof frame...!

It turns out, where I was thinking about what suitable things I might have in my toolbox - she was thinking 'kitchen implements' and did the job with a bread knife and an old carving knife..... So you can have heat, and solvents, but "Mk 1 Wife" is the thing to use..!!

Two frames, one sunroof:

Having had the difficult bit done for me, this is what's exposed - you can see why the glass and the frame parted company.

The adhesive was still very firmly attached to the glass, but only bonded to rust around the frame. I think the only reason the leading edge was still attached so strongly is that the strengthening channel on the leading edge doesn't rust, and the bonding sticks to that really strongly.

Ho hum - brushed down and painted with the rust converter. Painted tomorrow.

Having done all this, I'll bond and clamp it and hope for the best - but I think Chris is right when he says if it isn't leaking, don't go here.

Thanks Dave,

I'm still drinking my coffee and googling for solutions. Seems like the rusty sunroof frame/glass bonding issue is quite a common issue in many older cars. Found it on Fiat and old Rover forums amongst others.

Heat has been used to split them apparently. I've no worries about acetone or meths affecting paintwork or whatever as the glass is off the car, and in my downstairs 'workshop'

I did find our very own Marty talking about this issue on 'the other side'. He said he'd split the assembly into its component parts and repaired it.

So current plan is to try the heat gun and some plastic wedges... wish me luck!

^^^ There's definitely merit in that Chris, I didn't set out to get engaged in an 'epic' - but the key word is 'sealed'.

I'm not 100% sure it would have been. It's apparent that the edge seal around the glass panel (the fabric/rubber and felt one that sits between the glass and the bodywork) was all that was holding the glass to the frame on three sides. The amount of rust between the two shows that a lot of water gets into that location and just sits there.

Given that I've found this with two now, I'd hazard a guess that many will be like that. And then we're back to Chris' advice ... leave it well alone! I'll know 'next time'..

Thanks guys,

The first one shattered I'm afraid, when I'd got it 85% free.... Leaving me with a rusty metal frame.

Second one (from a breaker) looked better at first, but as soon as the seal came off it was obvious that it was pretty much the same. I'd even be tempted to carefully cut the second frame off and use my original one, but unfortunately the second frame is stronger so I'd prefer to use it if I can.

Brian that tool you linked to looks pretty handy but whatever it is, the stuff is pretty hard. I think it would take some serious effort to pull the blade through. I hoped to get a clue about a solvent to try softening it up first.

I had also thought about heat - but as you say, I don't want to shatter another one!

I called it a day earlier when the blade slipped and put a gash in my thumb - through the glove. Looks like I'll just need to persevere - and keep my hands clear.

Oh dear,...
I removed the original sunroof to service/check the mechanisms, and wanted to renew the seal around the glass panel.

On three sides, the glass was no longer bonded to the frame - quite rusty on the metal frame. It was still bonded on the leading edge, and a pain to try and remove. So much so that I broke the glass. Not happy 🙁🙁.

Ordered a replacement, removed the seal and .... it's just the same. It's a real pain to try and get a blade in there. Probably do-able, but I think it will take a couple of hours.

So, does anyone know what the bonding agent is between the sunroof glass panel and its frame, and what the solvent might be? It looks rubber-ish. I tried putting a slice of it into acetone, and thinners and neither of those seem to make much impact on it.

Ta

Holland-and-Holland wrote:

After 15 years I'm still learning about my P38. I'd always presumed my bump stops were bolted on and had always dreaded the thought of the day of unscrewing a rusted, seized in bolt. Well that day finally came today when replacing my airbags for the second time during my ownership. I finally bit the built and attempted to remove one only to find they just push on, how simple.

Thank you! I've been in exactly the same position. Mine are there, though a bit crumbly, and I haven't touched them just in case it turns into a 'mare' of a job. Now I know!

It's funny - I noticed those A pillar threaded bosses just the other day, when taking the headlining down. It seems obvious that they would be for grab handles, and I also wondered if they could be repurposed for anything useful. No ideas have come to mind yet.

I would like to find a decent sunglasses holder that I could fit where the drivers/RH handle blanks are.

I was going to ask what it looks like from the other side - but the headlining is still in isn't it? Any chance you could take the interior edging away from the sunroof; carefully ease the headlining down in that corner; and shine a torch or mobile phone camera in there? Might give you a little more confidence if it might/not be leaking there?

The inside of my headling is clearly discoloured at the point of my windscreen leak, but looks pristine everywhere else - which gives me more confidence that I don't have a leaky sunroof (or should I say 'didn't before I took it apart).

If you could see rusty stains on the bottom of the sunroof frame; or any staining on the back of the headlining, you might get some pointers?

I would answer a definite 'yes' to that question. I have my roof lining out at the moment, and therefore all the side trims. I haven't yet run anything down the front drain tubes, but I have removed the grommets from the rear tubes/wheel arches.

They both had plenty of 'grot' in them. Probably not enough to stop them draining, but certainly enough to slow down the flow.

So I can see a situation where the grommets are a bit gunged up, and needing a weight of water in the drain tube to open them up - definitely.

Another day, another question!

Not much to report today really - I managed to get the sunroof panel out; cables out/greased/replaced and the various slides and moving parts greased. All seems fine really. I haven't tried it with power yet as the battery's still out, but I can't see any mechanical reason whatsover that the motor wouldn't operate it. Fuse was checked and OK.

Only small niggle today was the 'cable retaining cover' - this guy here:

It's almost inevitable... old plastic.... awkward to remove/refit = snap! There must be a knack to getting it back on, but it seems to me it needs to move in three planes simultaneously - along, in and down....

It's back on, and seems to be OK. Has anyone else been here and how did it go?

Apart from that, I'm going to wait until the new sunroof seal arrives before refitting. Calling the windscreen guy tomorrow.

Thanks guys,

Gd - I have been getting the 'sunroof not set' message, so the BECM does know it's there. I'm wondering if it's as simple as the motor being disconnected. I need to check the owner's manual but isn't there something about a 1/2 turn of the sunroof key to re-engage it?

On the interior light - it occurred to me that, depending on how the car was parked, perhaps any water leaking in through the unbonded windscreen could have run along inside the headlining and dripped onto the circuit board?? I'll get another one.

Leolito - I managed to get two of the seatbelt things off OK - 50% success rate! I haven't had a leaking tailgate seal so far. I think I'll put a bead of non-setting windscreen seal in there when I replace it, just to be sure, and I'll probably stick in the little tubes again.

I also wondered about the roof having no sound-deadening. I guess because the roof lining is a fibreglass/foam/fibreglass laminate they decided it wasn't needed? As it happens I have some deadening mat and foam left over from the Defender rebuild. I'll stick some of that on, definitely.

I've just been looking through the WSM sections on the sunroof mechanism/servicing. I think that's a good use of my time tomorrow - taking it to bits, greasing and re-assembly, to be as sure as I can be that there's not mechanical reason for it not to work. I'll also run something down the drain tubes to be sure they are clear and not leaking into the car - though there's absolutely no sign of it on the inside of the headlining.

On the headlining itself, SWMBO helped with the 3 sections of the Defender lining when we did that. With this experience behind her, she's not keen to tackle the RR lining.... I'll maybe phone round see if anyone's doing that locally. It would seem a shame to have it out, but not improve it before it goes back in.

^^^ Well, that was earlier.....

Not such a bad day really - managed to make a little progress, learn some stuff, and not break too many things.

This is where I got to in the last hour or so. The roof lining is dropped down, and nearly out of the car:

5 mins work would have that out - reconnect the battery - and the car would be mobile again.

And - yay, yay, and thrice times yay! - the sunroof works fine with the manual handle - all seems really smooth and easy.

So surely it won't take that much to make it run on the switch and motor again? I know the switch is good because I sent the panel to Marty for a 'refurb'.

I'll definitely get a new seal for the glass. Question #1 - will it be easier to grease and check it all out if I took the cassette out and put it on a bench, or just leave it in place??

I also learnt that the sunroof drains are all in place and would appear to be in good enough nick.

I've exposed the 'grommet' where the sunroof drain goes into the N/S/R wing - a bit of grot in there but I think it would still have worked OK - somewhat unimpressed by the OEM design right enough, assuming mine hasn't been messed with. The tube only goes about 15-20mm into the grommet. I'd have thought another 30mm on the tube would give a little more confidence. Pondering whether to just buy new drain tubes if they're available.

Breakages? There's a lot of old plastic to shift isn't there? I was pleasantly surprised to only break a couple of things. Two of the clips that go over the upper seat belt 'slider button'; and one of the spigots that clip a B pillar into the shell. There are two others of these broken I've found, but they weren't my doing.

And finally a couple more questions..... the underneath of the front light unit looks like this - with one of the tracks looking a bit worse for wear. I'm sure I could replace this easy enough - but ought I to be looking out for anything that might have caused this to melt/corrode? The wiring to the light looks fine:

Lastly, while removing the upper tailgate seal, I found a couple of little bits of hose inside the seal, somewhere around the bend or angle of the tailgate opening. .. (a bit chilly in the garage today!)

when the first one fell out I thought it was just a stray length of washer tube or something, but then there was a second one, in exactly the same place on the other side so it looks very deliberate. Any ideas?

I've read that this seal can allow leaks into the boot, so I wondered if it might be something to do with that; or possibly there to help or reinforce the seal at the bend, or at the lower edge of the upper tailgate if it's a place they go??

Mornng guys,

While I'm waiting for the world to reopen after the new year, so that I can get my windscreen rebonded, I'm going to go out to tinker for a few hours.

Plan for today is to remove the headlining so that I can check the sunroof drains, and maybe investigate why the sunroof won't work. I think there's something about the manual winder disconnecting the motor from the mechanism - and any pointers to that would be appreciated.

I'm also going to clean up the windscreen scuttle; check the drains etc. So the main reason for posting just now is to ask of there's anything useful I can do to the wiper motor linkage/mechanism while it's on the bench? It all works fine as far as I know, just wondering if there's any sensible maintenance I can do other than just cleaning and spraying on some grease in relevant spots?

Ta.

Thanks Gd,

Nope - I'm pretty convinced the HEVAC and the screen are original to the car, and the option of a heated one was just wishful thinking on my part as the snow and ice sets in. I'll keep it at the back of my mind as I dig deeper into the car in the months ahead, and if it's an easy fit if/when the time comes, for a switch and a couple of relays, then I'll consider it.

A/C would be another 'nice to have'.... it's fitted but doesn't work. Probably empty. But it's not at the top of the list for just now.

For the moment, I'll just be happy when I can use it again without the passenger having to use wellies!

Well, another interesting day.

In essence though, I've decided that I'm near 100% certain the windscreen on the car is original - it's certainly got the LR logo on it; the sealant bead around the screen is just too neat and perfect to be anything else but 'factory'; and most conclusively I got a really quick reply from LR customer services with a 'build sheet' for my car. As I expected, "no heated seats/windscreen".

I've also realised that what I thought was a heated screen switch on the HEVAC unit is actually the 'windscreen demist programme' button. Doh! Hey - it's got a windscreen icon on it!

Having taken all of the plenum/scuttle panels off, the plugs for the heated screen are there (two white plugs - left and right - on top of the pollen filter housing cover?) so I guess this means the wiring is likely to be there to the back of the HEVAC unit?? Maybe one day, if I feel the need it could be an option - perhaps if I ever need to replace the current screen courtesy of my insurance company. I looked at it very carefully, but there are no nicks or cracks and though I sometimes think I'm daft, I'm just not the kind of guy to take a stone to it on purpose.

So this is where I got to today:

I got the bottom windscreen trim off...... without breaking any of the X clips, which I was amazed and delighted about; and I've ordered a bunch of black, stainless self tappers for when I put it all back together again with sealant in all the relevant places.

So I don't feel that I'm a lot further forward to be honest, but for a few hours work today and yesterday I reckon I know for sure where (one!) of the leaks is coming from, and I have an oppurtunity to to a pre-emptive strike on all the other likely spots around the pollen filter housings.

Someone has been in before me, and the plenum foam filter has been replaced with a double layer of small wire mesh - but I can't understand why they didn't then do the little row of extra holes on either side?? I'll tackle that before I put it back together, as we back onto a forest so there's a dump of leaves and needles every year.

I also know that when the screen fitter comes round, all of the strip down is done for him, so it should be pretty straightforward.

Next thing will be to try and get the roof lining off to investigate the sunroof....

This is the picture I mentioned above. It's just something I lifted off the web somewhere because it was supposed to be a 'common P38 issue'. I don't actually think it will be that common because otherwise there would be loads of pics of this - and I could only find this one.

But anyway - just in case it helps.

This is just where the roof seam (under the trim strip) meets the windscreen aperture.

I have a picture of what I think Chris is talking about - but unfortunately because I'm on an older iPad just now, I can't put it onto imgur to upload here. Maybe later on the desktop.

Basically though, the longitudinal (front to rear) trims on both sides of the roof conceal a body weld. Where the welded panels fold down to the windscreen aperture, a hole can appear. I guess it could be the famour LR build tolerances. This hole is on the outside of the car.

I think you'd need the roofrail trims and windscreen top trim off to see it properly?

You might, or might not have this hole. I went looking for this precise thing on the passenger side yesterday as I thought it would be an easy fix. What I found was that my windscreen is no longer sealed to the car.

I'll be out soon excavating the driver's side and the scuttle panel....